ISU: 3Lz3F combo?

[cohen-esque]

And then there was this, in a year when 2F was a required jump in the SP jump combination. Too bad it wasn't cleaner.

Thank you! I’ve been looking for this video forever.

I like that they're popping up again after cohen-esque brought them up here.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...assed-by-ISU&p=2112793&viewfull=1#post2112793

And the above is the “some guy under 6.0” I was referring to.

 

[chopinskate]

Thank you! I’ve been looking for this video forever.



And the above is the “some guy under 6.0” I was referring to.

You spent this long to look up some guy's jump? wow lol I would have given up a while back.

 

[cohen-esque]

You spent this long to look up some guy's jump? wow lol I would have given up a while back.

Well, I mean, I gave up, and forgot about it, and then saw this and remembered it and was like “oh! There it is!”

 

[Mathman]

may be an unpopular opinion, but i think this combo looks somewhat awkward

But not nearly as awkward as any sequence with a half-loop in between.

At least I used to think that, when the half-loop sequence first came into vogue. It just looked like the skater made a mistake, almost fell, and then somehow managed to get off another jump. Over the years, I got used to it. Sort of. The half-loop has to be be really forceful, precise and deliberate, IMHO.

I think I could get used to these one-foot landings if more people did them.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Jill Trenary and Nicole Bobek could do a 1A(left-foot landing)-3S combination that looked cool but would probably be a waste to do now because you'd lose one combination pass by attempting it. I wish skating was more like gymnastics, in which athletes can submit a new skill and obtain a difficulty score from the international federation. The combo in the video should at least receive the full BV of a 3F and 3Lz IMO.

 

[cohen-esque]

may be an unpopular opinion, but i think this combo looks somewhat awkward

It does to me, too, but it’s impressive regardless. If this was a regularly trained combination, we might see a smoother takeoff for the +3F, but inside edge combos usually have a noticeable...delay into the last jump that I think tends to look aesthetically awkward and effortful.

(Especially +Flip combos, IMO: I’ve never seen a +1Lo+2/3F that I liked. Sometimes you get nice +Salchow combination.)

But not nearly as awkward as any sequence with a half-loop in between.

At least I used to think that, when the half-loop sequence first came into vogue. It just looked like the skater made a mistake, almost fell, and then somehow managed to get off another jump. Over the years, I got used to it. Sort of. The half-loop has to be be really forceful, precise and deliberate, IMHO.

I think I could get used to these one-foot landings if more people did them.

I like Ashley Wagner’s half-loop. Not sure if “forceful” is the right word, but i think she certainly does it very deliberately and keeps the rhythm going better than most.

The combo in the video should at least receive the full BV of a 3F and 3Lz IMO.

Well it would get the full 3Lz+3F value; it’s a real combination, not a sequence. I don’t think it’s enough, though, to be worth the difficulty.

I wish skating was more like gymnastics, in which athletes can submit a new skill and obtain a difficulty score from the international federation.

Wouldn’t that be nice? I guess it’s an issue because of technical calls: downgrades, specifically, because with the new SOV all the +REP and “<“ and “e” have an actual percentage reduction in BV that would make something like this feasible.

 

[Step Sequence4]

Out of curiosity, would you be able to put a Lutz on the end of something by jumping a half loop to land on the back outside edge?

 

[MoonlightSkater]

Out of curiosity, would you be able to put a Lutz on the end of something by jumping a half loop to land on the back outside edge?

The problem with this would be the counter-rotational nature of the jump.

If you are jumping counter-clockwise (normal) direction, your entry edge into a Lutz will curve this way: ........ )

Your landing edge, whether you land it on a back outside or back inside one-foot edge will curve this way: .... (

As long as you are rotating counter-clockwise, your loop takeoff and landing edge, regardless of foot, will curve this way: (

As such, you'd have to either change edge or rotate in the opposite direction (clockwise) to do another Lutz.
I believe changing edge breaks the combination?

 

[chopinskate]

Well it would get the full 3Lz+3F value; it’s a real combination, not a sequence. I don’t think it’s enough, though, to be worth the difficulty.

True, but:

4Lz
4S
4T
3A
=======
4T-2T
one foot 3Lz-3F
3A-1Lo-3S

A gain of 1.1 BV, over a 3Lz-3T, or a 3A-3T.

 

[StitchMonkey]

True, but:



A gain of 1.1 BV, over a 3Lz-3T, or a 3A-3T.

But they could do a 4T+3T rather than a double. That to me is the true value here... an extra triple triple.

 

[chopinskate]

But they could do a 4T+3T rather than a double. That to me is the true value here... an extra triple triple.

Oh, yes! That, too! So a gain of 4.00 BV!

ETA: No, I haven't, in fact, forgotten that learning a new quad is still more valuable than this. Pity these skills are undervalued...

 

[cohen-esque]

As such, you'd have to either change edge or rotate in the opposite direction (clockwise) to do another Lutz.
I believe changing edge breaks the combination?

Yeah, you’d have to do a Lutz in your off direction from the landing edge on the first.

