2023-24 Russian Grand Prix - Stage 4 - Kazan

[yume]

Be my guest. Lol, while you can. I am sure moderation is on the way. But if it's going to be a ban, I am okay with it. It's been two years. I can't grit my teeth in silence.

I don't know if you realize that you are talking about someone who was a kid when this happened and still is a minor.
Why is it so hard to not just put your anger on the fed or even the coaches? I'm really wondering if someone hacked your account.

It's been two years and you waited the only time she "underperformed" to watch her and say how bad she is.

 

[lariko]

I don't know if you realize that you are talking about someone who was a kid when this happened and still is a minor.
Why is it so hard to not just put your anger on the fed or even the coaches? I'm really wondering if someone hacked your account.

Because I don't shift the blame. I place full responsibility on the coaching team that doesn't even try to hide the abuse of the teenagers they perpetrate. I don't think i was soft on the RusFed either. Was I? Do you wish me to get some stronger words? I can. They selected a minor to be a poster child for cheating and used her age in their boldfaced lies, ruining more yiung lives they were placed in charge of in the process. I hate cheaters, no matter what age they are. Here is one more for the grownups out there. I believe that everyone who watches and cheers for Valieva supports corruption, cheating and abuse. Be ashamed of yourselves.

 

[yume]

Because I don't shift the blame. I place full responsibility on the coaching team that doesn't even try to hide the abuse of the teenagers they perpetrate. I don't think i was soft on the RusFed either. Was I? Do you wish me to get some stronger words? I can. They selected a minor to be a poster child for cheating and used her age in their boldfaced lies. I hate cheaters, no matter what age they are. I believe that everyone who watches and cheers for Valieva supports corruption, cheating and abuse. I don't.

Ok.

 

[indujaa]

I don't know if you realize that you are talking about someone who was a kid when this happened and still is a minor.
Why is it so hard to not just put your anger on the fed or even the coaches? I'm really wondering if someone hacked your account.

It's been two years and you waited the only time she "underperformed" to watch her and say how bad she is.

The age excuse and the pity that kamila gets is what makes it all worse. Besides the team medal in dispute , the people who invalidated anna 's gold in individual, sasha' s quads and sakamotos bronze by saying they won it only because of witch hunt against kamila doesnot help the situation at all.
Yesterday also it was all about kamila would have won if it was not for the invalidated jump sequence. She is shadowing everyone's winning moment.

 

[lariko]

The age excuse and the pity that kamila gets is what makes it all worse. Besides the team medal in dispute , the people who invalidated anna 's gold in individual, sasha' s quads and sakamotos bronze by saying they won it only because of witch hunt against kamila doesnot help the situation at all.
Yesterday also it was all about kamila would have won if it was not for the invalidated jump sequence. She is shadowing everyone's winning moment.

Yeah, and when they awarded Trusova national woman's medal, basically the biggest medal they claim to be in the world of skating, they did it offhandedly, like it was Trusova who was somehow flawed and in the wrong! Not like the justice was restored as it should have been! Like...what kind of attitude is that when cheaters prosper and clean athletes are made feel guilty for their honestly-earned achievements?

 

[Skating91]

Some of what I read is hysterical.

Out of the top 4 women, I'd rather be Kamila than any of the others. She has a far brighter future than the top 3 based on her performances over the weekend.

Sadkova is the same age as when Kamila was putting together the best performances in history. Gorbacheva cannot maintain that body size for much longer and as soon as she grows she will likely lose her jumps.

Kamila's quad is closer to being restored than the top 3 despite being cursed with a woman's body at 17 while the others do not have this issue (Muraviova does not even have a quad), the short program was close to perfect. Even with a disaster skate by her standards, Kamila would have still easily got a bronze if she didn't stick that 2A on the end of her 3-3, or the judges didn't give her that second fall which was kind of questionable.

They are all trying to peak for the Russian championships and the Sparakiad in mid-February. This is like the hysteria over Sakamoto early last season. Look at how the top women in the world performed in that GP final last year. A bad skate did not mean career death for all of them.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

No you can't, she was great in the SP. She obviously got hurt in the warm up before free program. To compare her to "a latter-day Tsurskaya and Sotskova" is laughable.

