2016 Four Continents Ladies SP

[jenaj]

The rules state a clear forward takeoff from backwards jumps should be downgraded. Therefore anything over 180 on take off should be considered cheated since 180 is a full turn and anything over that seems "clear" to me. So those saying there is no merit and calling out pre rotated jumps are misinformed. What's unclear to me is if the judges count the body or the blade when taking this into consideration. That is assuming they take the time to look at these jumps which they can only review at regular speed for some illogical reason. I'm not as concerned with the body myself as much as the toe pick or the last blade to leave the ice. The body can wind up and lead but the blade shouldn't turn more than 180 degrees ice.

All of this may be technically correct, but it still demonstrates the "green eyeshade" approach to judging that IJS has spawned.

 

[FlattFan]

Skaters aren't judged on pre-rotations, are they? Only if the rules are changed should she be called for it. That assumes, of course, that she is in fact really "doing doubles" instead of triples. I also have a more general problem with needing to use slo-mo "jumpmatrons" to figure out if a jump is rotated correctly.

The rule book does not allow slow-mo for calling pre-rotation. So yeah, that is that. Those who slo-mo are looking for trouble when there is none.

 

[deedee1]

Only watched several ladies on TV so far.
So nice to see Brooklee and SoYoun skated clean SP. Been a while to see them such smiles after performance. Job well done! :yes: I pretty much enjoy Brooklee's step sq when she's on. SoYoung has improved presentation quite a lot, I thought.

Hoping Mirai finishing on the podium. On to the Free skate. Attack, girls, attack!!

 

[NaVi]

There is a limit to pre-rotations but judges don't look at the takeoff in slow-mo so it's not something that's really taken into account very often.

BTW, the big problem with Satako's jumps is less "pre-rotation" but "pre-pre-rotation"... like a baseball catcher that frames a pitch, she frames her jumps as starting earlier than they actually are... she's rotates her edge skate 20 or so degrees on her 3T and 3F before the toepick hits the ice and I don't think the judges are taking that into account.

 

[solani]

The rule book does not allow slow-mo for calling pre-rotation. So yeah, that is that. Those who slo-mo are looking for trouble when there is none.

Today I watched German Eurosport where the commentator Sigi Heinrich said (rough translation): "You don't believe that this is a triple lutz, because of the height of the jump. " Later he says something about that everything is fine with her jumps (although you could see clearly that at least that combo was UR on the landing in the slow-mo). I post this because if something is unbelievable, you should look into it. It's about air time and rotational speed. I just don't think that it's physically possible that her jumps are rotated. And when you watch them in slo-mo you see clearly that they aren't. And this is a sport. I just think it's grossly unfair to the other skaters, who fight against their UR's, get bad marks, downgrades and low GOE'S when there is a skater around who barely leaves the ice, has so much rotational speed going out of the jumps that you don't see the UR's on the landing. The tech panel seems to never review her jumps. I'm beginning to think that there's some kind of conspiracy. Although I'm really not into conspiracies normally.
And I would say that Satokos flip is, in reality, an underrotated loop with a weird entry. I, as a fan of this sport, have a problem with how she's rewarded for that.
EDIT: If someone needs a reminder of how a flip should really look like - here's a video of slo-mo's of Yuna doing 3F in combination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMLw5EOkq8
Just to get everything into the right perspective. Again: it's a sport.

 

[zschultz1986]

Today I watched German Eurosport where the commentator Sigi Heinrich said (rough translation): "You don't believe that this is a triple lutz, because of the height of the jump. " Later he says something about that everything is fine with her jumps (although you could see clearly that at least that combo was UR on the landing in the slow-mo). I post this because if something is unbelievable, you should look into it. It's about air time and rotational speed. I just don't think that it's physically possible that her jumps are rotated. And when you watch them in slo-mo you see clearly that they aren't. And this is a sport. I just think it's grossly unfair to the other skaters, who fight against their UR's, get bad marks, downgrades and low GOE'S when there is a skater around who barely leaves the ice, has so much rotational speed going out of the jumps that you don't see the UR's on the landing. The tech panel seems to never review her jumps. I'm beginning to think that there's some kind of conspiracy. Although I'm really not into conspiracies normally.
And I would say that Satokos flip is, in reality, an underrotated loop with a weird entry. I, as a fan of this sport, have a problem with how she's rewarded for that.
EDIT: If someone needs a reminder of how a flip should really look like - here's a video of slo-mo's of Yuna doing 3F in combination. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMLw5EOkq8
Just to get everything into the right perspective. Again: it's a sport.

