2015 Mordovian Ornament Ladies SP and Free Skate

[jenaj]

Do skaters get anything besides bragging rights for the Challenger Series/B events rankings?

 

[AlexRus]

The bigger point is that by using a SB list for these competitions, ISU IS comparing scores across competitions. If they really want to send the message that you shouldn't compare scores between competitions, they shouldn't provide lists of SB/PBs then.

Scores must be comparable? Yes, I also want it very much.

Let us compare - Kostner at Worlds-2014 and Sotnikova few days ago.
Both deserve high PCS, both have great titles.
Both skated SP good, and in FS both had 4 triples. Base value in FS is about the same - 47.43 Caro, 48.44 Adelina.
Total score is very close - 203.83 Caro, 203.89 Adelina.
Similar level of skaters, similar skating and mistakes, the same score.

We see - Italian at Worlds in Japan and Russian in Russia have the same scores for the same skating.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Because by not getting payed you can't force them to relinquish their anonymity, You need them to show up right?

I think the question is does the ISU WANT to pay the judges

I'm not quite sure payment is a definite way to get the judges to relinquish their anonymity either though.
And while I'm definitely against anonymous judging too, it's not the perfect answer either. In this event we have 7 judges, and all of them went overboard with the scores. So you can pick any name of the judges list and say "he/she did a bad job/was biased" or something similar. Doesn't seem to bother the judges.

 

[hurrah]

I'm not quite sure payment is a definite way to get the judges to relinquish their anonymity either though.
And while I'm definitely against anonymous judging too, it's not the perfect answer either. In this event we have 7 judges, and all of them went overboard with the scores. So you can pick any name of the judges list and say "he/she did a bad job/was biased" or something similar. Doesn't seem to bother the judges.

I think judges should be positively encouraged to inflate scores whenever and wherever possible, so that everyone is getting the highest PCS possible, so that the competition simply becomes a spinning and jumping contest. ISU would deserve that. The judges would deserve that. The skaters wouldn't, of course, but hey, being a Mao fan, if the competition became a spinning and jumping contest, Mao would win that competition, too (and she'd win the PCS competition, too, if figure skating were that), so do I personally care that much? Not really.

But in the interesting of trying to keep figure skating a judged contest about figure skating... I don't know why ISU can't punish a whole judging panel when there has been such blatant overscoring as was the case here. All these judges could be punished by not being invited to participate in other ISU competitions for the next six months or so. Someone might argue against doing that because if it turns out that judges from certain parts of the world, Russia, for example, are always scoring badly, then that would lead to a problem in that there would be a scarcity of judges representing Russia. But then, so what if judges panel ends up looking all-American, or all-Japanese, or whatever? The Russian federation only have themselves to blame for organized cheating in the first place.

Or here's another idea, how about a fine? ISU will individually pay judges, but they will also retain the right to financially fine an individual judge if he/she scores badly. Maybe that might incentivize the judges to score more accurately. Yes, actually, that's a really brilliant idea, if I say so myself. I mean, according to how they judge, skaters' financial situation does usually change in terms of prize money and what not, so I don't know why judges shouldn't also be held accountable in financial terms.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Of course the ISU could punish a whole judging panel... at least until we run out of judges.

So you want to fine judges for bad judging - what is bad judging? We have an obvious case here, but how many cases actually are? Where do you draw the line for punishing someone for doing something wrong in a sport where it's quite impossible to find an objective right? Also, isn't the 'corridor judging' already seen as a problem? What if judges, mainly trying not to be punished, would start to go even more by expectations instead of what they really see on the ice?

And couldn't those fines be abused too, if the sport was so corrupt? I think I'll just go with the point I don't like the idea of fining the judges. Paying them? Yes, but not just to be able to take it away if someone disagrees with you. If a judge is obviously corrupt and part of a scandal, ban them, but take their money away and let them continue to judge makes it even more likely they'll get bribed, IMO.

 

[ice coverage]

Do skaters get anything besides bragging rights for the Challenger Series/B events rankings?

Challenger prize money is at stake.

Those at the top of the Challenger rankings after completion of the series receive prize money.
Top three (IIRC) skaters/pairs/couples in each discipline.

 

[hurrah]

Of course the ISU could punish a whole judging panel... at least until we run out of judges.