Not to say she had online CAS hearing some day before the competition and Rus Fed actually wanted to postpone her participation to another stage, but she insisted to compete, so she was surely not mentally in the right space too for this competition... But I guess, there is no need to explain something to people, who will 'hate' no matter what - or better to say you can't 'insert logic' in emotionally charged people...

 

[Remilia]

It's not that surprising that things fell apart for Kami in the long. She is still only 17, the stress and pressure was just too much, not to mention her potentially having injured herself during warmup. She still had a great short, so it's ridiculous to write her off because of one bad performance.
Anyway, Mura did great, and I'm so happy to see her walking away with the gold here! Hopefully winning and getting a big score without the 3A will be a confidence booster for her.

 

[Skating91]

There's a video of her complete warm up online. Every jump in the warm up was clean. She looked great. The lutz has given her trouble in the past but it was all fine. Then tries her first 4T at the very end and takes a thump which shook her a little. I suppose she always uses the padding on her butt so probably shook her up.

Interestingly, she jumped that 3Lz+3T+2A sequence in the warm up, so it was definitely planned and not performed out of confusion by Kamila. Both in the warm up and program itself she jumped that sequence with no margin of error to the boards.

I think she needs to practice the program more, maybe it needs to be simplified a little as well. I think fatigue was one part of the problem (but she still made her jumps in the second half), lack of preparation, and maybe doesn't like the program. She doesn't really commit to it and sell it like the short program (which is absolutely epic). I think the biggest issue is lack of preparation with it. The jumps look great though in the warm up and landed them all cleanly apart from the quad across two programs.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I think we need to put things in the right perspective. Kamila still didn't skate worse than Loena in CoC, and from what we could see this week, Kamila is still the biggest 'star' of the figure skating, people like it or not. Now, lets wait for Muravieva and the others, and see theirs future. Same with Japanese and Korean junior girls as some of them look promising. North America is looking sad. European without Russian girls is looking sad. We could only pray that Kaori would be in her top shape this season and that's it. Or we can instead erase past 5 years of women figure skating as they didn't exist and (pretend to) be delighted with Nina Pinzarrone performance at TdF as an epitome of what women figure skating is.

 

[icewhite]

This constant disrespect for non-Russian athletes is so unnecessary and disgusting. I have often stated I don't support the ban. I can understand people are frustrated. But not a page in the Russian competition threads without comparison and explicit disregard of other skaters. Kamila did actually skate worse than Loena and so what? It happens. Nobody doubts the overall quality of female Russian skaters and that there is a huge amount of extremely high level skaters in Russia in general. However there have been skaters like Sumiyoshi and Yoshida performing "ultra c-s", nonperfect ones, yes, Amber Glenn fell apart after landing her 3A, but she actually landed a beautiful one, yet there is no respect for that at all, just as there isn't any for other skaters skating simpler content clean and beautiful. If you are not interested in non Russian athletes, fine, then just talk about the ones you are interested in. But no, there is a constant desire to drag them down to show the superiority of the Russians.
Honestly as much as I love some of the Russian athletes and wish them back on the international stage in World Championships etc., the more I read of such posts, the more I feel like maybe it's better when Russians are just staying in their own competitions. If their fans are not enjoying any other skaters anyway and only want to use international competitions as a means of "crushing" the competition and showing superiority, the reasons given for the ban are actually correct and there is no need to have competitions for everyone together.

However from some interviews I feel there is respect from some Russian athletes towards non Russian ones, so maybe they are better than their fans.

 

[indujaa]

When it comes to women and pair skating russians do it better. It is a fact. how is it disrepectful to say that they do it better when they actually do it better. If someone says russian men do it better than say for example ilia or shoma then it is definitely disrespectful, but they donot do they? What I find most disrespectful is when people say without the russians the ISU events have become more interesting. People donot complaint when japanese and american rule men's event. But somehow they find it unacceptable when russian women and pairs team win it. Yes they were overscored but its the judges fault not the skaters.

 

[Mariott]

Honestly as much as I love some of the Russian athletes and wish them back on the international stage in World Championships etc., the more I read of such posts, the more I feel like maybe it's better when Russians are just staying in their own competitions.

