2015 Skate Canada Mens Free Skate

[Interspectator]

To me, it's always about the skating, so I watch for all the qualities pertaining to good skating, which actually include all of those criteria you listed. Jason is another skater who is weaker in jumps and TES and he gets really high PCS, but he embodies much more in his skating than his cute and adorable persona. I don't agree with his super high PCS but his skating skills are good, he has great spins, musicality, etc. and I am ok with the superhigh PCS.

I'm really bothered if costumes, facial and arm expressions are getting higher PCS because of their "show" quality and popularity with audiences.

But no skater will have all of them, and if they are missing something or are weak in that area and it's important to you, it will become annoying. Especially if they beat a skater that does have the qualities you value most.

Popularity with the audience means that to the audience that skater is embodying what they like to see in a program. They have been moved. The judges are right to take that into consideration while scoring to a certain extent.

 

[qwertyskates]

But no skater will have all of them, and if they are missing something or are weak in that area and it's important to you, it will become annoying. Especially if they beat a skater that does have the qualities you value most.

Exactly, I don't expect to see all of them in one package, but definitely "facial expression" and "soft, natural arms" are not important to me. They shouldn't be that important to judges, I hope.

This is why I'm annoyed that Patrick's getting criticized for his boring costumes, his eyes, his "robot" arms, etc., while his skating is just amazing, and his arms were expressing the nuances in the music, just not the way Ashley dramatically gestured with hers.

 

[Interspectator]

Exactly, I don't expect to see all of them in one package, but definitely "facial expression" and "soft, natural arms" are not important to me. They shouldn't be that important to judges, I hope.

Musicality is shown a great deal in the movement of the core muscles, going into the back and out to the arms and head. It is important to me that there is good upper-body movement. Facial expression is the cherry on the cake, the final topping to the performance...it is also important to me that this is present.
otherwise it would be an exercise in figures.

This is why I'm annoyed that Patrick's getting criticized for his boring costumes, his eyes, his "robot" arms, etc., while his skating is just amazing, and his arms were expressing the nuances in the music, just not the way Ashley dramatically gestured with hers.

So his style is not what they like. And to be honest, not my favorite either. When I hear the music, my ideal interpretation of that music is not what I see from Patrick.
But I hear the same things about my absolute favorite, Yuzu, his posture is horrible, arms are noodle-y etc. And yet his interpretation of his music is closer to my ideal.

But both are deserving of high marks in PCS because though it may or may not be my favorite style they are both showing great skill in the areas that PCS points are supposed to be awarded for. In varying degrees.

I am always annoyed that PCS is a wonderful system of scoring but is not used as it should be. Points are basically across the board. When even with high-level skaters like Patrick and Yuzu there are variations in their skill levels in each point.

 

[qwertyskates]

Musicality is shown a great deal in the movement of the core muscles, going into the back and out to the arms and head. It is important to me that there is good upper-body movement. Facial expression is the cherry on the cake, the final topping to the performance...it is also important to me that this is present.
otherwise it would be an exercise in figures.

Hanyu is also a poker face skater, i.e. not facially expressive, but his whole body expressed the music and program's narrative, so to me, it's enough that both of them are compelling enough to watch without the " facial expressions". I also didn't mind Gracie's "windmill arms", if it naturally helps her skating I don't see why not.

If a good skater has good facial and arm expressions, that's great. If a good skater does not have good facial and arm expressions like Ashley's, that's great too.

I better qualify that these arm expressions refer to "acting" expressions, caressing the cheeks, clutching the chest, clutching the head in "angst", flinging them at the sides, etc., and not when they are part of upper body movements, spins, transitions, step sequences, jumps like tanos, etc.

In the end, I want skaters to focus on delivering great skates, I wouldn't want them to start developing greater showmanship at the expense of great skating and win over fellow great skaters. I'd hate it if it becomes a trend.

 

[Interspectator]

Hanyu is also a poker face skater, i.e. not facially expressive, but his whole body expressed the music and program's narrative, so to me, it's enough that both of them are compelling enough to watch without the " facial expressions". I also didn't mind Gracie's "windmill arms", if it naturally helps her skating I don't see why not.

If a good skater has good facial and arm expressions, that's great. If a good skater does not have good facial and arm expressions like Ashley's, that's great too.

