2018-19 U.S. Pairs' Figure Skating

[happycamper2554]

Sorry I don't believe that he wished them a fond farewell. That statement sounded like he had a gun to his head. I don't think he's upset at them. But I think he's upset that they left. There will never be any proof, but I will never believe that there was no drama involved. There is always drama involved. The fact that he calls them Kayne and O'shea in his comments like he doesn't even know them is enough proof for me.

 

[skylark]

Before I get to my main subject, I want to wish Ashley and Tim, Haven and Brandon, and Tarah and Danny all the best, their most-thrilled-with-themselves skating, and a happy fulfilling week at 4CC.

So, I'm obsessed with why Danny and Tarah's lift came down. I watched their programs when they did it well. What bothers me is that it looks like a lift where she's just dead weight and it's all on Danny to complete it. That's never the case with a pairs lift, I know, there's timing, position, all sorts of micro-movements that they both have to execute. So I don't blame Danny. It also bothers me that she didn't acknowledge and comfort and at least look at him after the lift failed, but that's another issue.

What I've found is that Cain/Leduc, Denney/Frazier, Stellato/Bartholomay, Kayne/O'Shea, and Knierim/Knierim all do the the Group 3 Lift as the last (or for D/F, next to last) lift in their FS. They've all gotten Level 4 on the lift internationally; and C/L, D/F, and S/B got levl 4 at Nats. (GOEs differ.) But the thing is ... Danny's the only one who only has to muscle all Tarah's weight up at the beginning of the lift. The others begin the lift with the 2 holding hands and the woman's other hand on the man's shoulder. (for K/K, it's a one-handed lift, but Alexa also supports part of her weight with her hand on his shoulder, to get the lift up.) All the pairs go one-handed (with the woman "Look, Ma, No Hands!") at some point during the lift. Very impressive.:hap57:

K/O's Group 3 lift is their most impressive lift in this FS, IMO, when done well. But when I look all of the others' Group 3 lifts, I like them all better than K/O's, mostly because of K/O's muscling-up look at the beginning. All the others are so smooth and really showcase the way "it takes two." And all the others have this beautifully airy quality, where the lady's air position and arm and leg extensions are just gorgeous.


at 3:11 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPy2gCIWC6E&t=214s - Ashley and Tim

at 3:58 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Rf3H2-Fhs - Haven and Brandon

at 4:02 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSAFdN4hp2Y&t=262s Tarah and Danny at Talinn

at 4:15 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgYTPyQ3l84&t=262s Alexa and Chris at Golden Spin

I'm looking for a working link to Deanna & Nate's national FS. If I find one, I'll put it here.

ETA: okay, it's working for me now on 2/7/19. At 3:34 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqx4JPPAYlo - Deanna & Nate


So, I really hope Danny and Tarah will change how they do that lift in next year's programs. Does anyone here have any thoughts? I hope so ... and thank you for being here so I can get this off my chest where people care! Or at least understand my being obsessed this way.

.... And on that other issue, I was glad to hear Brooke Castile (a former US pairs champion) say on the Ice Desk what I was already thinking. Michael asked her, "well, what do you do for 10-15 seconds when a lift comes down? Jazz hands?" LOL. And Brooke said (paraphrasing), you hold hands while you skate through it, you look at each other, and you comfort each other when it's over, and you don't forget that you're still skating a program. That is so opposite from everything that happened at the end of that FS, when Danny was doing all the comforting, all the apologizing, and Tarah was getting the attention. I'm having a hard time with it; but I'll get over it. Hopefully when I see them do that program this week!

at 10:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyiWcnCTXQ8 Ice Desk Pairs FS (Warning: there's another audio going on in the background ... I can tune it out mentally, but I know not everyone can.)

 

[Hevari]

at 3:14 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOWyeaucgjo Ashley and Tim
at 3:15 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gKphsyH7So&t=237s Haven and Brandon
at 3:32 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqx4JPPAYlo Deanna and Nate

These links don't work...

 

[skylark]

^^^ thanks. I'll try again. They worked for me, but you're right, now for some reason they don.t.

at 3:11 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPy2gCIWC6E&t=214s - Ashley and Tim

at 3:58 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5Rf3H2-Fhs - Haven and Brandon

at 3:34 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqx4JPPAYlo

 

[SnowWhite]

I have seen comments from a few people before that Tarah doesn't tend to engage her body and support her own weight as much as she could in lifts. I don't have the technical knowledge to know how true that is.

