2016 Four Continents Ladies SP

[rollerblade]

Did Mirai do a flip or a loop for her solo jump? I am no tech expert, but to me the landing was gorgeous. The curve out of it was so crisp and the way she held up her free leg. It is nice to see such a confident landing.

Hmm, the solo triple was a loop. But seeing she fought for it, I'm not sure if I would call that landing gorgeous. Her opening combination was really fantastic.

 

[karne]

Well all the ladies got lenient calls, not just her.

I know that. But this is a primo example of why lenient tech panels are not doing skaters any favours.

 

[Meoima]

I know that. But this is a primo example of why lenient tech panels are not doing skaters any favours.

Oh well they actually are doing a great favor for Satoko.

 

[zakales]

The panel of tech judges get more than an abundunce of time to review all the elements in all possible modes, that's why it just bugs me why they all unanimously prop up the obvious violation of the rules according to which everyone is judged. I have nothing against Satoko, she does her best, but I call the judges for the way they incline to overlook smb's faults, prasing them with high points. It all sends a wrong picture...

 

[Tutto]

I said it before and I'll say it again - Gracie needs to leave Carroll, he can be one of the greatest coaches in FS but he is not right one for Gracie. The mere fact that he is so great only adds to the weight of expectations already on her shoulders from being USA No 1. She is desperate not to disappoint him. Michelle left Carroll because she needed to take control of her skating. Maybe Gracie needs the same. There is such a thing as too much control too much authority too much respect. I bet that in more lighter environment Gracie would loosen up. When I see Shoma and his coach laughing off their heads in the K&C I can't help feeling that Gracie needs someone younger and more approachable like that.
Carroll is not exactly young he is getting very set in his ways (as all people do with age)enough to reflect on the situation with the SP layout, more flexible coach would already to try different layouts to find out what works best.
In the end it is said people regret more not things they done but things they did not go for. Gracie is 20, if she does not try a coaching change soon she would never know if it worked.

 

[Lexiglass]

The thing with Satoko is that everything goes so fast that the prerotation can be hard to see. The panel (I think) doesn't have slo-mo of jump take-offs, so if they blink they can miss it. That she gets so much +GOE from so many judges makes me think they can't see it either. It's easy to criticize the judging but they have very limited viewing angles and few opportunities to view replay of anything other than jump landings.

I wonder about that, though. I remember when TSL went to Skate America, Jenny was adamant that after seeing Satoko in person her jumps weren't "world quality". It really struck me how shocked she was, and she went into great detail about the flaws in Satoko's technique - presumably because once she was close enough to to the ice it see them in person, the flaws were evident. Why isn't the judging panel having the same reaction? I've been puzzled about this all season.

 

[yyyskate]

I have watched Gracie practice session in person many times. One thing I noticed is that her jumping form/technique/mode seems not very stable to me. She always make small changes/adjustment/ to her jumps during practice session, including this season. While that is not what a consistent skater do in practice( at competition practice). you will find that Yuna or Miyahara or the consistent Russian skater of the season will jump exactly the same every time.
Gracie has been doing that for quite some time now. I think even Ashley has a more stable jumping mode.
Gracie has the goods , technical arsonal. Therefore, people has very high hope on her and think that all her issue is mental.
but maybe Gracie and her team needs to address this issue. finalize her jump mode.

 

[rollerblade]

Michelle left Carroll because she needed to take control of her skating.

Source?
Or just your own theory?

 

[yyyskate]

@zschultz1986 I think pre-puberty girls to consistently land jumps is TECHNICALLY easier than grown-up womanly skaters. Not only Russian babies can do that, other babies, Korean babies, Japanese babies can also do that (check out those nationals). It is not responsible to say that our "older" skaters just mentally weak, and cannot even beat babies mentally with all those years of experience. Even Yuna, arguably the mentally strongest lady skater ever, only cleaned 3 times in her long senior career (although, she managed to clean them at the most important event), and that is even less than the clean performances of babies in one season (People may be more aware of the Russian babies cos the international exposure, but other babies also were doing that too). I think Yuna's junior season is also more consistent than her senior career (it is just when people noticed her she was already 16).
That is the reason why we don't see the exciting rivals, or the clear OGM, WGM contenders like before anymore. just wondering who is the next Russian baby.
It is a loop-hole of the age limit(which is lowered further for Sochi). And figure skating insiders/coaches know this, like Raf mentioned in TSL to raise age-limit to 18 etc. And there is of course ways to fully utilize this loop-hole...
I personally really appreciate "old" skaters' effort and hardwork and dedication. and will not think any less of them if they cannot land jumps as consistent as babies.
Also, waiting for a real lady skater champion (or two just for the drama) with longevity and consistency come into the scene again.
If there are more and more lady skaters who has both longevity and consistency and tech difficult competes in the future, I will think that lady's figure skating is indeed improved. Right now, it feels like just a age trick.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I wonder about that, though. I remember when TSL went to Skate America, Jenny was adamant that after seeing Satoko in person her jumps weren't "world quality". It really struck me how shocked she was, and she went into great detail about the flaws in Satoko's technique - presumably because once she was close enough to to the ice it see them in person, the flaws were evident. Why isn't the judging panel having the same reaction? I've been puzzled about this all season.

The replay that the panel is given really isn't sufficient to accurately make edge calls and prerotation from any angle. Some of the judges are over 25m (100+ ft) away from where the skater takes off for a jump, so it is impossible to distinguish 180 vs 190 degree prerotation in real time. Commentators get a great view of these jumps from many angles in real time on their video feed so they are able to more accurately assess these things.

 

[Lexiglass]

The replay that the panel is given really isn't sufficient to accurately make edge calls and prerotation from any angle. Some of the judges are over 25m (100+ ft) away from where the skater takes off for a jump, so it is impossible to distinguish 180 vs 190 degree prerotation in real time. Commentators get a great view of these jumps from many angles in real time on their video feed so they are able to more accurately assess these things.

