2014 Skate Canada Short Dance 10/31

[Skater Boy]

Just curious, what Weaver/Poje does better than Chock/Bates in spanish dance? All I see other than elements is couple of small lifts done while music jumps/high (Weaver/Poje 1, Weaver/Poje 2 Chock/Bates 1), girls turning on the ice while music jumps (Weaver/Poje, Chock/Bates, Chock/Bates), arms snapping while music jumps. (Weaver, Weaver 2, Chock) There is several more arm snapping in both programs, from both men and lady. They are not big movements, so I couldn't list every one of them. Point is choreograpchly I can't see different approach to spanish dance, don't think one is better than the other.

I never said Chock/Bates better than Weaver/Poje. I don't like both team's music choices, especially in paso doble sequences. I can't get into this kind of spanish (!?) music.:disapp:

Chock and Bates may win world's. I know I am in the minority but I find them a good team but far overrated. they may get the levels but I think they over marked skating skills and performance. Yeah Madison is a diva but not of the former Russian great or the natural skills for Davis or Virture. Moreover, I think Chock and Bates are really the benefactor of perfect timing. Probably if B and S weren't injured and I and K had stayed together those two teams would be fighitng for medals with the Italians and Canadians. they happen to be skating without Davis and white and V and M but they are the top american team. I give them the plus that they do skate cleaner usually than W and P and the Shibs. but they somehow for whatever reason get the benefit of the doubt even from the public perception ie Madison's hair - kind of looked straggly and not like a well blown out bob at Skate American imho. They have the momentum it would appear to win gold, the public and the judges. But so far they seem to me more of a lucky team (there are a lot of teams that work h ard)> with some talent but really itis jus tthe right time and chemistry as to what is going on Now I am wondering if the sktaing world has room for a russian team to move ahead of them. right now they appear neck and neck with the Italians and Canadians.

 

[dress]

Yesterday, I found the short dance of a lot of couples boring. Paso Doble and spanish flamenco are very intense dance. It's not supposed to be dance wearing a generic smile from start to finish. I love W/P et H/D short dances the most.

Some men just disapear. They are suppose to be a matador not a pale tasteless figure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGHd9Q79ACU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEyD96FQyNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD7Tr6p8HQo

 

[brushalley]

Looking at just GP scores.

oops sorry :

 

[sisinka]

Kaitlyn Weaver & Andrew Poje:

Paso Doble Pattern: Level 3 - Andrew didn’t get Key Point 2 with Open Mohawk counted. Lovely edges during Key Point 1, it was pleasant to watch. Andrew didn’t properly lift his free leg after slide steps, but Key Point 1 was still counted. During Key Point 2 opening edge in Mohawk – Left Forward Outside was not done properly, second edge – Right Backward Inside was done greatly.

Partial Paso Doble Step Sequence: Level 4 – all Key Points done. Once again lovely edges, but once again almost no visible lift of free leg by Andrew.

Not touching Step Sequence: some nice edges, but some edges – maybe about 3 edges were not clearly recognizable and especially during One Foot Section it could hurt them not having “kind“ Technical panel. They should make edges deeper to give no space for doubts.

Twizzles: I like them very much, they improved in it. Very nice ice coverage. In some moments I am not sure whether Kaitlyn does not execute rather three turns instead of Twizzle, but it is so so. Good camera angle from side with visible continuous moving trough rotations.

(Notice how Kaitlyn and Andrew are moving in every half rotation especially during first Set of Twizzles when speed is already on…and compare it with Alexandra and Ivan’s Sit Twizzles from slow motion in Skate America FD, where is visible that Sasha & Ivan are moving only during one half of rotation while during second half they are rotating on one place – this is why I say that they don’t execute a Twizzle).

BUT one thing towards Twizzles – the rules say that Feature from Group A and B (which means leg and arm position) must be kept for full four rotations to get Level 4. This doesn’t mean that four rotations in the Set of Twizzles are enough, because you need some about half rotation to get into the position and some half rotation when you are already doing an exit. So during first Set of Twizzles Andrew & Kaitlyn started lift their free leg, but the position was fixed about a half rotation later…then they kept free leg in fixed position for three and half rotations and then the leg went into exit position – so they didn’t fulfill criteria for Level 4 in this Feature. They should get Twizzles Level 3 only.