 

[happycamper2554]

Go join TSL, they love to talk about how Danny is g-d's gift to skating and Tarah is the only thing holding him back. He said it was his mistake that caused the lift to go down. No offense I trust his opinion more than your's or anyone else's. Of course he could be trying to take the attention away from her. Plus as for the reactions we only see 5 minutes of their reaction we don't know what happens behind closed doors. Maybe he doesn't want to be comforted in that way. I feel like people always blame her for everything. She has the curse of not being able to hide what she is thinking or feeling.. Considering Ashley almost died on a lift a month ago. I don't think I would be using them as lift examples......

https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...om-injury-with-us-title.aspx?path=figureskate

 

[skylark]

He said it was his mistake that caused the lift to go down. No offense I trust his opinion

That's not Danny giving an objective assessment of the lift fail. It's his character. You have your view and I have mine.

Considering Ashley almost died on a lift a month ago. I don't think I would be using them as lift examples......

https://usfigureskatingfanzone.com/...om-injury-with-us-title.aspx?path=figureskate

Right after the accident, Ashley tweeted about how she was doing. The last sentence in her tweet was "Please don't blame anyone." That's a classy and in my opinion balanced view of pairs skating. The whole idea is that everything, every smallest thing, is teamwork. That includes the thrilling victories and the terrifying accidents. Ashley and Tim have said that their partnership is based on the idea of two equal individuals coming together as one.

I read that article earlier and had a good time noticing the skaters mentioned with their birthdates, and figuring out their Sun Signs. Nate B. is a Taurus ... how perfect is that. Sturdy, strong, compact.

 

[happycamper2554]

I love zodiac i'm ready to play this game. I'll do the podium 3 good traits based on their sign and what they show us. Interesting that we have so many repeat signs. in 8 people, 3 Taurus, 2 Cancer

Ironic that Tarah is also a Taurus. Practical, Ambitious, Reliable Stubborn
Danny is an Aquarius. Friendly, Intelligent, Loyal Stubborn


Alexa is a Gemini. Enthusiastic, Witty, Adjustable
Chris is a Scorpio. Focused, Balanced, Intuitive,

Ashley is a Cancer. Creative, Loving, Spontaneous
Tim is a Taurus. Dependable, Patient, Persistent

Deanna is a Cancer. Protective, Spontaneous, Emotional
Nate is a Taurus. Dependable, Down to earth, Persistent

 

[Bcash]

Is Pairs really the stepchild in US figure skating? In the sense that talented skaters simply don’t think about entering it? I watched most of the top finishers and wow none of them, esp the women (save for Alexa K. ) has any of the finesse and carriage of the top tier International pairs for the last decade and more. And all technical elements look either wonky or full of effort. You can see it’s not that they are undertrained. It’s just that they don’t have that body awareness and the feel for the ice. Just rough.

 

[skylark]

I love zodiac i'm ready to play this game. I'll do the podium 3 good traits based on their sign and what they show us. Interesting that we have so many repeat signs. in 8 people, 3 Taurus, 2 Cancer

Ironic that Tarah is also a Taurus. Practical, Ambitious, Reliable Stubborn
Danny is an Aquarius. Friendly, Intelligent, Loyal Stubborn


Alexa is a Gemini. Enthusiastic, Witty, Adjustable
Chris is a Scorpio. Focused, Balanced, Intuitive,

Ashley is a Cancer. Creative, Loving, Spontaneous
Tim is a Taurus. Dependable, Patient, Persistent

Deanna is a Cancer. Protective, Spontaneous, Emotional
Nate is a Taurus. Dependable, Down to earth, Persistent

Lovely!

Haven is a Scorpio. Creative, Cerebral, Passionate
Brandon is a Scorpio. Intense, Intuitive, Original

 

[happycamper2554]

I don't know why I forgot about them and put Chris and Alexa on the podium when clearly they weren't. Clearly I'm loosing it. Interesting that they are both the same sign.

 

[skylark]

I actually enjoyed your "traits" description of Alexa and Chris very much. It describes their on-ice, and off-ice personalities to a T!

 

[labgoat]

I've updated links on US Championships videos thread.

 

[moonvine]

Is Pairs really the stepchild in US figure skating? In the sense that talented skaters simply don’t think about entering it? I watched most of the top finishers and wow none of them, esp the women (save for Alexa K. ) has any of the finesse and carriage of the top tier International pairs for the last decade and more. And all technical elements look either wonky or full of effort. You can see it’s not that they are undertrained. It’s just that they don’t have that body awareness and the feel for the ice. Just rough.