I'm talking about judges determining GOE's on jump, and I'm talking about watching the jumps in real time, in person. I agree, fans are overly harsh on technical panels who have limited access to replay footage. I understand why sometimes jumps are called incorrectly. But why are the judges giving out positive GOE's on jumps that apparently are evidently "not world class" in person? That's the disconnect I've never understood. It can't just be explained by camera angles or replay footage, because Jenny's comments were based on watching Satoko in person - presumably no closer than the judges.

 

[da96103]

I have watched Gracie practice session in person many times. One thing I noticed is that her jumping form/technique/mode seems not very stable to me. She always make small changes/adjustment/ to her jumps during practice session, including this season. While that is not what a consistent skater do in practice( at competition practice). you will find that Yuna or Miyahara or the consistent Russian skater of the season will jump exactly the same every time.
Gracie has been doing that for quite some time now. I think even Ashley has a more stable jumping mode.
Gracie has the goods , technical arsonal. Therefore, people has very high hope on her and think that all her issue is mental.
but maybe Gracie and her team needs to address this issue. finalize her jump mode.

Someone is throwing shade.

 

[yyyskate]

Someone is throwing shade.

:

 

[Tutto]

Source?
Or just your own theory?

Michelle said it at the time IIRC, plus Carroll said in relatively recent interview:
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2015/10/21/155145444/
''Icenetwork: When did you know Michelle was a special skater?
Carroll: I knew Michelle wanted to be the most talented skater when I first started working with her and she finished ninth (as a junior at the 1992 U.S. Championships).

We had been working for just three weeks, and I told her, "You know nothing about training and never giving up until that last pose. You never, ever, ever stop. That's the only way to develop cat-like skating." Her skates were filthy dirty with long laces. Her costumes were not appropriate. I told her, "If you want to be someone in skating, you have to work terribly, terribly hard."

We won and we lost, but we won many more times than we lost. What happened was, she wanted to be in charge of her career.''

In the same interview he said about Gracie:
''Physically, she has no limits. She has a beautiful body and she works hard. The biggest problem she has is believing in herself. She needs to feel mentally as prepared as she is physically. I have tried my best. The rest is up to her.''
To me it sounds as he is given up on her. Which a coach should never ever do IMHO

 

[yyyskate]

Gracie needs to own it herself. Her decision, Her mind. Her choice!:dev2: and her jumps too

 

[da96103]

Michelle said it at the time IIRC, plus Carroll said in relatively recent interview:
http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2015/10/21/155145444/
''Icenetwork: When did you know Michelle was a special skater?
Carroll: I knew Michelle wanted to be the most talented skater when I first started working with her and she finished ninth (as a junior at the 1992 U.S. Championships).

We had been working for just three weeks, and I told her, "You know nothing about training and never giving up until that last pose. You never, ever, ever stop. That's the only way to develop cat-like skating." Her skates were filthy dirty with long laces. Her costumes were not appropriate. I told her, "If you want to be someone in skating, you have to work terribly, terribly hard."

We won and we lost, but we won many more times than we lost. What happened was, she wanted to be in charge of her career.''

In the same interview he said about Gracie:
''Physically, she has no limits. She has a beautiful body and she works hard. The biggest problem she has is believing in herself. She needs to feel mentally as prepared as she is physically. I have tried my best. The rest is up to her.''
To me it sounds as he is given up on her. Which a coach should never ever do IMHO

I don't think that interview means Frank has given up on Gracie. He just means he has thrown the ball into her court. She needs to get it together in her head, before Frank can made more progress with her.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I'm talking about judges determining GOE's on jump, and I'm talking about watching the jumps in real time, in person. I agree, fans are overly harsh on technical panels who have limited access to replay footage. I understand why sometimes jumps are called incorrectly. But why are the judges giving out positive GOE's on jumps that apparently are evidently "not world class" in person? That's the disconnect I've never understood. It can't just be explained by camera angles or replay footage, because Jenny's comments were based on watching Satoko in person - presumably no closer than the judges.

Well, because there are aspects that contribute to GOE that have nothing to do with the quality of the jump. You can have a difficult entry. You can do steps prior to the jump (which is a different thing than a difficult entry apparently). You can have great extension on the landing. Doing those three things well could get you +2 and have nothing to do with height, distance, air position, or flow into or out of the jump.

 

[Layback11]

Yes, hopefully the word 'bomb' will be banned soon, causing everyone to pick a new term for a disastrous performance that will equally annoy someone else and wish that word erased too!

May I suggest "Mashed Potatoes?"

For example: "there's no way she'll put together two clean programs; one could be good, but the other's always Mashed Potatoes."

 

[da96103]

@karlowens2
Gracie will do very well tomorrow, as always. She'll show that she's a fighter and nothing will change. Well, I hope that something will change. Somebody here wrote (I think it was jenaj) that she should also change the order of her jumps, start with the 2A. I think that would be a good idea, to get her nerves settled. And yes, that flip isn't for her SP. She just cannot get the trouble she has with it out of her system. This will only get worse. Also because she never got an edge call on it when it was deserved.

She got a 3Fe here though.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Well, because there are aspects that contribute to GOE that have nothing to do with the quality of the jump. You can have a difficult entry. You can do steps prior to the jump (which is a different thing than a difficult entry apparently). You can have great extension on the landing. Doing those three things well could get you +2 and have nothing to do with height, distance, air position, or flow into or out of the jump.

Instead theorizing the things that could exist on a jump how about you tell us what was done in this instance that would have you awarding positive GOE. On top of that when three out of six things call for negative GOE how than does that not sort of make the whole thing a wash.