I better qualify that these arm expressions refer to "acting" expressions, caressing the cheeks, clutching the chest, clutching the head in "angst", flinging them at the sides, etc., and not when they are part of spins, transitions, step sequences, jumps like tanos, etc.

In the end, I want skaters to focus on delivering great skates, I wouldn't want them to start developing greater showmanship at the expense of great skating and win over fellow great skaters. I'd hate it if it becomes a trend.

It hasn't though...the guys at the top deserve to be there. This is not the great Showmanship Apocalypse of figure skating.
What is over dramatic and unnecessary to me may be someone else' favorite part of the whole program. It might be that way for a judge who is watching.
I don't mind. Showmanship very is important for the sport. Daisuke Takahashi spent many, many hours polishing his showmanship and got awarded points for it when it was coupled with his great skating skills. If it was just his skating skills would it have been as impressive to the judges? Probably not.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Facial expressions matter only to those who watch via official camera. Live viewers close to the rink, such as judges, may see them only when the skaters are right in front facing them.

A skating performance is more like stage performance for the judges and other live viewers. Whole body movements portray the emotions and actions. Video viewers think it's like a movie because of close up camera work emphasizing every little nuance in facial expressions that even fancams can't capture.

Facial expression may add to the pleasure of those watching at home but are insignificant in the judging. Of course, fans can love a skater for their facial expressions, but the expressions are not a judging criteria and are not valid justification in debates about the merits of the abilities and the placements of the skaters.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Additionally to what SkateFiguring just said, I'm just surprised either one of Yuzuru or Patrick is getting the 'not enough facial expressions' thingy. I always thought they were both doing fine in that regard :roll9:

And I really love all this new emoticons, but it still takes me foooooreeeeeveeeer to go decide which new one to take in a post...

 

[qwertyskates]

It's due to Patrick getting flak for his "paste-on" arm expressions and cross-eyes....:whack:

Otoh I'm perplexed as to all the praise for Ashley's golden FS for what looks to me to be an empty program, except for her facial and arm expressions ..I must be a hater for missing those split falling leaves, spread eagles and ina bauers

 

[Violet Bliss]

It's due to Patrick getting flak for his "paste-on" arm expressions and cross-eyes....:whack:

I had to like you just for finding and showing me that emoticon!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Facial expressions matter only to those who watch via official camera. Live viewers close to the rink, such as judges, may see them only when the skaters are right in front facing them.

A skating performance is more like stage performance for the judges and other live viewers. Whole body movements portray the emotions and actions. Video viewers think it's like a movie because of close up camera work emphasizing every little nuance in facial expressions that even fancams can't capture.

Facial expression may add to the pleasure of those watching at home but are insignificant in the judging. Of course, fans can love a skater for their facial expressions, but the expressions are not a judging criteria and are not valid justification in debates about the merits of the abilities and the placements of the skaters.

This. SO much. In something like ice dance, I think facial expressions are more important for establishing connection, but they are not as significant in singles skating. A more animated face can make for better interpretation (see: Leonova), but it shouldn't be a major determinant in interpretation scores, compared to how the skater uses their BODY to convey a theme/show musicality.

 

[Jaana]

Well, I just got to see the men's final flight on big screen TV. No offense to Hanyu, Murakami, Nguyen, Rippon, etc., but Patrick was a man among boys. He was in total command of his performance. Someone may outpoint him, but no one can outskate him if he skates like that.

Yes, that was excellent! I wonder though if he is able to keep all this until the end of the season = Worlds competition??? Of course he now in his first competition needed to show what he is made of, LOL, but the season is long....

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, that was excellent! I wonder though if he is able to keep all this until the end of the season = Worlds competition??? Of course he now in his first competition needed to show what he is made of, LOL, but the season is long....

The season is long. But you could say the same thing about Mao, or Max, or anyone who's won an early competition. Had Patrick had a FS as bad as his SP, I'm sure the narrative would be, will he be able to get it together by the end of the season?

Regardless, 190 with only 1 quad and 1 axel and no 3Z+3S series (his 3rd best score ever) is very impressive and a huge relief to him after his SP. I was surprised he still included both lutzes given the trouble it gave him in the SP and practices, but they were fine in the FS. This is a HUGE confidence boost to him and a crushing blow to his haters.

