2021 U.S. Nationals: Senior Ladies - Free Skate

[alexocfp]

Too simplistic and makes no sense. What are you talking about? The U.S. ladies are strong and have depth. There is no gymnastic analogy. In figure skating, politics has a great deal to do with judging placements. Plus, Rusfed politics and the rise of Eteri's teenybopper phenoms has overtaken the discipline and the sport.

The landscape has changed. The U.S. was spoiled during the Michelle Kwan era. U.S. fed has always been behind-the-times and have always lacked political savvy. Forget about long term, strategic thinking to benefit their athletes. It is what it is. But it's not as woeful as fans on every forum love to lament. I always point out that U.S. ladies still hold the record for most Worlds and Olympics medals. It will take Russia, Japan, and South Korea many more years to catch up to that record. At this rate, Russia might get there first, but they have a long way to go. And trends and politics can change.

I'm more concerned about the welfare and well-being of athletes and of the sport than about yahooing for teenybopper quads and 3-axels. When Eteri began making waves on the scene with Lipnitskaya et al., the key to her success was planned strategy and the packaging methodology that she learned during her time in the U.S. She gave Lipnitskaya something that camouflaged her weaknesses and brought a tear to audiences eyes. Medvedeva always had poor technique, but blazing determination, quick rotations and consistency. Med benefited from Gracie Gold's meltdown at 2016 Worlds. It is what it is.

Kaitlyn Osmond was the best all-around skater among the ladies at the 2018 Olympics, but due to the over-hype and Rusfed politics and competitive strengths of Zagitova and Medvedeva, it was apparently in the bag that the competition for gold was only between those two Russian ladies. But look who won Worlds that year. The following year Zagitova had grown, Medvedeva had fled to Orser for redemption. No more bells and whistles for Zagitova to hide her tech weaknesses. Her crossovers were ugly, but she's beautiful and her competitive mindset along with justification by the judges for her Olympic gold, helped Zagitova to win 2019 Worlds. Where is Zag now?

I will say that the current crop of Eteri phenoms don't require the bells and whistles quite as much, and a few of them learned better technique prior to being coached by Eteri so that helps. To each their own. I'm just not that into watching skinny, desperate teenyboppers with Olympic rings in their eyes being overpraised and over-rewarded for quad and 3-axel smackdowns.

I want to see complete expressive skating with technical excellence and depth by mature young ladies who aren't daunted by being disrespected and having a nearly impossible mountain to climb, often domestically and internationally.

Thank you Bradie Tennell!!! Thank you Amber Glenn!!! Thank you Karen Chen!!!

Keep your head held high, Mariah Bell!!! Kudos Alysa Liu for your competitive grit!!!

It’s always been follow the leader. Russia is the power now, so you need big jumps to win big competitions currently

Down the road, the criteria to win may change. But the jumps have been what’s been marketed.

And when the US was the power, let’s not pretend they weren’t selling or marketing their skaters and their skill set. And everyone else was crying about us dominance. It’s always been like that.

I like where figure skating is going. It’s an exciting time to be a fan. The jumps and speed of the sport is phenomenal. The Russian ladies have been absolutely fantastic for figure skating, and my hope is that a few more counties pour money to replicate their success. We need more Russiaot less.

Either the US gets some jumpers quickly, or starts finding other ways to start wining.

And it’s all subjective anyway. You can still enjoy “expressive skating” even if it doesn’t medal in the current climate.

Personally, I’ll take the quads and the medal though.

The USA also has the most Davis Cups in tennis history, but nobody is saying that they are the best tennis nation currently.

The US ladies’ figure skating glory seems to be black and white footage though. Seems like 2 generations ago.

That being said, one of the feel good stories of this season has been Amber Glenn! How can you root against her? And no bit of marketing can produce that!

