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rafa is my fave
2015 Skate Canada Mens Free Skate
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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- Feb 13, 2014
Agree, I think both of their faces during skate are very EXPRESSIVE :roll9::sad46::scard8: <--- something like that :laugh15:Additionally to what SkateFiguring just said, I'm just surprised either one of Yuzuru or Patrick is getting the 'not enough facial expressions' thingy. I always thought they were both doing fine in that regard
And I really love all this new emoticons, but it still takes me foooooreeeeeveeeer to go decide which new one to take in a post...
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- Nov 12, 2013
I consider both Patrick and Yuzuru to be great figure skaters because they brought the sport to a form of art, by fusing technique with sublime delivery, each after his own fashion, as both have different physique and strengths.
Yuzuru is more flexible and a fantastic jumper who leaps into the air as if he has wings, it's out of this world.
Patrick has mastered the ice to the point where his skating skills are an amazing thing to behold which enables him to perform beautifully executed steps and jumps, and he has gone deeper into the music and developed an emotional connection such that he transcends his self-consciousness and reaches a seamless fusion when he is "in the zone".
You don't need to watch their faces to embark on their program's journey with them, they have transported the audience to another place with their skating.
This sets them apart from Ashley, whom I think isn't so much a figure skating artist because of her unimpressive technical skills, but more of a performance artist. Even then, her performance is too literal for me, lacking nuances and subtleties, but perhaps enjoyable for many.
Meryl Streep is a great performance artist, she makes you forget that she's "acting" because she has mastered acting to the point of art. Ashley's "acting" on the ice is more overt.
I won't hold it against her or any other skater, but then I'm watching figure skating, not acting. Kanako, Daleman, and many others skated better, though flawed, programs. Ashley, looking gorgeous, hardly left the ice even when she jumped. I'm disappointed that she delivered a very mediocre, empty program in terms of figure skating elements and got awarded huge PCS plus the gold medal for it.:dumb:
Yuzuru is more flexible and a fantastic jumper who leaps into the air as if he has wings, it's out of this world.
Patrick has mastered the ice to the point where his skating skills are an amazing thing to behold which enables him to perform beautifully executed steps and jumps, and he has gone deeper into the music and developed an emotional connection such that he transcends his self-consciousness and reaches a seamless fusion when he is "in the zone".
You don't need to watch their faces to embark on their program's journey with them, they have transported the audience to another place with their skating.
This sets them apart from Ashley, whom I think isn't so much a figure skating artist because of her unimpressive technical skills, but more of a performance artist. Even then, her performance is too literal for me, lacking nuances and subtleties, but perhaps enjoyable for many.
Meryl Streep is a great performance artist, she makes you forget that she's "acting" because she has mastered acting to the point of art. Ashley's "acting" on the ice is more overt.
I won't hold it against her or any other skater, but then I'm watching figure skating, not acting. Kanako, Daleman, and many others skated better, though flawed, programs. Ashley, looking gorgeous, hardly left the ice even when she jumped. I'm disappointed that she delivered a very mediocre, empty program in terms of figure skating elements and got awarded huge PCS plus the gold medal for it.:dumb:
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- Jan 25, 2013
I actually quite like Ashley's acting... Most other skaters would skate to the music but she's actually embodying a character. Yes it's detracting from her feet but while that should reduce her SS and TR she sacrifices those for higher PE and IN marks. Some skaters pack in transitions and footwork and as such they sacrifice their PE and IN marks.
And really, if we held it against skaters for "acting" nobody would ever watch ice dance.
And really, if we held it against skaters for "acting" nobody would ever watch ice dance.
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And your point is? would you say that chan quality IN THESE EVENT was equal to yuzuru or daisuke? Or that Yuzu skated with the same quality an attack that he showed here at last year gpf?
if you loo at the protocols you can see that he had landend his 3 lutz decently he would have got more or less the same goe than Patrick: was it home infaltion even there at Barcelona? and yet he clearly got much more goe then all the others skaters...
Moving on I honestly find that Patrick was both overscored and underscored in his pcs, because while I feel his pcs were right, there is no way for me that he (or any skater for that matter) should get one or more 10s... that should be given only to perfection and we being human cannot perfect
, but at the same time other judges were a bit stingy (yeah I honestly feel a 9.00 for that performance is a bit stingy)... On the other hand Yuzu should have at least got 90+ in his components... it wasn't perfect, it wasn't constant, on that night it wasn't on par with chan, but there were moment of brilliance that surpassed evrything anyone has skated during this competit
Yes, it's unusual to get +2's across the board.