Seriously, I'm so tired of Mirai his whacked by URs when it's obviously she's mostly fixed the damn problem with Tom, and if Mirai's are UR, then Sakoto's are damn well URed.

I also love how prerotation isn't looked at. A jump is, by definition, the set up, the rotation (all but 1/4th of which should be in the air), and the landing. Prerotation AND rotation after the landing leg have come back down both help cheat jumps. All things being equal between two people's jumps, the person with the higher jump should be rewarded. Looking at ONE part of the jump without looking at other parts of the jump is stupid as all hell. Either review the whole thing, or get rid of URs entirely.

As Uncle Dick has said. "There's no JUMP in that jump."

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Today I watched German Eurosport where the commentator Sigi Heinrich said (rough translation): "You don't believe that this is a triple lutz, because of the height of the jump. " Later he says something about that everything is fine with her jumps (although you could see clearly that at least that combo was UR on the landing in the slow-mo). I post this because if something is unbelievable, you should look into it. It's about air time and rotational speed. I just don't think that it's physically possible that her jumps are rotated.

Some very successful skaters like Kristi Yamaguchi and Tara Lipinski had small jumps, so that isn't necessarily an indication of under rotation. I just watched Satoko's program and it would be very hard to say with certainty that she prerotated beyond 180 degrees while viewing the jump in real time. It's much easier to view under rotation at the end in real time, which is why I find it especially odd that only the tail-end of the jump is available to the panel in slo-mo.

 

[solani]

Some very successful skaters like Kristi Yamaguchi and Tara Lipinski had small jumps, so that isn't necessarily an indication of under rotation. I just watched Satoko's program and it would be very hard to say with certainty that she prerotated beyond 180 degrees while viewing the jump in real time. It's much easier to view under rotation at the end in real time, which is why I find it especially odd that only the tail-end of the jump is available to the panel in slo-mo.

I agree. I just don't get why the tech panels aren't reviewing her landings. Because they obviously don't. At least not this season. I mean, they review all of Mao's jumps, why not all of Satoko's?

 

[dailytg20]

I'm on the fence on the pre-rotations thing.

I can see in real-time that Satoko's triples look less like jumps and more like low drag-and-drop scratch spins. On the one hand, a more specific judging criteria for jumps that incorporates slow mo on take off and perhaps even calculations on amplitude/position could help provide more transparency into what the sport considers a "perfect" jump. It would also help the skaters know exactly what they need to improve.

On the other hand, it may make the scores even more opaque to mid to casual fans, general observers at home and people in the stands who cannot see or aren't bothered by pre-rotations. As an old fart from the 6.0 days where edge calls and rotation deficits were less of a factor unless they were blatantly obvious, I am a bit biased against scoring based on the Zaprudering of skating footage.

Regardless, I think her consistency is less due to what is happening with her blades and more due to what is happening between her ears. You can have amazing jump technique with no pre-rotations but if you don't have the ability to control your emotions, handle pressure and focus your body in the moment it really doesn't matter. And while the judges scores may be inflated--which is not surprising because of that consistency and we are reaching the end of the season--I'm glad Satoko is at least aware that her jumps are her weakness and she plans to work on them in the long haul. It would be much worse if she were defensive or in complete denial about it, which seems to be the attitude of a few skaters sadly.

 

[koatcue]

The rule book does not allow slow-mo for calling pre-rotation. So yeah, that is that. Those who slo-mo are looking for trouble when there is none.

Prerotation..underrotation..- who cares if a skater has a great posture, right? ISU should abolish such nonsence!

 

[koatcue]

I agree. I just don't get why the tech panels aren't reviewing her landings. Because they obviously don't. At least not this season. I mean, they review all of Mao's jumps, why not all of Satoko's?

Ok, they don't want to nitpick her jumps, I get it. Number one Japanese who is loved by many people - that's fine too! But I'm always:ddevil: when I see she gets GOEs on her jumps!