Andrew works with free leg better, there is still a space for improvement.

As to presentation:
I love the beginning of the dance a lot – it has drama, quite good level of passion (there is still a space for improvement) and there is majesty of Spanish dancers. I would keep that majesty during Step Sequence where it slowly dissapears and it looks like more concentrating on edges – well, you must concentrate, but keep the Spanish look there also.

Nice Paso Doble + Partial Step Sequence part – it needs to be sharper in future, especially during the Pattern.

In the last part of the dance Kaitlyn needs to strenghten her upper body to get more Spanish look. The same I described in Maia’s case – be more sure of what are you doing and don’t hesitate whether it is right or wrong – Spanish dancers never hesitate.

Overall very good dance with great potential to be sparkling at the end of the season.

 

[sisinka]

Ksenia Monko & Kirill Khaliavin:

Paso Doble Pattern: Level 3 – Key Point 1 not counted. Very good edges, partly great edges.

I don’t see any reason why first Paso Doble Pattern – Key Point 1 (this one for both Man and Lady steps) didn’t get Yes, because all edges were done very well. The only one thing could go in direction of Kirill – he lifted his free leg after slide steps only a little bit (but Andrew had the same minor lift of the free leg and the couple got Yes for Key Point 1, and Paul Poirier didn’t execute even small lift of free leg in this step and he also got Yes). I don’t see any reason why the couple didn’t get Level 4 for first Pattern.

Partial Paso Doble Step Sequence: Level 3 – Key Point 1 not done. These are steps for Lady only. Once again I don’t see a reason for not counting…Ksenia executed all edges cleanly and even from slow motion and different camera angle it is visible. (Piper Gilles, Sasha Aldredge got that Key Point counted not having better edges…)

Not touching Step Sequence: Ksenia – good and great edges, Kirill – good and great edges. For both of them the only not visible second edge was during last Rocker already close to the boards. This probably caused Level 3, otherwise it was a hard attack on Level 4.

Piruette during second Set of Twizzles from Ksenia (which means one Level down). More difficult execution of Twizzles while holding the skates during the second Set instead of first Set (where is certainly more time for preparation for this position). Good sychro. Needs to work on Twizzles to look more sure in it.

As to presentation:
Yes, Kirill is so much into the dance, but less mimics would be a better choice, which I would prefer to see.

Last season the couple especially Ksenia skated with upper body bent forward, this is visibly corrected a lot this season. Let’s continue in it.

I like so much to see close holds and dance holds not only when it counts (in Paso steps), but also in Transitions. I know that many couples avoids this because it is more difficult, but this is also what is dancing about – dance holds.

Ksenia & Kirill are very passionate dancers and they showed it once again. They skated Spanish dance already in juniors and were very good in it.

Their Paso Doble Pattern and Partial Step Sequence is the best so far – they are sharp, passionate, strong and they skate without any doubts – that is how it should look like. (I notice not only here that many couples prefer to concentrate for right edges and skate more or less carefully during Pattern – it puts down whole presentation of the dance than).

From overall expression I would like the see more Spanish arm movements, better head posture from both.

 

[Matilda]

Yesterday, I found the short dance of a lot of couples boring. Paso Doble and spanish flamenco are very intense dance. It's not supposed to be dance wearing a generic smile from start to finish. I love W/P et H/D short dances the most.

Some men just disapear. They are suppose to be a matador not a pale tasteless figure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGHd9Q79ACU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEyD96FQyNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD7Tr6p8HQo

I agree. So far my two favorite teams this season. I just fear that H/D get constantly underscored simply because they can't do the crazy over-the-shoulder rotational lifts that most lighter teams do. I find their skating very fluid--soft, soft knees and deep edges--and they have wonderful musicality.