Actually what you are suggesting is the shittiest option as it doesn't give the best a chance to compete with the best. I don't think it's ethical to undervalue any athlete's efforts based on right or wrong flag, eligibility or ineligibility for international competition. Of course, if all the strongest (and not the strongest) competed on a single field, there would be no need for comparison, everything would be decided by grades. But even the most biased judging is better than deliberately excluding some of the strongest from the game. In this case, comparisons with foreign athletes are understandable. If sometimes it goes beyond objectivity, it is certainly bad and unethical. But it is all the fault of the established system of existence of two parallel sports universes, each of which is dependent on the other.
I think we will still come to a system of interclub competitions, when everyone will be able to demonstrate their skills without being tied to the flag. But this will not happen for a while yet.

 

[GS Forum Staff]

This thread is a competition thread. There should be no discussions about:

• skaters who didn't compete at this event
• ISU ban (this is not an international nor an ISU event)
• coaching abuse
• discussions about who is better than who, etc.

Please refrain from further derailing this thread and stay on topic.

 

[yume]

The age excuse and the pity that kamila gets is what makes it all worse. Besides the team medal in dispute , the people who invalidated anna 's gold in individual, sasha' s quads and sakamotos bronze by saying they won it only because of witch hunt against kamila doesnot help the situation at all.
Yesterday also it was all about kamila would have won if it was not for the invalidated jump sequence. She is shadowing everyone's winning moment.

And why not focus on positive rather than negative things? I've seen more posters happy about Mura winning with a big score without ultra-C, than posters sad or angry because Valieva finished 4. Most, if not everyone, called the judging fair. We were just surprised that the judging was fair actually. Like, they could have saved her if they wanted. Some can say that 70 pcs is too much but that's someone who is used to get 75+ pcs when clean. And she didn't have a disaster skate (it can be called disaster just because it's her). She didn't fall left and right on jumps, only on the quad, the others were landed. So they could have given her 75 pcs just to put her on podium. Also we were suprised by the stupid mistake on layout. We talked about it because it isn't something that happens everyday, not just because it was Valieva
No one said that the medalists didn't deserve to win their medals.
About the olympics medalists, i think even themselves prefer to just retain the positive outcome.

And i'm sorry if i think that 15yo is too young to be the mastermind behind cheating and responsible for how the situation was handled. Criticizing skating is ok. Skaters are there to be criticized, it's part of their job, no matter the age. But brutally criticize kids for things outside their power isn't fair imo. I'm sorry if i can't hate her but hate Russian fed and her coaches instead for what happened.

 

[Skating91]

I think we need to put things in the right perspective. Kamila still didn't skate worse than Loena in CoC, and from what we could see this week, Kamila is still the biggest 'star' of the figure skating, people like it or not. Now, lets wait for Muravieva and the others, and see theirs future. Same with Japanese and Korean junior girls as some of them look promising. North America is looking sad. European without Russian girls is looking sad. We could only pray that Kaori would be in her top shape this season and that's it. Or we can instead erase past 5 years of women figure skating as they didn't exist and (pretend to) be delighted with Nina Pinzarrone performance at TdF as an epitome of what women figure skating is.

The base value would have been something like 66 if the combo was included for full value (minus the 2A of course). So maybe a score of 140 when everything didn't go too well plus the 80 in the short medals in a lot of competitions if not gold. I see the stickied warning and don't want to refer to anything, but let's say there were hypothetically other events also involving the best skaters in the world happening at the same time last weekend, you could probably look at their scores and Kamila comes out from this event with some things to work on, but a lot to be positive about. Really the only skater she needed to compare herself against on the weekend is Muraviova because she was the only one in the top 4 eligible for senior competition under ISU rules which is what they have to remind her right now.

 

[lariko]

I am going to try one more time. In short, simple sentences.

The difference between Kamilla Valieva and every other skater in this competition (stage 4 of Russian GP) was that she failed a doping test.
Everyone else in this event passed their doping tests.
She should not compete.
Everyone else should.
Supporting Kamila Valieva amounts to expressing a blatant disrespect of all the athletes in this competition who train and compete clean.
It is supporting dishonesty in Russian figure skating.
There is no gray area.
It's binary.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I am going to try one more time. In short, simple sentences.

The difference between Kamilla Valieva and every other skater in this competition (stage 4 of Russian GP) was that she failed a doping test.
Everyone else in this event passed their doping tests.
She should not compete.
Everyone else should.
Supporting Kamila Valieva amounts to expressing a blatant disrespect of all the athletes in this competition who train and compete clean.
It is supporting dishonesty in Russian figure skating.
There is no gray area.
It's binary.