 

[rain]

Glenn is actually giving me Kaori Sakamoto vibes. A strong jumper who is rough around the edges but still lots of potential. You could see she was determined in that FS. I think sending her to Worlds over Mariah might be a a fairer decision - but it’s unlikely international judges will give Glenn that kind of PCS. But if Mariah has a FS like she did here, then 3 spots is likely gone. I feel like they might actually send Karen as the second spot. They can justify sending Bell over Glenn but Chen has more clout and showed up to these Nationals. Her landings might get destroyed by international tech panels though so that’s a consideration too. Almost all the skaters were given leniency in some form here (see: Tennell’s UR in the SP).

Side note: I think Amber Glenn is the first openly LGBT woman to win a senior medal at Nationals, if I’m not mistaken?

I think Amber Glenn is better than Sakamoto in terms of grace, polish, and musical interpretation. She reminds me more of Kaetlyn Osmond with the big powerful jumps and speed. No wonder I like her so much.

 

[ice coverage]

... And apparently the number of coaches is limited as well? ...

Yes, this year's limit is that one coach per entry is allowed to be credentialed.
"Entry" as opposed to "skater." Meaning that one dance couple is allowed only one coach; similarly, one pair is allowed only one coach.
[Even in normal years, an entry cannot bring an unlimited number of coaches who would receive event credentials, but the normal limit is not as strict.]

Another limitation this year is that only one coach per entry is allowed at each practice/warm-up session and at each competition session. What I mean, for example:

Peter Cain and Darlene Cain both are coaches for Amber Glenn and for Ashley/Timothy. I have seen that both Peter and Darlene are inside the Nats bubble -- which is totally fine (with one Cain credentialed because of Amber, and the other Cain credentialed because of Ashley/Timothy).​

But at sessions at the 2021 Nats rink, only one Cain at a time can be working with Ashley/Timothy (and the same was true for Amber) -- even though both Cains legitimately have Nats credentials.​

---

... Maybe the trappings are not as important to the athletes? ...

It is my hope/belief that the athletes fully understand that during the pandemic, it makes sense to skip most of the usual trappings.

In normal years, I hope that most skaters would enjoy the trappings -- the red carpet, the congratulations from officials who bestow the medals, the victory lap, etc.
IIRC, some repeat champions have said that it never gets old to hear the national anthem and see the flag as they are standing on the podium.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think Amber Glenn is better than Sakamoto in terms of grace, polish, and musical interpretation. She reminds me more of Kaetlyn Osmond with the big powerful jumps and speed. No wonder I like her so much.

Agreed. Sakamoto’s jumps are some of the most powerful but Amber does have more finesse in her arms. I think the Osmond comparison is accurate too.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It’s always been follow the leader. Russia is the power now, so you need big jumps to win big competitions currently

Down the road, the criteria to win may change. But the jumps have been what’s been marketed.

And when the US was the power, let’s not pretend they weren’t selling or marketing their skaters and their skill set. And everyone else was crying about us dominance. It’s always been like that.

I like where figure skating is going. It’s an exciting time to be a fan. The jumps and speed of the sport is phenomenal. The Russian ladies have been absolutely fantastic for figure skating, and my hope is that a few more counties pour money to replicate their success. We need more Russiaot less.

Either the US gets some jumpers quickly, or starts finding other ways to start wining.

And it’s all subjective anyway. You can still enjoy “expressive skating” even if it doesn’t medal in the current climate.

Personally, I’ll take the quads and the medal though.

The USA also has the most Davis Cups in tennis history, but nobody is saying that they are the best tennis nation currently.

The US ladies’ figure skating glory seems to be black and white footage though. Seems like 2 generations ago.

That being said, one of the feel good stories of this season has been Amber Glenn! How can you root against her? And no bit of marketing can produce that!

I feel like critiquing the US because they used to be dominant in women but now Russia is on top, works against Russia in other disciplines.

Russia was dominant in ice dance/men but now the US is on top, and for quite a stretch Russia’s ice dance and men have been medal contenders but never won any World or individual Olympic golds either.