So you want to fine judges for bad judging - what is bad judging? We have an obvious case here, but how many cases actually are? Where do you draw the line for punishing someone for doing something wrong in a sport where it's quite impossible to find an objective right? Also, isn't the 'corridor judging' already seen as a problem? What if judges, mainly trying not to be punished, would start to go even more by expectations instead of what they really see on the ice?

And couldn't those fines be abused too, if the sport was so corrupt? I think I'll just go with the point I don't like the idea of fining the judges. Paying them? Yes, but not just to be able to take it away if someone disagrees with you. If a judge is obviously corrupt and part of a scandal, ban them, but take their money away and let them continue to judge makes it even more likely they'll get bribed, IMO.

Yes, you're right of course. There's no way to stop corruption when it's so prevalent that it's not even seen as corruption by its members.

So, a skater who wants to win under that system without colluding with corruption has to fine-tune every single aspect of his/her skating and make it better than his/her rivals in every single which way so that judges can't possibly find a fault and take away points. Otherwise, you're at the judges' mercy, and you've either got to do some butt-licking or face the consequences of losing.

As a Mao fan, I have hated this about figure skating. But, as of now, Mao is so close to true perfection that even this system can't touch her, so I am ready to laugh at it now.

In the meanwhile, this system will self-destruct anyway, because it's nearly reached the upper limit of its inflation with two years and a half still to go...

E.T.A. I think I actually meant butt-kissing, not butt-licking, which is obsene, but maybe in my mind, I have the image that what skaters/federations have to do to secure victory is more like butt-licking than butt-kissing.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Scores must be comparable? Yes, I also want it very much.

Let us compare - Kostner at Worlds-2014 and Sotnikova few days ago.
Both deserve high PCS, both have great titles.
Both skated SP good, and in FS both had 4 triples. Base value in FS is about the same - 47.43 Caro, 48.44 Adelina.
Total score is very close - 203.83 Caro, 203.89 Adelina.
Similar level of skaters, similar skating and mistakes, the same score.

We see - Italian at Worlds in Japan and Russian in Russia have the same scores for the same skating.

I get that for you Sotnikova's one Olympic title is worth the same as Kostnre's long and very decorated career and known esteem,
(I can't blame you, An Olympic panel saw Sotnikova as superior even without any title)
To me it isn't, And i'd rather not go into it because everyone's tired of that, But here's a couple of points beside that

1) Kostner's PCS score in the FS at worlds wasn't necessarily a good thing either

2) Kostner didn't need a tech panel to forgive her for a wrong edge in the free, And at least one clear underrotation (The one in the SP)

3) A lot of people felt Kostner wuzrobbed at Olympics, So the panel at worlds was arguably overcompensating, Which is a wrong thing to do
But if we're comparing situations, With Sotnikova it wouldn't have needed to be the case.

 

[Snow63]

An article about "fake scores" in Saransk if anyone is interested:

http://www.championat.com/other/article-233050-turnir-po-figurnomu-kataniju-v-saranske.html

The most funny thing in this article is that the author clearly doesn't know what's the difference between Combination spin and Spin in ice dance. His 'photo proofs' are only proving that he is incompetent and should not be taken very seriously.

 

[AlexRus]

An Olympic panel saw Sotnikova as superior even without any title

Sotnikova at Olympics was JrWorlds Champion and two-times Euro silver medalist. It is not "without any title".

It was 2nd Senior season of Sotnikova and 12th Senior season of Kostner. So Sotnikova physically could not have so many titles as Kostner.

Very young Ladies won Olympics without many titles - Tara Lipinski for example, or Julia Lipnitskaia who won both SP and FS in Team Event.

And Sotnikova has significantly better spins than Kostner at Worlds-2014.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Sotnikova at Olympics was JrWorlds Champion and two-times Euro silver medalist. It is not "without any title".

It was 2nd Senior season of Sotnikova and 12th Senior season of Kostner. So Sotnikova physically could not have so many titles as Kostner.

Very young Ladies won Olympics without many titles - Tara Lipinski for example, or Julia Lipnitskaia who won both SP and FS in Team Event.