But that's exactly what happens when someone skates unusually well.
Which is what Chan did that night.
Your "observation" is wonky.
Chan's performance was better than the other skaters that night.
So he got more +2's than others. It's that simple. No "generosity" involved.
The GoE bullet points for jumps are:
1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure
The recommendation is four bullet points ticked, to justify +2 GoE.
Chan's jumps satisfied bullet points 4, 5, 6 and 7 every time.
And you could argue for more bullet points, for some of them
The +2's are justified.
Seriously, you have to be biased beyond reason not to see this.
I suggest you listen to the British Eurosport commentary of Chan's skate. It's very telling, even though they are historically big gushing fans of Yuzuru, more so than Chan.
The GoE judging was about as fair as it gets in figure skating. And when Yuzuru gives his best skate, this is exactly the kind of judging I want to see! Then there will be new world records...
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Yeah, when I watched Patrick's performance, I couldn't deny that all jumps were executed great. Even his 3A looked great. Perhaps there was a bit of home inflation but not much, most of those GOEs were deserved, and I can admit it even though I'm not much of a Patrick fan.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Actually the issue is that some skaters' jumps tick all those bullets but they don't get that much GOE. :dance2: And I am not talking about Yuzuru.
There is this very knowledgeable winter sport journalist, Massimiliano Ambesi, he is also working at Eurosport, but for Italian, he and other ex coaches gave a talk about Skate Canada, I hope there will be some translation sooner or latter. By the end of this talk, there was a sentence like this: "So this time it went like this. But in other competitions the scoring might be completely different."
And don't forget the GOE for spins, :dance2: I mean... look at Patrick's spin in video and the GOE... Oh well...
I am ok with the placement, just the score gap in the LP I don't agree with. You know almost 20 GOE is almost 2 quads. And I know there are many people, who don't have to be Yuzuru's fans, don't agree with the scores. Now I don't say that Yuzuru was underscored or anything. I think his LP's score is fine more or less. The issue lies with Patrick's score. Tarasova, who is clearly not Yuzuru's fans, and she was also not happy with the scores for Patrick (it's just her talk about SC and she didn't even mention Yuzuru). Tarasova has no favorite at SC, so I count her opinion in this case.
I don't think some people who disagree with the score gap are biased towards Yuzuru. They might not even care for Yuzuru at all. It's just the score and GOE in general for the 1st place in LP was rare to see, at least from their views, and they don't agree with that generosity.
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I don't think others were hitting all four of the bullet points I highlighted for their jumps, but I admit I only paid "close" attention to Yuzuru, Chan, and Murakami.
Which ones do you think didn't receive the GoE they deserved? I'd like to review them.
What's the problem with the GoE on his spins?
In terms of the GoE bullet points?
1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good, strong position(s) (including height and air/landing position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure
He got higher GoE for his spins than Yuzuru, but that's not surprising: Yuzuru spins were not as good as he normally does - less stable, more "travelling", and not as well centered. He's usually much better than that.
Yup. Which is why FS is not only about high tech difficulty, and not only about "clean" skating and perfect execution: champions do both...!
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- Jun 21, 2015
But for last years GPF Yuzu did 2 quad with fabulous quality and 2 3A with good quality and difficult entries. Quad and 3A are factored by 1. All other 3 revolution jumps are factored by 0.75. Just cannot imagine how Patrick got 18+ for his GOE with only 1 3A and 1 quad. It is hard to believe he got 1.4 for his 3T without and difficult entry.
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- Nov 12, 2013
I really don't mind Ashley's acting, it's cherry on the cake, I minded that the skate on the whole was mediocre but won gold and huge PCS when there were no technical brilliance, no choreography and transitions. Ice Dance is understood to be different from Pairs, I'd mind it equally if a Pairs with better facial expressions and triples win over a Pair with say, a couple of well executed Quads.
a) What are these factors are you talking about?
b) Where the GoE score comes from, is right there in the protocols. And there's nothing weird there.
c) Difficult entry is just 1 GoE bullet point out of 8. He hit other bullet points to get the +1's or +2's for the 3T
Seriously, everyone - when we have gripes about scores, we need better arguments than "cannot imagine" and "hard to believe".