I’ll personally take quads over easier content too if we are looking at deciding who should win, but in terms of aesthetic qualities and expression the quadstars still have a ways to go. Karen Chen will likely never be as technically superb as Trusova but Trusova will likely never have the artistry and musicality of Chen. It’s valid for people to appreciate both.

 

[moonvine]

Again, it would absolutely be if she fell 12 times in trials as you mentioned. Obviously I’m using your hypothetical. You shouldn’t be allowed to represent your country if you aren’t a medalist in your national championship that year

Also the same if Chen fell on every jump and finished 5th in the championships.

In a perfect world, the spots will just go automatically to to people that place 1-2 or 1-2-3.

Take selection away from the politics and backroom deals.

These back room deals don’t help the sport in the long run.

Full disclosure too:
Don’t watch any figure skating besides the single ladies so I have no emotional attachment vis a vis the politics and favoritism with the men, pair, or ice dance selection

I couldn’t care less about gymnastics, don’t follow it, don’t care.

I’m giving an example of a judged sport for which picking teams is a good thing for the United States in terms of winning medals. Gold medals. If something insane happened and say Joe Blow John Smith and Larry Doe went 1,2,3 (I don’t want to pick any of our actual men out because I love them all). USA Fed can try to keep our 3 spots and send Nathan, Jason and Vincent. Or they can send Joe, John and Larry to have a fun time and a good experience and lose a couple of spots. US Nationals has prizes. They are medals. They aren’t automatic spots on Worlds/Olympic teams. I really don’t get your position. You seem to desperately want medals. But you don’t want to necessarily send our best people. Nathan is the best male figure skater in the world. You don’t keep him at home. The situation is not as clear cut among the ladies. But I want our 3 spots back. Then you have a spot to play with and nurture young talent. I don’t know when Worlds requires entries to be in. But ideally in my opinion you’d take the top 5-6 ladies and have them do some skate offs & etc. Something. Not this year of course when everything is topsy turvy

 

[moonvine]

I feel like jeering the US because they used to be dominant in women but now Russia is on top, works against Russia in other disciplines.

Russia was dominant in ice dance/men but now the US is on top, and for quite a stretch Russia’s ice dance and men have been medal contenders but never won any World or individual Olympic golds either.

I’ll personally take quads over easier content too if we are looking at deciding who should win, but in terms of aesthetic qualities and expression the quadstars still have a ways to go. Karen Chen will likely never be as technically superb as Trusova but Trusova will likely never have the artistry and musicality of Chen. It’s valid for people to appreciate both.

If only it were valid to SCORE both highly I’d have far fewer issues with ladies figure skating.

 

[moonvine]

It’s always been follow the leader. Russia is the power now, so you need big jumps to win big competitions currently

Down the road, the criteria to win may change. But the jumps have been what’s been marketed.

And when the US was the power, let’s not pretend they weren’t selling or marketing their skaters and their skill set. And everyone else was crying about us dominance. It’s always been like that.

I like where figure skating is going. It’s an exciting time to be a fan. The jumps and speed of the sport is phenomenal. The Russian ladies have been absolutely fantastic for figure skating, and my hope is that a few more counties pour money to replicate their success. We need more Russiaot less.

Either the US gets some jumpers quickly, or starts finding other ways to start wining.

And it’s all subjective anyway. You can still enjoy “expressive skating” even if it doesn’t medal in the current climate.

Personally, I’ll take the quads and the medal though.

The USA also has the most Davis Cups in tennis history, but nobody is saying that they are the best tennis nation currently.

The US ladies’ figure skating glory seems to be black and white footage though. Seems like 2 generations ago.

That being said, one of the feel good stories of this season has been Amber Glenn! How can you root against her? And no bit of marketing can produce that!

