2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

[moonvine]

2017 world was a while ago. Tarah and Danny got a silver on the grand prix and won last years four continents. Tim and Ashley won a bronze on the grand prix and finished 2nd at four continents. I think other teams have caught up to them. The SBS jumps also could be overlooked in the past but it's really become a hindrance to them. Plus I truly believe that if it had been tarah and danny had been at worlds instead of Nate and Deanna, things would have gone differently and we would have had two spots still.

Like I said, I'll bet a nickel.

 

[happycamper2554]

Like I said, I'll bet a nickel.

I don't think Tim and Ashley will do it either. but we shall see.

 

[hippomoomin]

I wonder whether Ashley and Tim's height on wiki is accurate. Another tall pair with tall female partner I can think of is Dan Zhang/Hao Zhang. It appears on wikipedia Dan Zhang is taller than Ashley while Hao Zhang is shorter than Tim, yet Zhang/Zhang's figures looked better matched for pair aesthetics. I really appreciate Ashely's passion for pair skating, but I wonder how much her team can realistically overcome in terms of simple physics. On the other hand, Tim has a number of partners in the past, but he has the best results with the tallest Ashley. In this regard, they have already achieved a lot.

 

[moonvine]

I don't think Tim and Ashley will do it either. but we shall see.

I’d love to see them come in top 3. I met all 4 medalists and they are all very sweet, and OMG those ladies hair when it isn’t up. Beautiful! I had hair envy!!! I just don’t think that a top 3 finish is in the cards.

 

[happycamper2554]

at worlds? you're kdding right. James and Cipres's seasons best is almost 50 points higher the Cain/Leduc. I went back and watched their free skate and in my opinion both of Ashley's Jumps should have been called under rotated. They are not going to make it past the eye of an international panel.

 

[moonvine]

at worlds? you're kdding right. James and Cipres's seasons best is almost 50 points higher the Cain/Leduc. I went back and watched their free skate and in my opinion both of Ashley's Jumps should have been called under rotated. They are not going to make it past the eye of an international panel.

I said I hoped they would. Not that I thought they would. (I also hope I win the lottery). If you look higher in the thread you’ll see me betting a nickel they didn’t make top 10.

 

[skylark]

Yes, but they have updated all the other disciplines...men can do 4A in the short, women can do 3A (can they do 4A? I don't know). So it makes no sense to me pairs can't do quad twist.

It's a good question. You might ask in The Lutz Corner? or perhaps in the Russian Pairs Skating thread.

 

[Metis]

Yes, but they have updated all the other disciplines...men can do 4A in the short, women can do 3A (can they do 4A? I don't know). So it makes no sense to me pairs can't do quad twist.

Men can do the 4A in the short as the solo jump or the jump in combination. The mandatory Axel jump would have to be 3A (or 2A). That’s because “any triple or quadruple jump” is sufficient for the solo jump. The 4A cannot fulfill the Axel jump requirement; the technical handbook specifies that the Axel must be a double or triple.

 

[skylark]

Throwing a tiny woman around and showcasing her is a huge part of pair skating though. Without that, it might as well just be ice dance.

That's where we differ. Even Gordeeva and Grinkov were noted for their unison, their synchronicity and their quality of skating. Not just for lifts and throws. That's what I loved about them when I first saw them, and it remains so. Pairs skating is first and foremost about Skating As One. G/G were geometrically similar, and so are Ashley and Tim. Ashley and Tim's attention to unison in their lines, their positions and stretch, and their unity of purpose musically and emotionally -- all those things illustrate and highlight a very deep connection between them. YMMV.

I see their eyes meeting through both programs, and I see both playfulness (SP) and soulfulness (FS) between them. Maybe these things could be made more visible to the audience. Tarasova and Morozov are still working on that, according to a recent interview.

I love that Cain/Leduc have visibly earned their improvement in pairs elements. They've made steady progress. If you look at their scores over time, both at nationals and international competitions, the judges are seeing it and applauding and rewarding their progress.