 

[zschultz1986]

I'm on the fence on the pre-rotations thing.

I can see in real-time that Satoko's triples look less like jumps and more like low drag-and-drop scratch spins. On the one hand, a more specific judging criteria for jumps that incorporates slow mo on take off and perhaps even calculations on amplitude/position could help provide more transparency into what the sport considers a "perfect" jump. It would also help the skaters know exactly what they need to improve.

On the other hand, it may make the scores even more opaque to mid to casual fans, general observers at home and people in the stands who cannot see or aren't bothered by pre-rotations. As an old fart from the 6.0 days where edge calls and rotation deficits were less of a factor unless they were blatantly obvious, I am a bit biased against scoring based on the Zaprudering of skating footage.

Regardless, I think her consistency is less due to what is happening with her blades and more due to what is happening between her ears. You can have amazing jump technique with no pre-rotations but if you don't have the ability to control your emotions, handle pressure and focus your body in the moment it really doesn't matter. And while the judges scores may be inflated--which is not surprising because of that consistency and we are reaching the end of the season--I'm glad Satoko is at least aware that her jumps are her weakness and she plans to work on them in the long haul. It would be much worse if she were defensive or in complete denial about it, which seems to be the attitude of a few skaters sadly.

.

I don't think anyone here is saying she's not consistent, and it's very laudable that she is so consistent. I wish Ashley and Gracie had what Satoko has (in terms of consistency.) However, the beginning of the jump IS part of the jump. If you're going to ding people for being on the wrong edge, then you are taking the setup into account. Therefore, it is entirely logical that you should see if the jumps are being overly prerotated. Either get rid of all of the deductions for improper technique (which too much prerotation is) or judge the entire jump. They're not gonna get right of URs and e/!, so they should be looking at the whole jump.

I understand your point re: Casual fans and the scoring, but it's really not that hard to explain this stuff. "You're supposed to do the rotations in the air, and doing too much before or after you land is bad and the judges will deduct for it." I can see whole pieces, like how ABC used to do, what the difference between a toe jump are and an edge jumps are, what jumps are on what edges, etc." This is enough knowledge to spot what jumps are what.

The coach and the athlete should know, by the time they're seniors, what they do well, what they don't do well, and what they need to work on. Sure, the judges sheet does give coaches and athletes insight into what they should be working on, but honestly, all coaches and skaters should be using video/dartfish to review their jumps, and they should know if they're jumping properly or not.

 

[GF2445]

Pre rotation is a big no no.

 

[dailytg20]

I don't think anyone here is saying she's not consistent, and it's very laudable that she is so consistent.

Absolutely! I was more responding to the notion that the pre-rotations explained her consistency. I thought I read that in the thread but maybe I imagined it.

 

[solani]

Absolutely! I was more responding to the notion that the pre-rotations explained her consistency. I thought I read that in the thread but maybe I imagined it.

I think that it is a factor. Not the only one of course, but still a factor. And I'm sure jumping is safer the way she does it. So less risk to injure herself.

 

[zschultz1986]

Absolutely! I was more responding to the notion that the pre-rotations explained her consistency. I thought I read that in the thread but maybe I imagined it.

Well, it probably DOES help her be consistent, that she has a consistent technique that "works" for her. However, in my opinion, if she was judged accurately, she would probably be changing that technique faster, and as a result, would have temporarily less consistency, as she would be changing something.

 

[Layback11]

Satoko to Gracie, after landing all her jumps (while Gracie splats): "Hello from the podi-uuuuu-uuuuu-um! I bet you wish you'd landed ju-uuuu-uuuumps!"

Gracie to Satoko, after they both skate clean: "There's such a difference, betweeeeen us, 'cuz I rotate juuuumps..."

 

[mirai4life]

sorry this is random but does anyone know where the Mirai fan thread is?

i remember them being in The Edge but not there anymore or locked?
thanks

 

[fallingsk8er]

Mirai was great. I hope she nails her long too....

 

[stella luna]

No edge call or underrotation for Mirai. that's a good sign going into the free because she's usually on her feet.
Hope she can medal. She has a big chance if she doesn't bomb

Let's hope for