I don’t like Russian figure skating. I don’t care about quads. Before you tell me that’s what wins medals ..I am aware. I was referring to your statement that “it is an exciting time to be a fan.” For me it is not.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Regarding Nationals being a be all and end all I think track record is important, especially when competing internationally. There are several skaters who do well at Nationals but then crumble on the World stage. Worlds is critical for spots and opportunities for the country’s TEAM the following year so I think it’s understandable if a country is reluctant to send a one off, and it sends the wrong message to someone who has been reliable.

While some might think that is unfair, the people who light it up at Nationals are more than welcome to do well in their other competitions that season and make a better case for themselves.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If only it were valid to SCORE both highly I’d have far fewer issues with ladies figure skating.

I think from a sport standpoint quads are more notable though than artistry. I know people want the artistic mark bumped up to even the playing field but then you get to a competition without quadsters and suddenly “artistic skaters” with low content or mistakes end up winning over 7-triple programs from putatively inferior skaters. It’s never a good idea to make a systemic change based on the needs/circumstances of a few.

 

[alexocfp]

I’m giving an example of a judged sport for which picking teams is a good thing for the United States in terms of winning medals. Gold medals. If something insane happened and say Joe Blow John Smith and Larry Doe went 1,2,3 (I don’t want to pick any of our actual men out because I love them all). USA Fed can try to keep our 3 spots and send Nathan, Jason and Vincent. Or they can send Joe, John and Larry to have a fun time and a good experience and lose a couple of spots. US Nationals has prizes. They are medals. They aren’t automatic spots on Worlds/Olympic teams. I really don’t get your position. You seem to desperately want medals. But you don’t want to necessarily send our best people. Nathan is the best male figure skater in the world. You don’t keep him at home. The situation is not as clear cut among the ladies. But I want our 3 spots back. Then you have a spot to play with and nurture young talent. I don’t know when Worlds requires entries to be in. But ideally in my opinion you’d take the top 5-6 ladies and have them do some skate offs & etc. Something. Not this year of course when everything is topsy turvy

Absolutely you want medals.

The best people are the ones that are in form now. That’s how I see it.

And the third spot won’t go to any young talent. It will just go to another US fed favorite.

Also, if you want to start winning medals, the current established crop has shown that they are longshots to begin work (Bell et all).

So, why throw away the spot and not take a shot with someone fresh?

 

[alexocfp]

I don’t like Russian figure skating. I don’t care about quads. Before you tell me that’s what wins medals ..I am aware. I was referring to your statement that “it is an exciting time to be a fan.” For me it is not.

Don’t worry, I never had you in the fan of Russian figure skating column. Haha

And it’s your right to like, or not like, whatever you want. That’s what makes sports fun. That it can stir passions on both sides.

 

[alexocfp]

I feel like critiquing the US because they used to be dominant in women but now Russia is on top, works against Russia in other disciplines.

Russia was dominant in ice dance/men but now the US is on top, and for quite a stretch Russia’s ice dance and men have been medal contenders but never won any World or individual Olympic golds either.

I’ll personally take quads over easier content too if we are looking at deciding who should win, but in terms of aesthetic qualities and expression the quadstars still have a ways to go. Karen Chen will likely never be as technically superb as Trusova but Trusova will likely never have the artistry and musicality of Chen. It’s valid for people to appreciate both.

Of course it’s valid to like both.

And I’m not critiquing the US at all. When you are on top, you do whatever you can to stretch out your lead. In a subjective scoring sport, you would be a fool to not market and blow up your skaters.

Sometimes, perception is reality.

US’s job is to come up with a way to get enough points to overcome the Russian high value jumps.

This is how sports moves forward: a reaction and adjustments to the actions of the leaders.

 

[moonvine]

I think from a sport standpoint quads are more notable though than artistry. I know people want the artistic mark bumped up to even the playing field but then you get to a competition without quadsters and suddenly “artistic skaters” with low content or mistakes end up winning over 7-triple programs from putatively inferior skaters. It’s never a good idea to make a systemic change based on the needs/circumstances of a few.