Blatantly changing edge would probably just invalidate the second jump. Other (probably not really the best case?) scenario, it would count as a 3Lz and then a 3Lz+REP. It’s not a combination (although, the ISU technical handbook technically says you only have to be on the same landing foot. But I think the “same edge” part is just so obviously implied they didn’t mention it.). And it’s not legal to do a Lutz+Lutz jump sequence, and even back when it was they had to be connected by clearly-in-the-air-and-off-the-ice hops, or non-listed jumps, not simply by a change of edge.

 

[Miller]

Coming to you soon from Russian Ladies? Especially given the loss of BV of 3Lo's?

Seriously though, what would actually be harder 3Lz-3Lo + solo 3F, or 3Lz-3F and solo 3Lo. I guess you've always got to do all 3 to do all your triples, but it's an interesting question. Another way of doing 2 Lutzs and 2 Flips in your routine, plus with the much bigger GOEs on offer any way of doing 2 Lutzs and Flips has to be investigated e.g. could you do a 2A-3F combo so you get the 3F GOE as part of that jumping pass, whereas for a 3Lz-3F you only get that of the Lutz i.e. you've kind of wasted the GOE part even though you've got the BV.

Re Artur Dmitriev, is this a harbinger of things to come? I've long thought the men would be trying to cram all their 8 jumping pass jumps into 7 passes and we might see things like -3Lo combos and -1Lo-3S/3F ones much more e.g. -2T and solo 3Lo replaced by -3Lo one, and solo 3F/3S and -2T-2Lo replaced by -1Lo-3S/3F. Could what Artur's doing be an example of something like this and trying to get all his 8 jumping pass jumps into 7?

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Well it would certainly solve the annoyance of a junior ladies' 3Lo solo in the short... no 3Lz-3Lo? just do 3Lz-3F!

 

[macy]

I like Ashley Wagner’s half-loop. Not sure if “forceful” is the right word, but i think she certainly does it very deliberately and keeps the rhythm going better than most.

yes!!! she keeps the rhythm so nicely without a long awkward pause in the middle, it looks easy and light when she does it. my favorite half loop-er.

 

[Mathman]

^ Not that there's anything wrong with this one (triple Axel/half loop/triple Salchow)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQs--Rgl4k&t=3m39s

 

[solani]

I think this is a great rule change. We'll see some cool combos in the future. Even if Dmitriev's combo doesn't look super smooth to me (yet). That's only due to the fact that he seems to be very concentrated, very controlled and that's natural because this combo is surely new to him as well.

 

[Henni147]

To sum it up: from now on Toeloop, Salchow, Loop and Flip are all possible as a second or third jump in a combination. The halfloop is not necessary before a Salchow or Flip anymore, because jumps with LBI-landing are permitted in combos (RBI in case of clockwise rotation).

Still the same: The only way to jump a Lutz at the end of a combination is the valid change of rotation direction (or invalid change of edge from inside to outside). Axel as second jump is a sequence, not a combination (because of the half-turn on the ground in between) and doesn't receive full BV.

Did I get that right?


Well, this would not only mean exciting new combos, but also a nice alternative to increase the BV of a program. Combos like this could become attractive:
X+3S or X+2F (instead of X+2T) +3.0 or 0.5 BV
X+3F (instead of X+3T) +1.1 BV
X+2F+2Lo (instead of X+2T+2Lo) +0.5 BV
X+2Lo+3S (instead of X+1Lo+3S) + 1.1 BV

+1.1 equals a 10% bonus for a quad. Not bad :agree:

#Sidenote: I wouldn't mind some freaky combos either: X+3S+3Lo or X+3F+3T

 

[gkelly]

To sum it up: from now on Toeloop, Salchow, Loop and Flip are all possible as a second or third jump in a combination. The halfloop is not necessary before a Salchow or Flip anymore, because jumps with LBI-landing are permitted in combos (RBI in case of clockwise rotation).

Yes. The language allowing jumps to land on the back inside edge of the other foot and be called based on the takeoff is not new -- it's been in the tech panel handbook for several years already, and before that I don't think there was any explicit rule about it one way or the other.

What I believe is new is the language stating that this sort of landing is valid specifically for the first jump of a combination.

(If a skater lands on the opposite foot for a solo jump at the end of a combination, the tech panel should still call it as the intended jump, but it would be considered an error, for judges to reflect in GOE.)

Still the same: The only way to jump a Lutz at the end of a combination is the valid change of rotation direction (or invalid change of edge from inside to outside).

Yes.

Axel as second jump is a sequence, not a combination (because of the half-turn on the ground in between) and doesn't receive full BV.

The whole sequence (both jumps) receives 80% base value, not just the axel.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Whoaaa.... forget about quad axels, quad-quads, etc. etc. etc. .... this is one of the coolest jumping passes ever!

Also, interesting to see that the rules are totally fine with it (I mean, I thought it was just the half-loop that you could land on another foot). Truly innovative and creative (and difficult too)!

Would love for Artur to bust out this combination next season! (Although if he also happens to do a quad axel, I guess that would be kinda cool too. )