 

[Mathman]

At the end of the day, there will be no agreement here. For some people FS is all about the technical aspects and for others it´s also about artistry and how you perform. You will never come together guys...

Poor figure skating. Sportsmen deny that it is a sport. (Fishing is a sport.) Artists deny that it is performance art. (Mime is performance art.)

Yes, that was excellent! I wonder though if he is able to keep all this until the end of the season = Worlds competition??? Of course he now in his first competition needed to show what he is made of, LOL, but the season is long....

I think he accomplished his goal, to show that he was back in top form after a year's layoff. (Same with Mao.) Now he won't have to start in the middle of the pack and work his way back into the judges' esteem.

to be artistic and to be an artist are two different things…

It is? Artist = someone who creates art. Artistic = pertaining to art. Art = what artists do.

Of course, there is also ART -- meaning something that is so profound, so sublime, that we can use the word only if Mickelangelo is in the same sentence. :yes:

As for the French, again, it's the adjective... and it is the same with gymnastics right? artistic gymnastics... sorry but i don't think holding on to a pommel horse has anything to do with arts...

A celebration of the human form ::

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/19N6uruAyos/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/...s+Day+10+Gymnastics+Artistic+X3_Jjpg0XDXl.jpg

 

[Alex D]

sounds like very interesting and productive discussion

:laugh15:

Poor figure skating. Sportsmen deny that it is a sport. (Fishing is a sport.) Artists deny that it is performance art. (Mime is performance art.)

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The way I fish, is art! :eekn: Do you know how elegant I throw the float, that is a 10 and a full choreography that took me 4 months to learn.

 

[4everchan]

you quoted me without understanding the context.. the performing art part of FIGURE SKATING is entertainment… it is performance but not art. i have no issue calling your favourite actresses and singers artists… acting/music are considered arts… figure skating is a sport… yes… one can be entertained by performing arts… i think you are simply playing dumb on my post you are smarter than that

You don't consider the performing arts to be art? Don't you think that Meryl Streep is an artist? Misty Copeland? Barbra Streisand?

Conversely, when you go to the symphony, aren't you entertained? (If not, why go?)

Of course figure skating falls into the category of "Entertainment and Recreation." What else would it be, Mining and Manufacturing? Banking and Financial Services?

 

[MIM]

I don't get the criticisms of Chan's artistry, for the entire FP I didn't see a moment of lapse, even while he was doing amazing things with his feet, his movements and motions were perfectly performed to every nuance in the music, it's not "paste-on", whatever that may mean.

Chan's arms may not be enough for the Bolshoi but he's being judged for his skating, not those other "bonus" traits.

That was my first impression. He was wonderful! virtuoso! Then, I got to see those skatings by the legends, who pursued artistry in figure skating in courtesy of BoP. There was undeniable gap between the legends and the current top skaters(including Chan and Yuzu) That leads me to believe how deep and further figure skating can go, which is as worthy as going for 4As, 4Lzs, 4Fs, 4Ss, 4Ts, and 4Rs. I understand and respect Patrick's decision on training with the current coach to pursue his artistic vision while keeping the technical prowess.

Then, I re-watched Patrick, Yuzu, and (Denis)' performances over and over. I saw how naturally talented Yuzu is, but not using it sometimes (hence noodle-y) and where Patrick is. Patrick's body type (I hate to use this word) is not kind to show his line elongated. If he just moved naturally, free-style, whatever he wanted, his line would not as nice as what he has now. He needed extra care and training to make it smooth and elongated, conversely resulting in criticisms like looking statuesque, not-natural, robotic, or "paste-on". I get it and I don't think it is that negative, meaning it is a sign of progress, and it is worth it.

His LP has full of valuable attempts and a glimpse of the actual fruit. I figured that is why I felt his LP was special and virtuoso in the first place. He was so determined and commanding, controlling feet, arms, neck, chest, back while executing everything top of his game during the entire time of the program to breathe with music. He did not let any un-wanted movements get in his way. And, his focus on the entire body accentuates his skating and interpretation and brings it to the next level.