To me H/D are almost in par with C/B and better than the Shibs. Pasquale does not have the same clout with USFS as Marina or Igor, however. And this is my biggest problem with figure skating overall: the coache's relationship with or clout within the fed should play no part in judging--but we all know it does. I hate it End of rant.

 

[sisinka]

Madison Hubbell & Zachary Donohue:

Paso Doble Pattern: Level 2 – only Key Point 2 counted. During Key Point 1 Zachary completely ignores the lifting of free leg and when stepping on the Right Foot after slide steps, it takes him some time until he gets Outside edge there. Key Point 2 executed with invisible opening edge in Mohawk and very slight second edges, strict Technical Panel would not count this. In Key Point 3 all edges looked well except for last Madison’s step Left Backward Inside edge which was not seen thanks to bad camera angle.

Partial Paso Doble Step Sequence: Level 2 – only Key Point 3 counted. Key Point 1 – Madison didn’t keep Timing. Key Point 2 – Zachary again doesn’t lift his free leg properly. Key Point 3 – nicely done.

Not touching Step Sequence: Nice edges, some of them very good. Madison’s Bracket didn’t have visible opening edge, last Counter with not very visible second edge – once again a turn which is close to the boards and means this last turn is not done properly (like in case of Monko & Khaliavin). Zachary – Mohawk with not visible edges, Bracket with light edges, One Foot section – Bracket OK, Counter with not very good second edge, Double Twizzle OK, last Rocker with lovely edges. After a jump Zachary executes Chocktaw with no second edge and immediately goes into last step – Counter with not very visible second edge like in Madison’s case. Thanks to Zachary I am surprised that the couple got Level 3 and not Level 2, there is a very kind Technical Panel to them.

I love how is the couple able to make two difficult turns following with Double Twizzle on one foot and then keeping the speed continues on the same foot with another difficult turn – this is an example of very good Skating Skills – but all edges in One Foot Section should be clear.

Twizzles: Out of synchro in all Sets. Leg position fixed for four and half rotations in the first Set, but during the second Set of Twizzles the moment when arm position was fixed until moment when arms went down – it was less then four rotations (so they should loose Level 4 thanks to it). Piruette by Madison during second Set of Twizzles (which means one Level down). I liked first Set a lot, there was nice ice coverage in it. But thanks to arm position not held long enough and Madison’s Piruette – they should get Level 2.

As to presentation:
I was dissapointed. I remember their Flamenco FD skated about two seasons ago and it was quite good. So I expected that they will start this SD from the presentation of that FD and improve it. It didn’t happen yet.

I saw nothing Spanish in Madison’s presentation, all the time I saw an American woman using some Spanish gestures, but Spanish feeling was not there for me.

I like Zachary’s upper body posture, if more dancers would be like that, Ice Dance would suddenly have more elegant male dancers. The body posture still needs an improvement to get that “macho“ look, but it is on a good way.

Overall the program looks pale and not too Spanish despite Spanish choreography. The couple stays behind music in expression. But I realise that it is the beginning of the season and this was their first competition.

 

[sisinka]

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier:

The couple executes first Paso Doble Pattern and then enters Partial Step Sequence and suddenly Piper goes on the other side – being on the Paul’s left hand and in this position the couple executes Key Point 1 and 2. This is against rules.

The description of Paso Doble dance speaks about: “Steps 1 to 15 are skated in outside hold with the lady to the man’s right.“ Key Points 1 and 2 are steps 8 to 12. Also in Partial Step Sequence there is a requirement: “Key Points 1 (Lady) and 2 (Man) must be skated together approximately at the same place as Key Point 1 of the Pattern Dance Element.“ In both these cases Piper and Paul didn’t fulfill this requirements, they changed side in those Key Points. But what happened? Nothing. Partial Step Sequence was counted like nothing would happen.

So, some couples must go with rules and if they don’t, they are punished…while other couples may do what they want and they get points for it.