Otherwise it just sounds like "don't want to imagine" and "don't want to believe".
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- Feb 13, 2014
I can use the same bullets for most top guys. And none of them has ever get such GOE for the same layout, even when they perform really well.
I don't want to dig up BoP's post for this case. He talked more about it. But I don't want to look for it, too many posts. :dumb: But seriously anyone give Patrick's +2 for his spins... :gclap: It's the same as people giving Liza and Ashley +3 for their spins. Enough said.
I didn't compare Patrick's spin at SC to Yuzuru's spin. I guess you are thinking I think "Yuzuru should get higher score etc" on this or that.
In fact my point is Patrick got too much. As for Yuzuru I have said the score is more or less acceptable. No one will care about adding more difficulty if the kind of scoring at SC continue.
My point is, there must be some balance between difficulty and quality.
If you only go for difficulty (difficult entries, difficult jumps, difficult steps and spins) and you get reward too much for it, it is not ok. However, if you only go for quality and ditch the difficulty, then no one will care to advance the sport either. My point is that a program with lesser layout, no matter how well you execute it, should not get too much advantage over a much more difficult layout. And of course a much more difficult layout if execute badly should not get too much advantage either. What happened at Skate Canada was that, some certain judges think the quality should be rewarded over difficulty. Ok it's their opinions. But tell me where are the difficult transitions before the jumps in Patrick's program?
I have said I am ok with the final placement, but it is no good for the sport when you can get too much GOE by deleting difficulties. You should get GOE for well executed elements, but not the top GOE ever for a programs you have taken out tons of transitions.
But anyways, been there done that. You can't rely on quality alone or difficulty alone. And what I have seen at SC, judges rewarded too much on the quality, not very balanced. That is my point.
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It's not a question of of fans thinking any such thing.
It's a question of judges applying what's written right there in the rules.
For everyone, Not just our favourites - otherwise it comes back to bite us, when the shoe is on the other foot.
And by the way "transitions" (presume you mean difficult entry) is just 1 bullet point out of 8 for a jump.
Yes, sorry everyone. I won't say any more on this.Yes, we can debate scores and things on the other threads that are dedicated to those topics. the Chan v Hanyu thread and the Skate Canada Mens events thread.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Judges are not some constant number or some machines. They're human who are affected by outside factors. I have the feeling you tend think that judges are absolute, or at least that's my feelings so sorry if it's not the case. Anyways, The issue with FS rules is that, there are various ways to twist or interprete those bullets listed in the criteria, you can always apply it for up to half of the field. But in reality we all know not half of the field get that.
Regarding the transitions, average skaters with no transitions often get low scores and they're explaining that because their programs are empty, but that doesn't apply for some veteran skaters. I don't want to bring up their names here, but anyway my point is that judges are not consistent as you think. From junior, to senior... I can list tons of examples in which judges have never been consistent from competitions to competitions. But it's too much for the thread.
Anyway, people should take into account that, judges panel change from competitions to competitions, not all judge panel are the same and the outcome might be very different with a whole new panel of judges. That's why the Italian Eurosport journalists said this when they finish their 80 minutes talk about SC: "in other competitions (with different judges) it might be very much different."
PS: In my book "difficulty" means "difficult layout" and "transitions before the jumps".
Anyway we should stop here before people get upset even more. :dance2:
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- Jan 25, 2013
I don't think it was packed with transitions, but there were still quite a few transitions that Ashley did do (not enough to merit that TR score, but it's incorrect to say she didn't have any). As far as no technical brilliance, she URed both her 3F-3T and her 3L-3S but even taking those into consideration, she still landed 5 clean triples and went for 2 triple-triple combos that each came up slightly short - no falls, good spins, good speed. Nothing that's worthy of winning Worlds any time soon.
And different strokes for different folks. I think facial expressions are certainly easier to execute than clean quads, and figure skating is a sport at the end of the day, so personally I would take the team with the harder elements executed cleanly over the skater with easier elements with better facial expressions (which is subjective anyways). Same in ice dance; I prefer teams with greater content and difficulty than those with over the top facial expressions and dramatic histrionics (a la winning dance teams in the 90s).
IMO, quality and difficulty should be equally rewarded if the judging is fair.