If you think that the port-de-bras or artistic pursuit and what not is out of his reach, then I think you are underestimating him. And, there is nothing wrong with aiming high. If you think he doesn't need it, well, I respect that, too. I honestly think he still has one of the greatest body movements in this current field. I wanted to bring up the classic/old/artistry because it is another way to look at figure skating and it is very relevant.


@ Interspectator, I agree with most of posts you wrote. There were a few comments that I presume you included me in "they." I just want to clarify things otherwise, misleading.

So his style is not what they like. And to be honest, not my favorite either. When I hear the music, my ideal interpretation of that music is not what I see from Patrick.

No, I like Patrick's style as is now. Do I think he could be better? YES!

Showmanship very is important for the sport. Daisuke Takahashi spent many, many hours polishing his showmanship and got awarded points for it when it was coupled with his great skating skills. If it was just his skating skills would it have been as impressive to the judges? Probably not.

I think it is very noble of Takahashi that knowing he got top PCS in current system, he kept on pouring energy for something that was not written in the score sheet specifically(i.e. BV), thus did not promise how much point he would get awarded.

What is over dramatic and unnecessary to me may be someone else' favorite part of the whole program. It might be that way for a judge who is watching.

The moments I mentioned in my OP were IMO where his mechanical training finally paid off and being effortless, unison to music, body, vision, everything. I was ecstatic to see moments like that and hope he conquers the whole program with full of those moments.

 

[MaxSwagg]

to be artistic and to be an artist are two different things...

as for the french, again, it's the adjective... and it is the same with gymnastics right? artistic gymnastics... sorry but i don't think holding on to a pommel horse has anything to do with arts... or running as fast as you can to propel yourself off the vault....

Noooooo. Pommel horse is one of the most artistic of the apparatuses! Even with skewed hands (a major deduction, -0.3 tenth every time), a highly executed routine with flow and style (i.e. Takehiro Kashima...now that's great style) to me is just :luv17:

 

[MIM]

Poor figure skating. Sportsmen deny that it is a sport. (Fishing is a sport.) Artists deny that it is performance art. (Mime is performance art.)


It is? Artist = someone who creates art. Artistic = pertaining to art. Art = what artists do.

Of course, there is also ART -- meaning something that is so profound, so sublime, that we can use the word only if Mickelangelo is in the same sentence. :yes:



A celebration of the human form ::

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/19N6uruAyos/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/...s+Day+10+Gymnastics+Artistic+X3_Jjpg0XDXl.jpg

I am one of those people who believe everything can be art. Some people wants to separate Fine Art from the rest. I think that effort is also valuable to keep the classic alive the way it has been intended/created originally. Nowadays, the boundary is blurred and defining/interpreting art and not-art becomes an art, too Love it! I love the photos you attached. You just gave me INSPIRATION! and Capturing the inspiration! To me, the photos you posted are art!

 

[4everchan]

Noooooo. Pommel horse is one of the most artistic of the apparatuses! Even with skewed hands (a major deduction, -0.3 tenth every time), a highly executed routine with flow and style (i.e. Takehiro Kashima...now that's great style) to me is just :luv17:

you just prove my point: artistic is not art…

roger federer's backhand? artistic? maybe…. tennis: an art? no… a sport…

great style is still not art.

i think that i will stop there… if one doesn't understand the difference, i don't think I will help them get it… however, the point of my posts here is that many people in this forum are confused when it comes to PCS and refer to it as art…or saying so and so is so much more of an artist than another…. when it is actually SKILLS…. skating skills like speed…. for instance… and when considering performance and execution, in the world of performing arts (and i mean fine arts) if one were to crash and burn a few times in 4 minutes, it would be the end of their career….

 

[MaxSwagg]

you just prove my point: artistic is not art…

roger federer's backhand? artistic? maybe…. tennis: and art? no… a sport…

great style is still not art.

i think that i will stop there… if one doesn't understand the difference, i don't think I will help them get it… however, the point of my posts here is that many people in this forum are confused when it comes to PCS and refer to it as art…or saying so and so is so much more of an artist than another…. when it is actually SKILLS…. skating skills like speed…. for instance… and when considering performance and execution, in the world of performing arts (and i mean fine arts) if one were to crash and burn a few times in 4 minutes, it would be the end of their career….

I prefer Rafa anyway. :2thumbs: