2015 Mordovian Ornament Ladies SP and Free Skate

[Meoima]

You've completely taken my argument out of context.
What i'm saying is it's not a good path to make this about the question wether PBs and WRs are appropriate anymore,
That derives the conversations from the real problem here: Biased marking in official competitions
It's kinda like arguing 6.0 vs. COP, Yes you can argue about it but the system is not the thing that matters most, It's who's operating it.

Did the rightful winner win? Yes, it's Anna.

Were the scores too high if we compare them to other competitions? Yes.

Can we compare the scores from competition to competition? This is the issue. Because 140 of Anna couldn't be compare to 140 of Mao in another competition. So by looking at these numbers it does not mean that Anna at her best is as good as Mao at her best. But the judges can always say this: "Mao was not here in the same competition to be compare."

So how do we solve this? ISU should take into account that, scores in competition A shouldn't be compared to scores in competition Z. So There should be no comparison, no personal best, no world record. And judges should take note (or are informed) that not all 90s are the same, not all 70s are the same, that in fact these numbers should be just used for placements, and as long as placements are ok according to general people, it's acceptable.

But we all know that Personal Best and World Record list are used for commercial purpose. And this kind of taking big numbers for granted is the main reason for reputation judging. Scores of the previous competition affect scores of the next competitions and so on. This is the biggest issue I have with the current system.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not trying to argue anything. I just wanted to state my feelings and let it be known. IMO the way to fix this situation is to remove power from the judges. Right now if we consider PB's as meaningful then the judges have a certain power. It's my opinion that it will be more productive to reduce or remove that power than to control human nature. On this I think we agree.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I'm so tired

Can we all just go out and eat some cake?

 

[hurrah]

I'm interested to see who will become the next president of ISU. If it turns out to be the French guy who was at the center of the first scandal, public perception would see it as proof that figure skating continues to be as corrupt as the internet says---regardless of whether there's any truth to that or not.

I actually have no idea why figure skating can't be judged with a bit more neutrality and accountability? I would think that it's in everyone's interest to keep figure skating in the Olympics??

 

[YesWay]

Shortest solution to me would be to not count the scores from senior Bs (fancy Challenger Series name now or whatever) as official scores.

Sad to say, I am inclined to agree with this ^ after the results of this particular competition :-/

But I'd go further and say the same about the Olympics too - the scores go crazy and I've long thought they shouldn't be counted. And I'm not just talking about Sochi, it was just as crazy at Vancouver if not more so, and I fully expect silly scores in 2018 too.

Perhaps Mordovian Ornament organisers are ensuring the financial success of their competition - all skaters will want to go there in future, since they can all increase their personal bests, and possibly set new world records (albeit such things are being made meaningless by this kind of scoring). The organisers can then pick and choose among the top skaters and charge nice prices for tickets...

So how do we solve this? ISU should take into account that, scores in competition A shouldn't be compared to scores in competition Z. So There should be no comparison, no personal best, no world record. And judges should take note (or are informed) that not all 90s are the same, not all 70s are the same, that in fact these numbers should be just used for placements, and as long as placements are ok according to general people, it's acceptable.

Logical. But too much like ordinal 6.0 system?

 

[hurrah]

To admit that the scores of the most important event of the sport are 'silly' is basically to admit that figure skating has no right to be in the said-event---the Olympics.

Perhaps Mordovian Ornament organisers are ensuring the financial success of their competition - all skaters will want to go there in future, since they can all increase their personal bests, and possibly set new world records. The organisers can then pick and choose among the top skaters and charge nice prices for tickets...

Wow. That is really... problematic....

 

[Mista Ekko]

I actually have no idea why figure skating can't be judged with a bit more neutrality and accountability? I would think that it's in everyone's interest to keep figure skating in the Olympics??

If judges were paid, And hired through an organised body,
Then anonymity could be abolished and maybe that might be a good start

 

[YesWay]

To admit that the scores of the most important event of the sport are 'silly' is basically to admit that figure skating has no right to be in the said-event---the Olympics.

No, it only admits that scoring gets inflated at Olympics...

 

[hurrah]

If judges were paid, And hired through an organised body,
Then anonymity could be abolished and maybe that might be a good start

Yes, get rid of anonymous judging for a start!

And as things stand now, ISU will have no choice but to overhaul COP again as soon as the next Olympics finishes because the scores are inflating at an astronomical rate, when 80pcs is the upper limit. And such overhauling will just be another confirmation that figure skating is a corrupt sport.

Mordovian Bubble has suddenly used up a good portion of inflation potential, and we've still got three more seasons until the next Olympics. Good luck judges with your inflation!

 

[Li'Kitsu]

If judges were paid, And hired through an organised body,
Then anonymity could be abolished and maybe that might be a good start

How would payment change what it is you mean with 'suspicious' judging?
And kind of worse... it begs the question, can the ISU afford to pay the judges?

