2015 Skate America Mens SP Oct 23

[Mathman]

Well, at least no one can accuse Skate America of home-cooked judging. Aaron is only the second American man in eleven years to win the event.

Here's NBCs take:

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2015/...son-brown-shoma-uno-denis-ten-figure-skating/

 

[ice coverage]

I think the scores were close, but not controversial.
If Shoma had won it would have been the same too.
Some would have agreed with the outcome and some would not.

Newbie, I have an honest question re Shoma.

The Japan Open did not include SPs. It was Shoma's FS that won, defeating Patrick's and Javi's.

At the Salt Lake City Classic, Shoma won the FS but placed 9th in the SP, and finished fifth overall.

So why would it be a foregone conclusion for some people (I don't mean you) that the only rightful outcome in Milwaukee would be for Shoma's SP and FS to win the gold at Skate America?? He didn't come close in SLC, against a weaker field than in Milwaukee.

---

Well, at least no one can accuse Skate America of home-cooked judging. Aaron is only the second American man in eleven years to win the event.

Here's NBCs take:

http://olympics.nbcsports.com/2015/...son-brown-shoma-uno-denis-ten-figure-skating/

You meant to say that Max is the second U.S. man in six years to win Skate America. Max's idol Lysacek won in 2009.

ETA: Sorry, never mind, MM. I also got it wrong. Thx to sabinfire for pointing out my own error.​

 

[Interspectator]

Newbie, I have an honest question re Shoma.

The Japan Open did not include SPs. It was Shoma's FS that won, defeating Patrick's and Javi's.

At the Salt Lake City Classic, Shoma won the FS but placed 9th in the SP, and finished fifth overall.

So why would it be a foregone conclusion for some people (I don't mean you) that the only rightful outcome in Milwaukee would be for Shoma's SP and FS to win the gold at Skate America?? He didn't come close in SLC, against a weaker field than in Milwaukee.

---

You meant to say that Max is the second U.S. man in six years to win Skate America. Max's idol Lysacek won in 2009.

I think, with a very talented 'prodigy' type skater, I project into the future. Even one season ahead, I could see these same programs delivering a close, but different outcome. (Shoma being one point ahead of Max instead of one point behind)

That would also create discontent by those who believe that Max's TES should make up for the PCS deficit.
I think the debate is inevitable either way, but that the judges scored fairly even if a different panel may have come up with a different result.

Does that make sense?

 

[sabinfire]

Well, at least no one can accuse Skate America of home-cooked judging. Aaron is only the second American man in eleven years to win the event.

You meant to say that Max is the second U.S. man in six years to win Skate America. Max's idol Lysacek won in 2009.

I think Mathman meant to say Max is only the second U.S. man in twelve years to win Skate America. Lysacek in 2009, and Max Aaron in 2015. You have to go back to 2003 when Michael Weiss won Skate America.

 

[ice coverage]

I think, with a very talented 'prodigy' type skater, I project into the future. Even one season ahead, I could see these same programs delivering a close, but different outcome. (Shoma being one point ahead of Max instead of one point behind)

That would also create discontent by those who believe that Max's TES should make up for the PCS deficit.
I think the debate is inevitable either way, but that the judges scored fairly even if a different panel may have come up with a different result.

Does that make sense?

Thx, it does make some sense ... although one just as easily could speculate that on different days with a different panel, Max could have been the one to receive a couple of additional points, making his margin of victory a little larger.

My previous post was more about people who seem to think that Shoma should have been handed the gold based on what he theoretically was capable of. I don't understand the outrage from that point of view, because one of the plausible outcomes that he was theoretically capable of is having a weak SP -- as he already did in SLC.

(I will stop there, b/c I don't want to sound as if I am bashing Shoma.)

---

I think Mathman meant to say Max is only the second U.S. man in twelve years to win Skate America. Lysacek in 2009, and Max Aaron in 2015. You have to go back to 2003 when Michael Weiss won Skate America.

Thx for the correction, sabinfire .
I knew something wasn't quite right with what MM said, but then my peabrain :hopelessness: garbled the "N-th person in X years" construction in my own stupid way.
My apologies to MM.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Newbie, I have an honest question re Shoma.

The Japan Open did not include SPs. It was Shoma's FS that won, defeating Patrick's and Javi's.

At the Salt Lake City Classic, Shoma won the FS but placed 9th in the SP, and finished fifth overall.

So why would it be a foregone conclusion for some people (I don't mean you) that the only rightful outcome in Milwaukee would be for Shoma's SP and FS to win the gold at Skate America?? He didn't come close in SLC, against a weaker field than in Milwaukee.

---

You meant to say that Max is the second U.S. man in six years to win Skate America. Max's idol Lysacek won in 2009.

ETA: Sorry, never mind, MM. I also got it wrong. Thx to sabinfire for pointing out my own error.​

The "issue" was that people have a hierarchy of skaters in their minds when it comes to where skaters should end up.

At Skate America, the artistry hierarchy went 1) Ten, 2) Brown 3) Uno/Yan, and then you get into the "second-tier" of artistry with Menshov/Aaron.

Ten bombed his SP/FS, the next skater who "should have" won (in the naysayers' minds) would be Brown -- but he had an SP error and a dicey FS with underrotations/downgrade. So then Yan could have won (especially after being the only "artistic" guy to have a strong SP), but then had a poor FS, which took him out of gold contention.

o then it was up to Uno to "save" the competition from being won by a so-called technical skater like Menshov or Aaron. But he fell in the SP and made too many FS errors to clinch the victory.

Menshov needed to go clean and smash his PB by 20 points, but the error on the 3A in the SP and losing about 15 potential points on his 4S & 2nd 4T-turned-triple, and minor errors on his lutz and final spin prevented him from getting the necessary score to win. I would wager he's the skater with the greatest discrepancy between his personal best total score (237.24), and his best SP + best LP (252.59).

So, this left the door open for Aaron -- who had a perfect SP and whose FS had only one visible error, a 2A stepout, which though at the end was minor given that he landed 2 quads and 2 axels. His technical score that he racked up, along with his nearest competitors' errors over the SP+LP, allowed him to squeak out the victory. It was hardly unexpected or controversial.

Haters are just mad that none of the 4 putative "artistic" skaters (Ten/Brown/Yan/Uno) skated cleanly enough to prevent a technical skater (who, unlike them, delivered in both programs) from winning.

 

[ice coverage]

The "issue" was that people have a hierarchy of skaters in their minds when it comes to where skaters should end up. ....

And I think you and I both do not agree with those who cling to such a hierarchy as a justification for who should have won in Milwaukee.

(I say that based on your comments in the FS thread, CSG.)

I understand that Shoma has huge potential for greatness as a senior. And I would be happy to see an exciting rivalry btwn Shoma and Yuzuru.

But given Shoma's lapse in SLC, I don't understand the assumption that it was a fluke that his SP in Milwaukee was not perfection.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Shoma is great but I wouldn't call him a prodigy. Yuzuru Hanyu is a prodigy but Shoma? He's not "prodigal" in relation to his ability for his age. Though I laugh at the ranking. Shoma is above Han Yan and his awkward snoozer programs at this point.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The "issue" was that people have a hierarchy of skaters in their minds when it comes to where skaters should end up.

Yes, those people being the judges. As it has always been. Max has been around longer than Shoma, this is Skate America, and he skated clean while Shoma did not. Thus, the judges somehow award those two competitors equal scores in skating skills in the SP, even though that is not what is actually happened in reality out there.

So, this left the door open for Aaron -- who had a perfect SP

LOL a "perfect" SP. There's way more to perfection than not visibility messing up a technical element. He wasn't the only guy to simply do a "clean" SP with a Quad to begin with. Pitkeev did that as well, while displaying superior skating ability (but he is of course newer on the scene, so the judges didn't take him seriously). Menshov with 2 Quads in the SP beat everyone on technical merit, even with the touchdown on the 3Axel. Han Yan had the best skating skills but a bad landing on his jump combo and not a very good program overall. Ross Miner had the best overall performance but was ignored for not being a big name and not having a quad.

 

[karne]

LOL a "perfect" SP. There's way more to perfection than not visibility messing up a technical element. He wasn't the only guy to simply do a "clean" SP with a Quad to begin with. Pitkeev did that as well, while displaying superior skating ability (but he is of course newer on the scene, so the judges didn't take him seriously). Menshov with 2 Quads in the SP beat everyone on technical merit, even with the touchdown on the 3Axel. Han Yan had the best skating skills but a bad landing on his jump combo and not a very good program overall. Ross Miner had the best overall performance but was ignored for not being a big name and not having a quad.

Pitkeev did not do his solo quad toe out of steps as he is required to do, which since you seem to be going crazy over "mistakes" I would have thought you would have realised. Pitkeev was also not the only other skater to do a clean quad, as Brendan Kerry also landed an absolutely perfect one and also got -GOE from the judges for the same reason. You could equally argue that the judges did not take Kerry seriously because he is from a smaller skating country that few care about, unlike Pitkeev who has the force of the Russian fed behind him. Menshov was flawed technically (triple Axel problems) and PCS-wise the judges got that one about right. Han Yan made technical errors and I actually thought his score was too high for what he did. He looked almost embarrassed to be skating that program. Ross, much as it pains me to say it because I do have a soft spot for him, was boring as heck as well as sub-par technically.

You can whinge and cry all you like but the judges got this one right. Max is Skate America Champion.

You want to see criminal scoring? You only have until this weekend to wait.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Pitkeev did not do his solo quad toe out of steps as he is required to do

Yes he did. There was a break between, but not a huge one. The quad itself was +1 GOE worthy, give -1 GOE for not good enough of a transition, and that puts you at 0 GOE. It was a sufficiently completed element. If GOE could be further specified I'd want to call it "-.5" to most fairly describe it, but still that's not a huge flaw.

Ross, much as it pains me to say it because I do have a soft spot for him, was boring as heck as well as sub-par technically.

"Sub-par" technically doesn't describe what his PCS should be. He was not boring either. Of all the programs here, to me his paid the most attention to detail. Perhaps some happy commentary might help - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEfuOnjwcsk

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, those people being the judges. As it has always been. Max has been around longer than Shoma, this is Skate America, and he skated clean while Shoma did not. Thus, the judges somehow award those two competitors equal scores in skating skills in the SP, even though that is not what is actually happened in reality out there.

LOL a "perfect" SP. There's way more to perfection than not visibility messing up a technical element. He wasn't the only guy to simply do a "clean" SP with a Quad to begin with. Pitkeev did that as well, while displaying superior skating ability (but he is of course newer on the scene, so the judges didn't take him seriously). Menshov with 2 Quads in the SP beat everyone on technical merit, even with the touchdown on the 3Axel. Han Yan had the best skating skills but a bad landing on his jump combo and not a very good program overall. Ross Miner had the best overall performance but was ignored for not being a big name and not having a quad.

Please. Shoma was also new to the scene (moreso than Pitkeev - who already has one senior GP season under his belt) and the judges took him very seriously and gave him the highest PCS scores ever doled out to a newcomers in their senior GP debut.

But I forgot, Pitkeev "won" that SP in your mind. The general opinion on the forum is that the program wasn't that great (nobody other than you thinks he should have won the SP), and the judges certainly didn't respond kindly to it, giving it the 10th best PCS in spite of a clean program (with minor errors like a forward-leaning toe-picky landing on the quad toe, and a wonky entry/imperfect changeover in his combo spin, dropping it to a level 2 - and you talk about Max not having a "perfect" program).

As for Ross not being a big name, he's a Four Continents bronze medalist, a two-time NHK bronze medalist, and US silver medalist, and he's performing on home ice, so he's not exactly an unknown to the judges.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes he did. There was a break between, but not a huge one. The quad itself was +1 GOE worthy, give -1 GOE for not good enough of a transition, and that puts you at 0 GOE. It was a sufficiently completed element. If GOE could be further specified I'd want to call it "-.5" to most fairly describe it, but still that's not a huge flaw.

Wow, that's mighty generous of you. His "preceding steps" were a simple Mohawk, a RBI-LFO Choctaw (not considered a legit difficult step), and a couple of 3-turns - there were zero difficult turns or steps incorporated (looks like Plushenko's quad setup); a Canskater could execute those steps. You know as well as I know that those aren't "preceding steps", in terms of what preceding steps should be.

Also, his takeoff was prerotated. And he landed forward on his toe pick on the landing, with a lean at that (almost touched the ice with his hand).

So really, the judges were being generous for giving him 0's, and overly generous (as you would be) to give a +1, on that element. I'd have given that a -2 (-1 if I were being generous, -3 if I were being critical). In the FS though I would have given that quad a 0.

 

[sabinfire]

You want to see criminal scoring? You only have until this weekend to wait.

And people are thinking the men's event at SkAm was a mess...

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

You want to see criminal scoring? You only have until this weekend to wait.

So true. I wouldn't be surprised if Chanyu bombs and still go 1-2, with Nam/Murakami skating cleanly.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Wow, that's mighty generous of you. His "preceding steps" were a simple Mohawk, a RBI-LFO Choctaw (not considered a legit difficult step), and a couple of 3-turns - there were zero difficult turns or steps incorporated

It isn't required to do "difficult" turns or steps. You just have to keep a series of turns/steps going into the jump, unless you're doing a single difficult movement right into a jump, like a spiral or spread eagle. He did mohawks, threes, a back foot cross, and a choctaw a good distance across the ice going into the quad. The only issue is that he paused for a split second before going into the final three-turn into the jump.

 

[karne]

And people are thinking the men's event at SkAm was a mess...

Clearly - CLEARLY - even the ludicrous Hanyuflation and inflation cannot hold a candle to this scandal of scandals, this injustice of injustices, this horrifying result that an almost perfectly-clean skater beat one who fell!

 

[el henry]

Clearly - CLEARLY - even the ludicrous Hanyuflation and inflation cannot hold a candle to this scandal of scandals, this injustice of injustices, this horrifying result that an almost perfectly-clean skater beat one who fell!

:thumbsup:

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It isn't required to do "difficult" turns or steps. You just have to keep a series of turns/steps going into the jump, unless you're doing a single difficult movement right into a jump, like a spiral or spread eagle. He did mohawks, threes, a back foot cross, and a choctaw a good distance across the ice going into the quad. The only issue is that he paused for a split second before going into the final three-turn into the jump.

Well maybe the judges felt that the steps were far too simple (which, of course, they were) to be considered legitimate preceding steps. But as mentioned, there were other issues, notably the scratchy landing on the toe pick with a lean forward/near touchdown. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni4Bmxl_pek (0:53 & 4:19)

Also, to get +1 GOE, you need to achieve 2 bullets of the following:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry (definitely not)
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element (you said yourself, the steps weren't immediately preceding due to a split second pause)
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation (nope)
4) good height and distance (both were average by comparison, but sure let's give him that, if we're being generous)
5) good extension on landing / creative exit (leaned forward - almost touching the ice - on the landing, no creative exit)
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences (scratchy landing onto his pick which led to, at best, average flow on the exit)
7) effortless throughout (almost touched down and a scratchy landing = not effortless)
8) element matched to the musical structure (had he landed it a second later, maybe... but the takeoff/landing didn't correspond with any accented note or highlight in the music)


So... which two did Pitkeev achieve to earn your so-called +1?

Couple the lack of meeting even 2 GOE criteria, along with the toe-picky landing, as well as the pause before the quad, after extremely basic "preceding steps", and not landing it on a clean outside edge (which is quite apparent if you see it in slow motion around 4:20), with a lean/near touchdown.... it's pretty obvious as to why he got negative GOE for that element. He should consider himself lucky that the majority of judges gave him as high as 0/+1's. That should have been -1's/-2's across the board, with a 0 thrown in from an overly lenient judge.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Thanks for listing the current CoP GUIDELINES for how to score jumps. Those bullets are not how jumps should actually be scored most accurately and thankfully they are indeed just guidelines.

And yes he did have it matched to the musical structure. The jump comes right in the absence of the higher piano notes in the melody, while there are descending alternating beats inbetween when the jump is happening. The entrance, takeoff, and exit of the jump define those piano notes while the space inbetween is exactly where the jump happens. It can also be argued that the jump was effortless throughout. He is a bit forward with the upper body and a bit up on the toepick at the start of the landing, but he pulls into a good flowing exit position with no actual effort. The movement is fluid and looks normal, as if it was intended, not like a fight.