I take their SD like very original dance, I like their originality, but I don’t appreciate it like Spanish dance. I don’t see much Spanish inside of their movements, just skating to Spanish music and trying to portrait a cape all the time. I also think that Christopher Dean is a great choreographer, but I can’t help but during the dance I see much more Chris Dean than Piper or Paul. Paul is not very visible like matador. And watching Piper, she is exactly what they announced – a cape. I know that this is what is Paso Doble about – man and his cape, but I can’t help and I personally prefer to see a woman dancing into Spanish music, instead of the cape moving across the ice. But this is my personal opinion only.

(But I didn’t mind this watching Torvill & Dean, so maybe the interpretation of Piper and Paul is not that strong yet. Or rules changed so much since the time T&D skated it, that it is simply impossible to create the same atmosphere)

 

[sisinka]

Sara Hurtado & Adria Diaz:

Technique still needs to be improved, it is mainly visible in Not Touching Step Sequence.

I think that not getting Key Point 2 in Paso Pattern could be caused by Adria who didn’t execute correctly crossed step behind in step 15 before the Open Mohawk. During Partial Step Sequence Sara didn’t execute an edge in Step 11 – Right Backward Inside edge was not there.

Twizzles: Sara needs to strenghthen her upper body especially back more to be able to balance Twizzles better. Nice first Set.

As to presentation:
Yes, yes and yes! This is how is should look like talking about Spanish dance.

I know that some people will say that it is logical because they are Spanish, but I don’t agree. Sonia Lafuente or Javier Fernandez wouldn’t dance like that, although they are Spanish as well.

The idea of Sara becaming bull is greatly interpreted on the ice without any big spacing or too funny moments which would destroy Spanish feeling.

The whole dance is full of passion, drama, tension. This is great. The only thing which I would like to see improving is the last part of the dance. Since Sara tranforms from the bull into the Spanish woman, she should be more self-confident, more passionate and sharp, no hesitating. The same for Adria at the end of the program. If the lack of physical condition causes that the couple can’t skate on 100% to the end, they should focus on it also.

This is Short Dance which is in my top 3 until this moment. And I believe that this dance will be a Highlight at European and World Championships.

 

[sisinka]

So, how Technical panel‘s work looked during SD?

The most supported team by Technical panel were probably Hubbell & Donohue. They got Twizzles Level 4, while Technical specialist didn’t notice lack of rotations in arm position and completely ignored Madison’s Piruette (while Ksenia Monko’s Piruette was punished like it should be) – so the American couple should get Level 2. Zachary’s problems with edges during Not Touching Step Sequence didn’t the panel from giving Level 3 there (for getting Level 3 each partner must execute 7 clean difficult turns).

W&P got one Twizzles Level 4, although they didn’t keep free leg position long enough, so they should get Level 3 only.

M&K didn’t get all Levels in Key Points, while the level of execution was no way worse than level of execution of W&P or G&P who got that certain Key Point counted.

G&P executed Key Point 1 and 2 during Partial Paso Doble Step Sequence in not required position and they got no deduction and Key Points were counted like normally done.

And how judges worked?

Skating Skills: W&P – 8.61 points, G&P – 7.64 points, Z&G – 7.43 points, H&D – 7.39 points, M&K – 7.25 points, H&Diaz – 6.25 points

I totally don’t agree with Skating Skills marks. And this is not funny, really. Analysing Pattern and Step Sequences – Monko & Khaliavin and Weaver & Poje were the best technicians here, I would slightly prefer Russians this time. Hubbell & Donohue have very good technique, but Zachary was in trouble with more edges this time plus the couple is not that fast (but I appreciate less jumps and hoops). Gilles & Poirier are no way better technicians than Hubbell & Donohue. And I would be in serious trouble who has better Skating Skills – Zhiganshina & Gazsi or Hurtado & Diaz.

How it could happen that Skating Skills mark finished like above? In case of Piper and Nelli – the more mistakes in elements, the higher Skating Skills? This is not how it should be counted. Even with clean skate Piper & Paul would be behind top 3 couples in “real“ Skating Skills. And 7.43 points for Nelli & Alex who are still executing regular three turns instead of Twizzles and whose technique is not good even in the eyes of no skating specialists? Does really those couple deserve higher Skating Skills than Monko and Hubbell?