And they've come to it by a unique route among pairs. Their journey as a pair makes them different, their beautiful lines make them stand-outs, and their unison is something I'd love to see more pairs aspire to. :luv17:

 

[Mathman]

Men can do the 4A in the short as the solo jump or the jump in combination. The mandatory Axel jump would have to be 3A (or 2A). That’s because “any triple or quadruple jump” is sufficient for the solo jump. The 4A cannot fulfill the Axel jump requirement; the technical handbook specifies that the Axel must be a double or triple.

I look forward to someone trying 4A = solo jump, 3A+2T combination, and 2A for required Axel.

 

[Metis]

I look forward to someone trying 4A = solo jump, 3A+2T combination, and 2A for required Axel.

I think you’ve found Hanyu’s galaxy brain layout, except it’ll be 4A, 2A / 3A-3T.

 

[skylark]

Sorry, this glazed right by me or I glazed right over it. :hpull:

OK, it definitely would not demoralize the country.

And I will bet you a nickel we don't get 2 spots back in pairs I would be very happy to lose it!

When I said demoralize the country, I was thinking "Figure Skating Universe of the USA." Or that's the closest I can come to what I was thinking. :dance2:

I don't want US figure skating to go the way of USA gymnastics. And I still think that jumping a 7th-place finisher at Nationals over six well-qualified teams (or athletes, as the case may be) would demoralize the whole competition, the skaters, the fans, etc. Especially in a year when only one team gets to go to Worlds.

I'm not a betting human, but if I were I'd wager a hell of a lot more than a nickel on Ashley and Tim's chances to earn two spots back. :cool14:

 

[moonvine]

Sorry, this glazed right by me or I glazed right over it. :hpull:



When I said demoralize the country, I was thinking "Figure Skating Universe of the USA." Or that's the closest I can come to what I was thinking. :dance2:

I don't want US figure skating to go the way of USA gymnastics. And I still think that jumping a 7th-place finisher at Nationals over six well-qualified teams (or athletes, as the case may be) would demoralize the whole competition, the skaters, the fans, etc. Especially in a year when only one team gets to go to Worlds.

I'm not a betting human, but if I were I'd wager a hell of a lot more than a nickel on Ashley and Tim's chances to earn two spots back. :cool14:

I don’t think K/K should jump over anyone right now. He’s injured and I don’t believe there is any way on this earth they would have finished in 7th were they not injured. I did not know exactly what was going on in the long, but I knew something was terribly wrong and most likely an injury. However, had they finished 2nd or 3rd, I think USFS would be extremely foolish to not send them, especially with just one spot. Personally I think it is crazy to hang everything on a single competition at which everyone knows the scoring is wonky. Let’s say somehow Nathan fell on every single jump in the short and long (I know this would never happen, it’s hypothetical) and ended up in 5th. Would you really think USFS should not send him to Worlds based on the result of a single competition?

In my opinion...the USFS should be trying to send the strongest team they possibly can...not just whoever finishes in certain places in a competition that is scored very differently from International competitions. Oh well, I’m not in charge, and Chris is injured. May he recover quickly and with little pain.

 

[Hevari]

I don’t think K/K should jump over anyone right now. He’s injured and I don’t believe there is any way on this earth they would have finished in 7th were they not injured. I did not know exactly what was going on in the long, but I knew something was terribly wrong and most likely an injury. However, had they finished 2nd or 3rd, I think USFS would be extremely foolish to not send them, especially with just one spot. Personally I think it is crazy to hang everything on a single competition at which everyone knows the scoring is wonky. Let’s say somehow Nathan fell on every single jump in the short and long (I know this would never happen, it’s hypothetical) and ended up in 5th. Would you really think USFS should not send him to Worlds based on the result of a single competition?

In my opinion...the USFS should be trying to send the strongest team they possibly can...not just whoever finishes in certain places in a competition that is scored very differently from International competitions. Oh well, I’m not in charge, and Chris is injured. May he recover quickly and with little pain.

Hmmm... Seems that USFS forms the teams based not only on the Nats results but has kinda ranking based on whole performanse in the first part of season (GP/Challengers/B-Internationals/Nationals). But remember - last season USFS was heavily critisized after not including into Olympics team Ross Miner who finished second on Nats but totally messed the GP....

 

[moonvine]

Hmmm... Seems that USFS forms the teams based not only on the Nats results but has kinda ranking based on whole performanse in the first part of season (GP/Challengers/B-Internationals/Nationals). But remember - last season USFS was heavily critisized after not including into Olympics team Ross Miner who finished second on Nats but totally messed the GP....

They were criticized by some. They were not criticized by me. Again it is their job to send the strongest team possible, not to give someone a fun Olympic or World Championship appearance based largely on their performance at a single competition. If they want to give someone a fun experience and not worry about results, they can send them to 4ccs or GP events where no spots are on the line. I know this isn’t a popular opinion.

 

[Hevari]

They were criticized by some. They were not criticized by me. Again it is their job to send the strongest team possible, not to give someone a fun Olympic or World Championship appearance based largely on their performance at a single competition. If they want to give someone a fun experience and not worry about results, they can send them to 4ccs or GP events where no spots are on the line. I know this isn’t a popular opinion.

I mean that USFS has some kind of a ranking based on performanse in the first part of season. And this ranking decides who will be included in the Worlds teamfor example. Not some guys from USFS meet, discuss and decide (like the coaches board in Russia or Ukraine), but the ranking system decides....

 

[skylark]

Here's the system USFS uses. I copied it from an NBC Sports article about Stellato/Bartholomay's coach's, um, remarks.
https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...s-four-continents-selection-snub-stuns-coach/

Per U.S. Figure Skating, this is the selection criteria the committee votes on:

To create a pool of athletes to be considered for selection to the Four Continents Team, the International Committee will take into consideration placement, performance (which can include performance data) and the competitive field of the events listed below in priority order:

The events have been stratified into tiers from the highest value events in Tier 1 through the lowest value events in Tier 3. Events within each tier shall be evaluated at equal weight.

Tier 1

2019 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2018 ISU Grand Prix Final
2018 ISU World Figure Skating Championships

Tier 2

2018 Grand Prix Series Competitions
2018 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships

Tier 3

2018 Challenger Series Events and other senior international competitions after September 1, 2018
2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2018 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
2018 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
https://olympics.nbcsports.com/2019...s-four-continents-selection-snub-stuns-coach/​

ETA: I just noticed this is the selection for 4CC, not Worlds. But most importantly, it shows that the committee uses criteria, like Hevari said.

 

[Mathman]

Not some guys from USFS meet, discuss and decide (like the coaches board in Russia or Ukraine), but the ranking system decides....

Actually, I believe that this is exactly what the USFSA selection committee does. The ranking system provides some guidelines about what "those guys from the USFS" are supposed to be taking into account.

 

[happycamper2554]

Jim Peterson is salty because he used to coach Kayne and O'shea, but they left him. He thought he got the best of them by S/B beating them at nationals, but K/O got the last laugh based on body of work.

 

[el henry]

Jim Peterson is salty because he used to coach Kayne and O'shea, but they left him. He thought he got the best of them by S/B beating them at nationals, but K/O got the last laugh based on body of work.

Jim Peterson is understandably upset because Deanna and Nate weren’t selected. Which many fans, who aren’t just fans of one team, are as well. Deanna and Nate were third and Tarah and Danny were not. I understand why Tarah and Danny were selected, but I also feel for Deanna and Nate.

Jim P. wanting the last laugh? I think not. Tarah and Danny have said many times that they moved to Colorado for the extensive medical facilities needed for Tarah’s rehab. Jim wished them a fond farewell. No drama there

(or if there is a public source for dissension, rather than random fans that I have read on social media making it up based on their own conclusions or surmise, I would like to see it.)

Best of luck to all US Pairs at 4CC and Worlds