The bullet points are guidelines. If you look at the bullet points, you will notice that 4 of the bullet points reward quality (4,5,6,7) and 4 of the bullet points reward difficulty (1,2,3,8). So the bullet points themselves indicates that the judging system intends to reward quality and difficulty equally. In practice, we see that judges give +1 for jumps with only quality, and +1 for jumps with only difficulty and +2 for jumps with both quality and difficulty. (+3 is for jumps with outstanding quality and very difficult transitions etc. If a jump has half quality and half difficulty, then it’s +1. ) So this would be fair. In SC competition, we see most judges apply this to all skaters (except Patrick). The other skaters need to have both difficulty and quality to receive high GOE. If they have only difficulty or only quality, they receive half of of the reward. But when they judge Patrick, their standard is more lenient so that he gets many +2 with quality alone and no difficulty. (There are other skaters that were also clean and hit those four bullet points 4, 5,6, 7, but they don’t get that many +2’s. Honestly, the bullet points 4, 5,6,7 are quite subjective. You can apply those 4 bullet points to any performance or any skater you like. ) I’m just saying the judging standard is more lenient on Patrick than to other skaters, hence the home inflation, as a reponse to fans who think there is no home inflation. That’s why some fans would question how is it fair that Patrick’s 3T getting the same or even higher GOE than someone who had both difficult transitions and good quality in their jumps? Even Jason’s fans question what is the advantage for Jason doing those difficult spins with good speed and centering if someone else also gets the same GOE as Jason by doing much easier spins that have slower speed?
Similary for PCS, if judges give 10’s for a high quality performance that has a layout with only 1 quad and 1 axel and much less difficult transitions, what will judges give to a high quality performance that has a layout of 3 quads, 2 axels and lots of difficult transitions? Also 10? Shouldn’t the latter performance receive more than 10 for components?
So my question for Jace93 and YesWay is:
Do you think quality and difficulty should be equally rewarded or should one outweight another if the judging is fair?
IMO, quality and difficulty should be equally rewarded in order to have fair judging. Only elements with both difficulty and quality deserve high GOE. If quality alone gets too much reward or difficulty alone gets too much reward, you will always have people questioning about the fairness of judging.
Specs, maybe you should move our discussions to other relevant threads.
The bullet points are guidelines. If you look at the bullet points, you will notice that 4 of the bullet points reward quality (4,5,6,7) and 4 of the bullet points reward difficulty (1,2,3,8). So the bullet points themselves indicates that the judging system intends to reward quality and difficulty equally. In practice, we see that judges give +1 for jumps with only quality, and +1 for jumps with only difficulty and +2 for jumps with both quality and difficulty. (+3 is for jumps with outstanding quality and very difficult transitions etc. If a jump has half quality and half difficulty, then it’s +1. ) So this would be fair. In SC competition, we see most judges apply this to all skaters (except Patrick). The other skaters need to have both difficulty and quality to receive high GOE. If they have only difficulty or only quality, they receive half of of the reward. But when they judge Patrick, their standard is more lenient so that he gets many +2 with quality alone and no difficulty. (There are other skaters that were also clean and hit those four bullet points 4, 5,6, 7, but they don’t get that many +2’s. Honestly, the bullet points 4, 5,6,7 are quite subjective. You can apply those 4 bullet points to any performance or any skater you like. ) I’m just saying the judging standard is more lenient on Patrick than to other skaters, hence the home inflation, as a reponse to fans who think there is no home inflation. That’s why some fans would question how is it fair that Patrick’s 3T getting the same or even higher GOE than someone who had both difficult transitions and good quality in their jumps? Even Jason’s fans question what is the advantage for Jason doing those difficult spins with good speed and centering if someone else also gets the same GOE as Jason by doing much easier spins that have slower speed?
Similary for PCS, if judges give 10’s for a high quality performance that has a layout with only 1 quad and 1 axel and much less difficult transitions, what will judges give to a high quality performance that has a layout of 3 quads, 2 axels and lots of difficult transitions? Also 10? Shouldn’t the latter performance receive more than 10 for components?
So my question for Jace93 and YesWay is:
Do you think quality and difficulty should be equally rewarded or should one outweight another if the judging is fair?
IMO, quality and difficulty should be equally rewarded in order to have fair judging. Only elements with both difficulty and quality deserve high GOE. If quality alone gets too much reward or difficulty alone gets too much reward, you will always have people questioning about the fairness of judging.
Specs, maybe you should move our discussions to other relevant threads.
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