Performance/Execution: W&P – 8.89 points, Z&G – 7.79 points, H&D – 7.71 points, G&P – 7.68 points, M&K – 7.39 points, H&Diaz – 6.64 points

Choreography: W&P – 8.71 points, G&P – 7.89 points, Z&G – 7.82 points, H&D – 7.61 points, M&K – 7.36 points, H&Diaz - 6.68 points

Interpretation/Timing: W&P – 8.71 points, H&D and G&P and Z&G – 7.68 points, M&K – 7.39 points, H&Diaz – 6.61 points

I believe that Performance where a couple shows their physical, emotional and intellectual involvement and they translate the intent of the music and the choreography. This can be explained many ways – cape was a cape, Nelli & Alex story was portrait also, Spanish dance was shown by W&P, passion was there with M&K – OK. But how can judges compare that for example M&K‘s involvement was worse than Z&G, and how judges realised that H&Diaz‘s involvement was less strong than G&P’s involvement?

Top choreography suitable for Spanish dance was shown mainly by W&P and H&Diaz.

Interpretation like the expression of the music rhythm and character went to H&Diaz on the first place, than W&P, passionate character puts M&K above H&D and Z&G.

In what moment Z&G’s SD became a Spanish dance I have no idea. Where high Components which should judged the Spanish character of the dance came from, I don’t know.

I also don’t get why Hurtado & Diaz are not getting over 9 points for Performance, Choreography and Interpretation.

Overall once again judges work was under question (with exception of W&P where marks looked appropriate). We can say that there was a visible attempt to “save“ couples who made some major mistake giving them much higher Components than they would deserve.
Monko & Khaliavin and Hubbell & Donohue may only regret that they skated without major mistake, because they lost high components thanks to it.

 

[Matilda]

Thanks for the careful breakdown of the dances, sisinka!

 

[Snow63]

In what moment Z&G’s SD became a Spanish dance I have no idea. Where high Components which should judged the Spanish character of the dance came from, I don’t know.
-------------
I also don’t get why Hurtado & Diaz are not getting over 9 points for Performance, Choreography and Interpretation.

I 100% agree with that. Exactly my thoughts, every word.

And thanks again, sisinka. I'm not very good with technical stuff, especially SD patterns. But I'm learning somehing new from your posts every time

 

[lmarie086]

Adding my thanks for your analysis, sisinka. I was really perplexed about the scoring on the skating skills for G/P and Z/G. They should not have been ahead of American H/D (and after rewatching their performance having read your analysis, I do see a lot of room to improve, and the choreography needs work). I didn't know that you couldn't switch sides on the Paso, but I'm surprised again that G/P weren't marked down on that. Their score was pretty generous.

Spanish H/D should be routinely topping the field in choreography, interpretation and performance. Their SD stood out the most for me last night. As they continue to improve H/D will be a team to reckon with.

M/K definitely had the passionate character and technique but I thought they had no relation to the music and his expression was just way too much.

 

[NorthernDancers]

Thank you, sisinka! I understand a little better why M/K received the marks they did. While they may hit the key points technically, I didn't like very much of anything else about them. They need deeper knees and edges, they need better postures and mannerisms to interpret the dance. And they need new costumes. What part of that was Paso Doble? On the other hand, I can see why Hurtado/Diaz may have been marked down technically, but they should be getting the 2nd highest PCS in this event. The whole program was expertly conceived, fascinating to watch, and a real Spanish dance. Loved it. I liked Hubbell/Donohue. They will be helped greatly by showing the character of the Spanish dance through their packaging and mannerisms more. I think Gilles/Poirier need a different choreographer that can better integrate the fun and innovative side of this team with their own style and new judging system. Right now, they just look gimmicky - they skate fast with questionable quality and lots of gimmicks. Speaking of creativity, I respect what the Germans are trying to do, but it looked really off and unstable. I think W/P were the all around best, Hub/Don should be 2nd, and then maybe M/K because of the technical, but then Hurtado/Diaz and Gilles/Poirier.