In a perfect world....in my opinion...there should be a way of rewarding TRULY artistic skaters (as opposed to “pretty skaters”). Not with low content or mistakes. I guess multiple triple triples are low content but I want to see more than jumping. There are quadsters and there are great artists and most people can do neither. I’m not talking about someone who comes out and skates prettily and only lands double toe loops and falls 5 times. But rewarding only women who can do 3as and quads at the expense of women who can do other things much better is not ok. Not everyone can jump a quad. Not everyone can be an artist. I don’t have the answers. But the way this sport is going is ruining it for me. If I want to watch just jumping I will go watch high jump in track.

 

[alexocfp]

In a perfect world....in my opinion...there should be a way of rewarding TRULY artistic skaters (as opposed to “pretty skaters”). Not with low content or mistakes. I guess multiple triple triples are low content but I want to see more than jumping. There are quadsters and there are great artists and most people can do neither. I’m not talking about someone who comes out and skates prettily and only lands double toe loops and falls 5 times. But rewarding only women who can do 3as and quads at the expense of women who can do other things much better is not ok. Not everyone can jump a quad. Not everyone can be an artist. I don’t have the answers. But the way this sport is going is ruining it for me. If I want to watch just jumping I will go watch high jump in track.

Unless I’m wrong and you can correct me, your wish can only occur with a change in the scoring system.

You can be the best step sequencer in the universe, but when you can amass 60 jump points in the first minute of your program, which is the way things are headed, then all the level 4 camel spins and steps in the world won’t make a shred of difference.

And the precedent at this moment: you hit your high value jumps and your PSC will be elevated as well.

Another hurdle is that “artistic skaters” are way more subjective than a jump. A jump is worth X fixed points. It’s less subjective in the totality.

3 people can see an artistic skater and come to 3 different conclusions scoring wise, and all 3 can be correct too.

 

[moonvine]

Unless I’m wrong and you can correct me, your wish can only occur with a change in the scoring system.

You can be the best step sequencer in the universe, but when you can amass 60 jump points in the first minute of your program, which is the way things are headed, then all the level 4 camel spins and steps in the world won’t make a shred of difference.

And the precedent at this moment: you hit your high value jumps and your PSC will be elevated as well.

Another hurdle is that “artistic skaters” are way more subjective than a jump. A jump is worth X fixed points. It’s less subjective in the totality.

3 people can see an artistic skater and come to 3 different conclusions scoring wise, and all 3 can be correct too.

Yes. They are constantly making changes to the scoring system. I hope one day they get it correct. Otherwise you may well find me someday avidly following high jump. Or not

 

[sworddance21]

I'm very sad for Mariah - but I was wowed by Amber this week. She has such heart when she skates. Mariah often does for me, too, but these programs don't seem to do her justice. I also wonder if Mariah struggled with not being able to have her full team around her. She seems like someone who is helped by having a network of close support. She may be a bit of a casualty of the unusual circumstances of this season.

 

[RatedPG]

I think things are what they are. The top always rise to the top with being driven and working hard. Eteri is a master mind at maximizing her athletes to reach their full potential through hard work. When her skaters are on the ice, there is more determination on the ice than their international peers. Figure skating is about increasing your technical content and improving your artistry. To me, the two leading complete senior ladies who are mastering and improving in these two areas are Anna S. (learned quad lutz and now quad flip and I’m now enjoying her programs more) and Rika K. (learned triple axel and now has learned the quad Salchow). Trusova has amazing technical content. But, due to lack of artistry, she now needs to land three quads or maybe even four to catch up to these two skaters. That is fair to me because she lacks in skating skills compared to these two. I’m happy the we have finally reached an age where ladies are forced to increase their technical content beyond triple triples. I mean how many times do I have to watch programs where the ladies all easily land double axels. Also, in the past, once a lady had mastered the triple lutz and learned a triple triple, during practices, they would just practice performing the same technical content over and over with no urgency to try something different unless they were pushed. Tonya Harding, Midori Ito and Mao Asada had this urgency because that is what was required at the time to defeat their opponents who had the same technical arsenal, but better artistry. There needs to be more urgency in improve the technical aspect of figure skating. We all saw that last year, Alena K, with a triple axel was able to defeat the quad girls with just mastering this one jump and of course having good artistry. In order to compete against Anna and Alexandra, Alena kept falling and falling while trying to learn that triple axel. In the GP of France, she kept falling and falling, but, wouldn’t stop trying until she could start landing the triple axel. She was so determined to learn that jump and when she finally learned it, she was able to have enough of a technical arsenal to let her be close enough to allow the PCS to overcome the two quad girls.

