ISU: 3Lz3F combo?

[charlotte14]

I have just seen this on twitter https://twitter.com/fsigstories/status/1011166753710399488?s=21

The guy jumped 3Lz and landed on the left leg, then immediately picked up to perform 3F.

Is is acceptable for ISU? As I have read the rule here it is still ok to call this a legit combo?
——-
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will evaluate the quality in their GOE.

 

[frida80]

I have just seen this on twitter https://twitter.com/fsigstories/status/1011166753710399488?s=21

The guy jumped 3Lz and landed on the left leg, then immediately picked up to perform 3F.

Is is acceptable for ISU? As I have read the rule here it is still ok to call this a legit combo?
——-
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will evaluate the quality in their GOE.

.

Nope. IF you don’t land on your opposite foot, it’s not a Lutz.

 

[charlotte14]

.

Nope. IF you don’t land on your opposite foot, it’s not a Lutz.

????????? Who said that????

 

[andromache]

????????? Who said that????

It's the mechanics of the jump.

That said, this is cool, and it'd be cool to see people do weird things like this in competition with some type of reward.

 

[atsumiri]

Technical Panel
Handbook 2017/2018

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...-technical-panel-handbook-single-skating/file
page 21

Landing on another foot
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will
evaluate the quality in their GOE.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Technical Panel
Handbook 2017/2018

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...-technical-panel-handbook-single-skating/file
page 21

Landing on another foot
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will
evaluate the quality in their GOE.

Thank you. This explains why 1/2 loops work as well.


And can I just say... if this guy can bloody land a 3Z on his opposite foot, I am sure some skaters could land a double loop on their non-traditional foot and then go into a 3S or 3F. I really want to see a "double 1/2 loop" jump as I want to call it. I really want to see a skater at least try it.

 

[charlotte14]

Technical Panel
Handbook 2017/2018

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...-technical-panel-handbook-single-skating/file
page 21

Landing on another foot
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will
evaluate the quality in their GOE.

Exactly what I quoted above. This is why I am asking is this type of “combo” acceptable under the current rules?

 

[Shayuki]

No, that's not a Lutz.

3Lutz-3Lutz should theoretically be possible though, if you rotate the second Lutz in the opposite direction. I don't see what's technically incorrect about doing that.

Exactly what I quoted above. This is why I am asking is this type of “combo” acceptable under the current rules?

It's not about the foot. A Lutz is back outside to back outside. That's back inside - It's not a Lutz.

Then again a flutz is not a Lutz either.

 

[macy]

Technical Panel
Handbook 2017/2018

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-s...e-skating/file
page 21

Landing on another foot
In combinations/sequences all jumps except the last one may be landed on either foot. The call of the jump does not depend on the landing foot and the Judges will
evaluate the quality in their GOE.

so since the lutz is not the last jump, it can be landed on the other foot? i would think it would still be called a lutz since the defining feature of that jump is the outside edge takeoff, not the landing, and that isn't changed here. both the lutz and the flip are taken off correctly.

 

[atsumiri]

No, that's not a Lutz.
3Lutz-3Lutz should theoretically be possible though, if you rotate the second Lutz in the opposite direction. I don't see what's technically incorrect about doing that.
It's not about the foot. A Lutz is back outside to back outside. That's back inside - It's not a Lutz.
Then again a flutz is not a Lutz either.

he did 3Lz+3F not 3Lz+3Lz

another video https://www.instagram.com/p/BkcDuLJD9fs/

 

[macy]

No, that's not a Lutz.

3Lutz-3Lutz should theoretically be possible though, if you rotate the second Lutz in the opposite direction. I don't see what's technically incorrect about doing that.



It's not about the foot. A Lutz is back outside to back outside. That's back inside - It's not a Lutz.

Then again a flutz is not a Lutz either.

from what i'm reading the OP is correct, the second jump is meant to be a flip, not a lutz, so it is executed correctly. 3Lz+3F.

 

[chopinskate]

What they're saying is that the lutz is to be landed on a back-outside edge -- making this not a lutz, because its landed on a BIE.

I'm interested in knowing what it's called: A one foot lutz?

 

[cohen-esque]

What they're saying is that the lutz is to be landed on a back-outside edge -- making this not a lutz, because its landed on a BIE.