My opinion - yes, pairs is the poor stepchild of US skating. I don't know what to do about it. Haul John Nicks out (is he retired?) to match young pairs up like he did Tai & Randy and then pray they don't break up?

 

[skylark]

Nicks retired from traveling to competitions in 2013; that's why Ashley Wagner had to go to Rafael. But I believe he still helps Jenny and Todd in the rink. Maybe others too.

Deanna Stellato and Jenny Kirk have both said that in their day (the 90s, early oughts) people, or at least in their world of ladies' skaters, considered that if you went to pairs it was because you couldn't do well enough in singles. Deanna is a great example -- she told TSL that she'd had no idea she'd be so excited about skating pairs ... and she said being thrown is "the most fun ever."

I think that "poor stepchild" idea is changing. Each coaching team is still independent, but when Mitch Moyers suggested tryouts for Ashley Cain with Tim Leduc, and the same month, suggested a tryout for Deanna with Nate Bartholomay, that indicated a new attitude of USFS doing something to advance US pairs.

And it's working. I loved 2016 nationals (especially Tarah and Danny; that was when I really experienced the thrill of clean programs. Tarah and Danny were the last skaters in the SP and the FS, and both times, they were the ONLY pair who skated clean out of the 12 or 13 couples. It was something else.

But now, I love pairs even more; the competition has noticeably stepped up in the top group. With the addition of C/L and S/B, everyone is challenged. The Pairs Press Conference after the FS is a great "listen" and "watch." This idea was touched on. I had the feeling everyone agreed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xb5ZYTsIZM

to match young pairs up like he did Tai & Randy and then pray they don't break up?

Or, rather than pray, instill the idea in them early that it'll be better for them if they weather the storms together rather than break up. I think you have something here. Nicks was from Britain, so the European idea of pairs was ingrained and maybe he was good at stressing the benefits of staying together. Tai is still saying she wished US pairs would stay together. All the top US pairs except Denney/Frazier had other partners when they were young. Tarah didn't, but she was 18 when she switched to pairs. Danny had had other partners.

Also, I noticed that Jim Peterson finally lets his pairs have outside choreographers. Ashley and Tim's programs are by Camerlengo this year, and that's new. Did someone at USFS encourage that? I don't know.

 

[Hevari]

I've updated links on US Championships videos thread.

Where they are?)

 

[Hevari]

Also, I noticed that Jim Peterson finally lets his pairs have outside choreographers. Ashley and Tim's programs are by Camerlengo this year, and that's new. Did someone at USFS encourage that? I don't know.

Is it a problem in the US to have an "outside" choreographer? Seems that you are free to work whom you want with - if you have money...Or I'm wrong?

 

[happycamper2554]

Jim Peterson has almost always choreographed his pairs himself. The first season this didn't happen was 2017-2018. I believe Dalilah also choreographed many of the programs for her students. Thus they has most of the U.S. pairs so no it wasn't a thing for a while.

 

[skylark]

Where they are?)

here you go. https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?78289-2019-US-Nationals-Video-Thread/page2

ETA: The links on that page aren't working. I think NBC deleted them "for copyright reasons" but now most are working again. You're better off to use the links I gave, above. Deanna's and Nate's is working again too At least for me.

Have you watched my favorite younger US Pair yet? Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov. They were juniors just last year. They struggled a bit on the FS with the lift (really, it was a terrible night for lifts, until Ashley and Tim came through without even a wobble, and there was air in the arena again!) ... but they skated beautifully in the SP. And in the FS, they were the only pair besides Ashley and Tim who landed a 3-2-2 combo beautifully.

ETA: here's Audrey and Misha's SP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rxlO810qeY

 

[skylark]

Dalilah was sending Alexa and Chris to Julie Marcotte for several years, and maybe some of her other top pairs.

Money is part of the equation, and prize money for medaling at competitions helps a great deal. But Nate said several years ago that they didn't need any choreographer but Jim. However, I think having another person's eyes on a pair or skater can be a genius way to show something previously hidden. I will say that Jim has a great sense of how to use music to create momentum throughout the skate and a big finish that's thrilling, if the skate is clean. And I've always felt that sort of music helps the pair give something extra, too. On a good day.