So what if she failed the doping test... I mean, the Chinese swimmer got a 6 months ban for the same substance they found in Kamila blood sample. Even she gets 2 years ban, she could still be eligible to compete at next Russian championship. Those are the rules and cases of Anti-doping agency. Tutkamysheva and other Mishin skaters failed some doping test for meldonium. USA and Spanish skaters failed their doping tests too... Justin Gatling was banned from competing and still won against Bolt after it... Now, because Kamila failed one (and only that one test, because we have a proof that the ones at Europeans and Olympics were right) it's the end of the world
E: If your problem is that Trusova didn't win the Russian nationals that year, that's fine. However, Shcherbakova beat her at Olympics and any other international competition in the past, and as I can remember she would never be a rightful winner of any bigger ISU competitions she was in

 

[Skating91]

I am going to try one more time. In short, simple sentences.

The difference between Kamilla Valieva and every other skater in this competition (stage 4 of Russian GP) was that she failed a doping test.
Everyone else in this event passed their doping tests.
She should not compete.
Everyone else should.
Supporting Kamila Valieva amounts to expressing a blatant disrespect of all the athletes in this competition who train and compete clean.
It is supporting dishonesty in Russian figure skating.
There is no gray area.
It's binary.

I just did a search I couldn't find anything about her failing a test in Kazan. I don't know where you are getting that information from. I'm going to go with the assumption there was no issue in Kazan.

 

[Arwen17]

They should have put her on the first plane home and decided the fate of Olympic team medal quietly, later on without beating their chests and using the system like clowns. The way they acted with her making her into a symbol of Russian Cheating and Lying Better Than Anyone Else, passionately defending the case that didn't hold water.

That's the root cause that put the entire Russian skating into dog house, not lab's timing. Which, by the way, was also their fault becaus not paying for rush TAT for an obvious Olympic team member was inexcusable.

Looking at timing and searching for conspiracy in it is a distraction from the root cause. From mounting consequences of it. Russian Skating they lost far, far more than that one Olympic gold medal by endlessly being in the wrong and doubling down on it. ISU is simply doing the right thing insisting on accountability and fairness. Russians are dodging it and trying to play a victim? Yikes. Oh, that poor teenage girl who was doped by her abusive coaches but is actually a saint...let's plaster her on the posters all over Russia as a nqtional heroine and keep calling her Olympic Champion. Lol.

Every official was removed from ISU and the relationships are damaged so much that unlike other sports that managed to strike a deal with other sports after IOC ruled that it was possible, FS where Russians should have been able to do the same now is closed to all their athletes.

By acting the way they acted, they lost more OG medals come next Olympics to save what they should have sacrificed for the long gain.

Having Valieva continue to skate all this time is a wrong signaling if they ever at all held their other athletes' interest at heart. Period. Short-sighted and arrogant, and so, so, so stupid it hurts. Worse, it hurt all the skaters and they force them to close ranks. This is as clear case of pride in a wrong thing crossing into hubris and destroying everything as there ever was. Should be in textbooks. With Valieva on the cover. How Hubris Can Ruin You. Or Don't Fight Lost Battles till You Lose Everything.

I mean, you would have thought Gorshkov's death made them do some soul searching, with how symbolic it was, but nope, not even that.

I hope I see reckoning in my lifetime for this, starting with Valieva and going up.

Finished getting caught up on all of the competitions and the dialogue on them.
You bring up some good points in this post. But I wonder if they doubled-down as hard as they did on kamila because of the war. Seems like she became a quick, easy way to drum up nationalism for the war, like that stupid military clip that got released of the people in black skating around a little russian figure skater trying to attack her and then suddenly she was being guarded by russian soldiers.

Maybe if quick easy nationalist propaganda hadn't been immediately desired, they would have acted with more forethought...... or they were just super pissed a gold medal was going to be snatched from them simply because a lab in sweden couldn't do their job properly and alert them of Kamila's results BEFORE she left for the Olympics.
But it is still a lot to sacrifice.... maybe they were sure they could prove Kamila was innocent or get her results at Olympics verified by a "low" punishment time window? AKA since the test was late, it was impossible replace Kamila, so they believed they could clear her name eventually and get the medals to stick.
They still might succeed at keeping the team medals. Will be interesting to see what the final results are when they are finally released.