I'm interested in knowing what it's called: A one foot lutz?

Yes, it’s called a one-foot Lutz, and most such jumps are called one foot variants if they normally land on an opposite foot BOE (one-foot Axel or one-foot flip, for example).

Literally the next line down in the handbook it says:

The call will not change if a jump is landed on the other edge.

This is a perfectly valid combination.

 

[dante]

I wish the ISU judging rules encouraged skaters to do more of such a non-orthodox elements. It would make programs more diverse and more interesting.

Literally the next line down in the habdpook it says:

The call will not change if a jump is landed on the other edge.

"...However Judges will reflect this in their GOE."

https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...-technical-panel-handbook-single-skating/file
page 21

You can add "#page=21" to make links to PDF like that: https://isu.org/inside-single-pair-...al-panel-handbook-single-skating/file#page=21
(works in Chrome and Firefox)

 

[gkelly]

Very cool, and very legal for the reasons quoted above.

The definition of a jump is on the takeoff edge, whether or not it has a toepick assist, and whether the jump rotation is in the same direction or opposite to the curve of the takeoff edge.

All rotational jumps typically land on the back outside edge traveling in the direction of rotation (i.e., right back outside for counterclockwise jumps).

However, often jumps land facing forward instead of backward if significantly underrotated. They may land on the back inside edge of the usual landing foot if slightly underrotated (that's what is meant by "The call will not change if a jump is landed on the other edge"). They might land on the "wrong" foot by mistake, or on both feet. They may land with no running edge at all followed by the skater falling down. All of these are errors on the landing and result in GOE reduction, but they don't change the definition of the jump just because the landing was not a clean back outside edge.

Another option is to land on the opposite foot on a back inside running edge on purpose.

The ISU has written an explicit exception to allow the first jump in a combination (or second jump in a three-jump combination) to land on the back inside edge of the other foot, thus allowing salchow or flip as the second jump of the combination, as quoted by charlotte14 and atsumiri above.

This example was very nicely done.

 

[chopinskate]

Yes, it’s called a one-foot Lutz, and all such jumps are called one foot variants if they normally land on an opposite foot BOE.

Literally the next line down in the habdpook it says:

This is a perfectly valid combination.

Great, didn't know if the BOE was a requirement for defining a jump -- so it isn't. I'd only ever heard of them being defined by take-offs, so it makes more sense.

But it looks harder than a lutz, and yet it receives the same BV. And they might lose GOE anyway, since it's harder to land.

I wonder if anyone would do this for a BV advantage? The ones with three quads could benefit.

The ISU has written an explicit exception to allow the first jump in a combination (or second jump in a three-jump combination) to land on the back inside edge of the other foot, thus allowing salchow or flip as the second jump of the combination, as quoted by charlotte14 and atsumiri above.

This example was very nicely done.

So why don't more people do it?

 

[macy]

Great, didn't know if the BOE was a requirement for defining a jump -- so it isn't. I'd only ever heard of them being defined by take-offs, so it makes more sense.

But it looks harder than a lutz, and yet it receives the same BV. And they might lose GOE anyway, since it's harder to land.

I wonder if anyone would do this for a BV advantage? The ones with three quads could benefit.



So why don't more people do it?

IMO from a former competitive skater, i think a lot of these combos are much harder to execute (also without a half loop in between to gain speed/momentum) because jumps like flips, salchows, and lutzes are unconventional second jumps in a combo. nobody ever trains them right out of the first jump without a half loop, you only see loops and toes tacked right on the end. i think it would be very cool to see these more often in competition since they are legal and i think should be worth a little more since they are so uncommon and can be more difficult.

 

[moriel]

may be an unpopular opinion, but i think this combo looks somewhat awkward

 

[gkelly]

One-foot axel into triple salchow was never a very common combination, but I can name about 5 skaters who used to do it in the 1980s and 90s.

I've seen a couple of juvenile/intermediate attempt 2S+2S combinations with the first salchow landed on the takeoff foot (one-foot double salchow).

And then there was this, in a year when 2F was a required jump in the SP jump combination. Too bad it wasn't cleaner.

 

[chopinskate]

I like that they're popping up again after cohen-esque brought them up here.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...assed-by-ISU&p=2112793&viewfull=1#post2112793