Bradie Tennell, Amber Glenn and Alysa Liu can start competing with the Russians and Japanese girls, if they learn the triple axel. That will be the key if they want to have a chance to break into the top three. The triple axel can get you a score of 240+. The triple axel has ready been landed by a dozen past ladies. If they want to medal, they need to focus on mastering this jump that has already been mastered by athletes back in the 90s. All three are getting closer and closer. It will be exciting and Amber Glenn’s triple axel landed during practice at Nationals was exquisite and shows this jump can be learned post-puberty.

 

[moonvine]

I think things are what they are. The top always rise to the top with being driven and working hard. Eteri is a master mind at maximizing her athletes to reach their full potential through hard work. When her skaters are on the ice, there is more determination on the ice than their international peers. Figure skating is about increasing your technical content and improving your artistry. To me, the two leading complete senior ladies who are mastering and improving in these two areas are Anna S. (learned quad lutz and now quad flip and I’m now enjoying her programs more) and Rika K. (learned triple axel and now has learned the quad Salchow). Trusova has amazing technical content. But, due to lack of artistry, she now needs to land three quads or maybe even four to catch up to these two skaters. That is fair to me because she lacks in skating skills compared to these two. I’m happy the we have finally reached an age where ladies are forced to increase their technical content beyond triple triples. I mean how many times do I have to watch programs where the ladies all easily land double axels. Also, in the past, once a lady had mastered the triple lutz and learned a triple triple, during practices, they would just practice performing the same technical content over and over with no urgency to try something different unless they were pushed. Tonya Harding, Mindoro Ito and Mao Asada had this urgency because that is what was required at the time to defeat their opponents who had the same technical arsenal, but better artistry. There needs to be more urgency in improve the technical aspect of figure skating. We all saw that last year, Alena K, with a triple axel was able to defeat the quad girls with just mastering this one jump and of course having good artistry. In order to compete against Anna and Alexandra, Alena kept falling and falling while trying to learn that triple axel. In the GP of France, she kept falling and falling, but, wouldn’t stop trying until she could start landing the triple axel. She was so determined to learn that jump and when she finally learned it, she was able to have enough of a technical arsenal to let her be close enough to allow the PCS to overcome the two quad girls.

Bradie Tennell, Amber Glenn and Alysa Liu can start competing with the Russians and Japanese girls, if they learn the triple axel. That will be the key if they want to have a chance to break into the top three. The triple axel is the key and can get you a score of 240+ With just the pat jump and good PCS. The triple axel has ready been landed by a dozen past ladies. If they want to medal, they need to focus on mastering this jump that has already been mastered by athletes back in the 90s. All three are getting closer and closer. It will be exciting and Amber Glenn’s triple axel landed during practice at Nationals was exquisite and shows this jump can be learned post-puberty.

I believe Mirai also learned it post puberty? And Alysa has had it for several years? (Though I guess she is having to re learn it?)

 

[[email protected]]

I wonder how much Alysa's defeats by Kamila and Daria play a role in the US deciding whom to put their support behind?

I really doubt that it has anything to do with it. As of today Daria and especially Kamila are in the different league to affect Alysa's placements.