 

[dorispulaski]

NorthernDancers, I agree on all counts.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Me, too, ND!

I'm glued to this , but pressed for time ,posting-wise. H/D..I adore this program.. (and their FD, too )

Sisinka .. very interesting and informative.. thanks.

ETA: Z/G seem to be trying to chanel some of the classic Saura flamenco films.. the trouble is ,if you're going to use "street" costume it's even more important to express Spanish styling.

 

[Mescalin at Mezzanin]

Piper Gilles & Paul Poirier:

The description of Paso Doble dance speaks about: “Steps 1 to 15 are skated in outside hold with the lady to the man’s right.“ Key Points 1 and 2 are steps 8 to 12. Also in Partial Step Sequence there is a requirement: “Key Points 1 (Lady) and 2 (Man) must be skated together approximately at the same place as Key Point 1 of the Pattern Dance Element.“ In both these cases Piper and Paul didn’t fulfill this requirements, they changed side in those Key Points. But what happened? Nothing. Partial Step Sequence was counted like nothing would happen.

To clearify this rule: "Approximately at the same place" refers to the placement of the Key Points on the ice surface. That means that the three defined Key Points must be placed approx. at the same place on the ice like they are shown in the Pattern Dance Element before. However, this rule doesnt say anything about the position of the man and the lady, so they are allowed to change sides and perform the Key Points in the Partial Step Sequence on a different side.

 

[meem]

G/P looked as tho' they were channeling Torville & Dean's '84 Olympic FD. If we see Poirier start grabbing Gilles by the back of her neck, we'll know Christopher Dean has taken complete control as their Svengali. It was more than Gilles swirling around as "the cape"; it also was the way they held themselves in certain sections, almost rigid...so much like the way Dean skated. I just don't like seeing skaters imitating former skaters (e.g., last year's SP of Javier...he skated exactly like a young Brian Orser, complete with those little hops that Brian always used).

 

[sisinka]

To clearify this rule: "Approximately at the same place" refers to the placement of the Key Points on the ice surface. That means that the three defined Key Points must be placed approx. at the same place on the ice like they are shown in the Pattern Dance Element before. However, this rule doesnt say anything about the position of the man and the lady, so they are allowed to change sides and perform the Key Points in the Partial Step Sequence on a different side.

I know but even approximately on the same place should also mean a position of partners, because Key Point 1 means lady steps only (which are not done on the same place thanks to another side) and Key Point 2 means man steps only (once again it is done on another place).

You probably mean that it should be done on the same side of the rink and this is enough, I don’t think so. And probably most of couples and their choreographers don’t think so, when they didn’t use it.

I also pointed to another rule which describes Paso Doble like a dance and there is strictly explained that lady skates to the man’s right. Try to imagine how would Tango dance look like if sides would be changed – probably whole Ballroom world would become mad. And we can continue and say that Waltz will be done in Killian hold…why not, when you even don’t need to keep sides beside your partner in Paso Doble.

So even if Technical panel would be so kind once again and not take approximately like “approximately“….there would be still a rule about Paso Doble requirements, which says: ”Steps 1 to 15 are skated in outside hold with the lady to the man’s right.”

 

[Mescalin at Mezzanin]

First of all: Its definitley not a thing for the Technical Panel. They dont have to take any action on that. The placement of the Key Points must be evaluated by the judges (s. Handbook for Judges and Referees, Page 36, point 7).

Positions in Paso Doble: Of course, the positions are fixed in the Pattern Dance Element "Paso Doble". But not for the Partial Step S., thats the difference. The steps are fixed, but not the holds (s. Handbook, Page 6).

And there are even Killian holds included in Ice Dance Waltz Pattern Dances, e.g. Westminster Waltz, Starlight Waltz, Golden Waltz etc.

About one point, there could be disussions, you are right: Because if they change sides because of a different hold, they are not able to do the KP on the same placement like the PDE. But maybe thats the reason why they used the word "approximately" in the discription.