 

[Meoima]

Logical. But too much like ordinal 6.0 system?

Well actually it has been half 6.0 and half of...whatever you can think of. Of course all systems have flaws, but logically the best way I can think of at the moment is for ISU to admit and declare that scores in different competitions should not be compared. 40 PCS in a low level competition is not the same as 36 PCS in a top level competition.

Erase all the personal best and world record etc...

 

[hurrah]

Well actually it has been half 6.0 and half of...whatever you can think of. Of course all systems have flaws, but logically the best way I can think of at the moment is for ISU to admit and declare that scores in different competitions should not be compared. 40 PCS in a low level competition is not the same as 36 PCS in a top level competition.

Erase all the personal best and world record etc...

I doubt ISU would realistically do such a thing? For ISU to make such an official declaration is to admit that the scoring system is not reliable, that the system can't actually tell who is a superior skater and who's not, and that alot of who wins according to what score is determined by the whim of the moment + politics + money speaking, not necessarily in that order, which ISU cannot admit to if figure skating is to stay in the Olympics.

 

[Mista Ekko]

How would payment change what it is you mean with 'suspicious' judging?
And kind of worse... it begs the question, can the ISU afford to pay the judges?

Because by not getting payed you can't force them to relinquish their anonymity, You need them to show up right?

I think the question is does the ISU WANT to pay the judges

 

[Mista Ekko]

I doubt ISU would realistically do such a thing? For ISU to make such an official declaration is to admit that the scoring system is not reliable, that the system can't actually tell who is a superior skater and who's not, and that alot of who wins according to what score is determined by the whim of the moment + politics + money speaking, not necessarily in that order, which ISU cannot admit to if figure skating is to stay in the Olympics.

If a handful of judges and Tech panel personal can just decide to do what they want at some event and the ISU is gonna just let that happen then maybe
right now the judging of this sport is not empirical enough to qualify as olympic, It's an issue that was always debated, And probably wouldn't have
been if it wasn't for that kind of behaviour, That's why it's bad for the sport.

Now it seems that the preferred method of dealing with this by the ISU and IOC is to brush stuff like this off as quickly as possible,
As to not allow it to become a scandal that undermines them or the sport, Which sends a message that the system could be abused
every distant now and then and nothing would happen, So the people who suffer the most are teams and skaters who are on the
wrong side of this, And of course the fans.

 

[mermaid]

An article about "fake scores" in Saransk if anyone is interested:

http://www.championat.com/other/article-233050-turnir-po-figurnomu-kataniju-v-saranske.html

 

[hurrah]

Poor Adelina, honestly.

 

[hurrah]

If a handful of judges and Tech panel personal can just decide to do what they want at some event and the ISU is gonna just let that happen then maybe
right now the judging of this sport is not empirical enough to qualify as olympic, It's an issue that was always debated, And probably wouldn't have
been if it wasn't for that kind of behaviour, That's why it's bad for the sport.

Now it seems that the preferred method of dealing with this by the ISU and IOC is to brush stuff like this off as quickly as possible,
As to not allow it to become a scandal that undermines them or the sport, Which sends a message that the system could be abused
every distant now and then and nothing would happen, So the people who suffer the most are teams and skaters who are on the
wrong side of this, And of course the fans.

Well, I still think that at the end of the day, ISU will have to deal with this inflation business, quite simply because CoP scoring is not like the world economy, there is---thankfully---a set upper limit of 80 that can't be changed. So it will, most likely sooner rather than later, become an ISU problem.

And so I'm kind of glad in a sense that there's so little leeway for inflation left now, and we still have two and a half year until the next Olympics! It would be quite funny if all the skaters started getting 80 PCS by the time Olympics rolls around.

And then it would come down to who has the highest base score, whereby skaters who can do triple-axels and the more difficult triple-triples will automatically win! arty:

 

[YesWay]

For ISU to make such an official declaration is to admit that the scoring system is not reliable, that the system can't actually tell who is a superior skater and who's not

No, it is to admit that you can't judge who is a superior skater using absolute scores from separate competitions. Which we already knew.

The system (scores) can only tell who is superior within a single competition. And yes, they can tell.

Your "... is to admit" claims are illogical.
Non sequiturs.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Poor Adelina, honestly.

It's true,

On the upside she's having a great career i think

 

[beebee51]

Lots of valid points being made here. I'd like to raise another issue (forgive me if it's already been mentioned). There are different numbers of judges at different comps.

I believe the major ones have nine judges, Challenger events seven judges, and other Senior Bs five judges. In my mind this surely has an effect on the scores. If there are five judges are the highest and lowest scores still thrown out? That would mean the scores of only three judges determine the results.