K, So she had a junior world title She was Russian national champion too you know, But you get what i mean


Tara Lipinski entered Olympics as World Champion mind you,
And Lipnitskaya in the months before Olympics won 2 GP events, Was on the podium at GPF and Claimed the European title, Which
i guess should've given her some sort of momentum for higher PCS at Olympics

 

[Tastetherainbow]

An article about "fake scores" in Saransk if anyone is interested:

http://www.championat.com/other/article-233050-turnir-po-figurnomu-kataniju-v-saranske.html

Obviously, from translating the comments in Google Translate, the Russians don't think highly of the author and the so-called "score inflation"......

 

[Snow63]

Obviously, from translating the comments in Google Translate, the Russians don't think highly of the author and the so-called "score inflation"...

Google Translate And now you know everything. Everyone there undarstand that the scores were inflated, trust me. The main thing people is angry about is that the author claims that Ilinykh/Zhiganshin's spin should be counted as CoSp2 or even CoSp1 (because judges chosed this option on the screen at first!!!! wow!)

 

[danceme]

Sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. This was an ISU sanctioned, international event. That it was scored as if it were some podunk local or internal competition is exactly the problem. As others have said, because it was a Challenger event, the skaters who received these very inflated scores will get an unfair boost on the SB list, likely passing skaters who earned their SB scores at more responsibly judged competitions.

I understand that figure skating is a sport judged by human beings, with a great deal of subjective evaluation involved. I don't get my panties in a wad every time a homey skater gets a little "thank you for hosting the competition" bonus. However, I believe the home cooking went too far at Mordovian Ornament. As a skating fan, I am very disillusioned that this sort of thing happens, that it is always swept under the rug, and that no one is ever held accountable. It makes me question why I even bother to follow the sport.

well put

 

[MaxSwagg]

Sotnikova at Olympics was JrWorlds Champion and two-times Euro silver medalist. It is not "without any title".

It was 2nd Senior season of Sotnikova and 12th Senior season of Kostner. So Sotnikova physically could not have so many titles as Kostner.

Very young Ladies won Olympics without many titles - Tara Lipinski for example, or Julia Lipnitskaia who won both SP and FS in Team Event.

And Sotnikova has significantly better spins than Kostner at Worlds-2014.

1) Sotnikova had no major titles
2) Tara won a world championship the year before
3) Sotnikova was up against some of the greatest ever in the sport
4) Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya experience a rate of component inflation the likes of which have never been seen, and he had received some of the highest scores ever

The result cannot be defended and the scores at this competition cannot be defended.

 

[Skater Boy]

Coming up : Sotnikova getting a new world record 155 with only 5 triples

Now come on Eladola be nice and not hyperbolic.

 

[Mista Ekko]

1) Sotnikova had no major titles
2) Tara won a world championship the year before
3) Sotnikova was up against some of the greatest ever in the sport
4) Sotnikova and Lipnitskaya experience a rate of component inflation the likes of which have never been seen, and he had received some of the highest scores ever

The result cannot be defended and the scores at this competition cannot be defended.

Thank you dear,
It's ok to admit Sotnikova's only reputation at Olympics was as the top Russian who stayed on her feet,
It doesn't mean she didn't compete very well, And digging up her Junior nationals is just trying too hard

Now come on Eladola be nice and not hyperbolic.

Come on, You know i was just being funny
It was following Pogorilaya's 141, And i think the last time we saw her
go clean in a FS internationally she received slighltly lower than 130.

 

[jenaj]

Were all of the judges at this event Russian?
I'm just wondering why they would conspire to give high scores to the Russian skaters at this minor event. Surely it wasn't to put them in the running for the top monetary prize of just over 5,000 USD.

 

[Mista Ekko]

Were all of the judges at this event Russian?
I'm just wondering why they would conspire to give high scores to the Russian skaters at this minor event. Surely it wasn't to put them in the running for the top monetary prize of just over 5,000 USD.

It's an ISU official event they can't all be Russian,
Judges and panelists were East european

 

[AlexRus]

Were all of the judges at this event Russian?

No.
Officials of Ladies FS http://fsrussia.ru/results/1516/CSRUS2015/SEG003OF.HTM
Judges - CRO KAZ POL BUL HUN AZE RUS

Other officals see in "Officials" items http://fsrussia.ru/results/1516/CSRUS2015/index.htm

It was typical for Internationals situation - all judges of different nations.