Maxim Belyavsky: 5T (with harness)

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Wow that's amazing! Going to get my kudos in there to Maxim for attempting this, before the inevitable influx of debbie downers with the but-it's-assisted/not-fully-rotated comments. The point is to push the potential of the 5T becoming a reality - and obviously it needs to be done in a safe, controlled manner which is what's being done here. I don't even really care about PR/UR here (seems like any time a skater is trying something difficult and new, the immediate reaction of some people is to be skeptical of the attempt and repeatedly slow it down so they can tear the skater apart for technique/rotation) -- this takes guts, and I give this kid all the credit for trying it.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am a proponent of always keep pushing, never be done learning.

So i think this is at least a sign that quints should be given a value on the scale of value. Though a little bit of study on the risks and safety would be wise as well.

I really thought we would see a Quad-Quad or a 3A-4T before a quint.

 

[liv]

I am surprised that I"m not surprised.

I figured that it would be someone very young and who can rotate very quickly...and I also thought it might happen before a 4A just because it seems that many quick spinning jumpers can do quads better than 3 axels.

Pretty cool, even in harness.

 

[Arbitrary]

'02 OGM Alexi Yagudin dismissed the video stating the assisted in-practice jump even fully standard is only a kind of curiosity.

- We did assisted quad axels billions of years ago.

 

[oatmella]

Wondering if Maxim is already doing quads ... hope he doesn't get injured while pushing the technical limits of the sport.

 

[gravy]

And Tarasova said it's not a big deal to do 100T assisted.
I'm in doubt she's serious.

'02 OGM Alexi Yagudin dismissed the video stating the assisted in-practice jump even fully standard is only a kind of curiosity.

- We did assisted quad axels billions of years ago.

Hyperbole on Tarasova's end but landing a difficult jump on a harness, like Yagudin said, is meaningless. With the right assist, even Satoko would be able to do a clean 3A.

I always find these videos pretty pointless.

 

[norwegianfairytale]

I am a proponent of always keep pushing, never be done learning.

So i think this is at least a sign that quints should be given a value on the scale of value. Though a little bit of study on the risks and safety would be wise as well.

I really thought we would see a Quad-Quad or a 3A-4T before a quint.

Shoma Uno did attempt a 3A-4T in WTT, but the landing wasn´t clean.

 

[hikikomori]

He's training 4T and 4S and has already landed quad sal at the competitions as a solo jump during the jumping tests

 

[Rina RUS]

I found the text. Yagudin even said: "quint axels", not "quad":
"As for jumps with harness, we jumped quint axels billion years ago",
but he added:
"I think a quint will be jumped in competitions 15 years later or so".

He thinks it will happen.

 

[gkelly]

I am a proponent of always keep pushing, never be done learning.

So i think this is at least a sign that quints should be given a value on the scale of value. Though a little bit of study on the risks and safety would be wise as well.

Yes, both would make sense. Although the study of risks and safety would likely be long-term one. And should already have been in place focusing on quads and other difficult jumps.

I really thought we would see a Quad-Quad or a 3A-4T before a quint.

We have, in practice in and out of harness.

We haven't seen a quint in competition yet, and there's no reason to believe we will soon. Not before it has a point value, surely.

 

[Mathman]

The question of base value for a quint is intriguing even if it is only academic for now. It used to be that every time you added a revolution, that increased the base value about three-fold. I don't know if the ISU deliberately set about with this rule of thumb in mind, or if it just happened to turn out that way.

But in the last Scale of Values revision, they lowered the relative value of quads. Now the ratios are

1T -> 2T, multiply by 3.25
2T->3T, multiply by 3.23

But 3T->.4T, multiply by only 2.26.

I think this was on purpose, so that a skater could not just go out there, toss down 4 quads and earn so much in base value that no one else had a chance, even if the quadster did nothing else in his program.

A quint would pose the same dilemma. If a 5T were worth three times the value of a 4T, that would be 28.50 + GOE for that one element. This would dominate and "unbalance" the program.

Even if it were only twice as much, that's still 19 points for one jump. Youngsters would certainly have an incentive for training it, but the ISU would have to consider just what it wants to accomplish with the Scale of Values.

 

[nussnacker]

The question of base value for a quint is intriguing even if it is only academic for now. It used to be that every time you added a revolution, that increased the base value about three-fold. I don't know if the ISU deliberately set about with this rule of thumb in mind, or if it just happened to turn out that way.

But in the last Scale of Values revision, they lowered the relative value of quads. Now the ratios are

1T -> 2T, multiply by 3.25
2T->3T, multiply by 3.23

But 3T->.4T, multiply by only 2.26.

I think this was on purpose, so that a skater could not just go out there, toss down 4 quads and earn so much in base value that no one else had a chance, even if the quadster did nothing else in his program.

A quint would pose the same dilemma. If a 5T were worth three times the value of a 4T, that would be 28.50 + GOE for that one element. This would dominate and "unbalance" the program.

Even if it were only twice as much, that's still 19 points for one jump. Youngsters would certainly have an incentive for training it, but the ISU would have to consider just what it wants to accomplish with the Scale of Values.

It will be unbalanced, I’m sure. And I think they will give it a substantial value, maybe not 28, but around that number. Otherwise there’s no incentive to learn that jump at all and skaters will stick to quads.

It’s like with current system, you are better off by jumping a clean triple rather than falling from a quad, falling is penalized harsher than before, but it’s inevitable when new harder jump is introduced.
And it’s something Mishin complained about, that there would be less incentive to learn quads if you’re penalized harsher for falling. I disagree, at this point, quads are so common, that no male (or even female) skater can aim for the top without one.
But for quints, if they will happen one day, I believe the points will rack up, so that even with the fall you’ll get around the amount of a clean quad.

 

[gkelly]

This is why I want to see a separate event for jumps, apart from the "well-balanced" freeskate.

Maybe it would be a separate phase of the same competition, and there could be some way to factor the results of different phases into overall results, without just adding up points.

Or maybe it would be a completely separate medal.

There clearly is interest in pushing the limits of ice jumping. There should be a way to reward cutting-edge achievement in that area.

But allowing jump content to carry such a disproportionate weight in the results of singles figure skating as a whole is already straying from the fundamentals of what makes figure skating figure skating. Introducing elements valued so high that just one jump might be worth more than all non-jump elements the skater performs (and then allowing several of them) would tip the balance even further.

Especially because skaters who are able to achieve these feats will be a small proportion of the athletes who have the ability to excel elsewhere, and even those who can achieve them will likely not be able to sustain them consistently through long careers.

But executing quints and similar skills in a competition format that allows up to a minute or more of setup and recovery time will likely be less punishing on the body than trying to incorporate them into complex "well-balanced" programs.

 

[oatmella]

I’m not sure the ISU would want to give a lot of incentive for quints with high BV. With *just* quads and triples, most of the top men were injured at least part of this past season: Shoma and his multiple ankle sprains, Yuzu, Vincent, Misha, Junhwan, and others - I’m concerned about even more severe injury regarding quints.

Just as quads once seemed impossible, quints are seemingly becoming a reality. Interesting that after last year’s Worlds, Nathan said in an interview that he didn’t think that quints would be possible with current jump technique and boots. But here we are ...

 

[macy]

ugh this is scary...hard not to think about the injuries that are possible from falls...

i really think quads should be the limit. this is cool that he can do this on the fishing harness but this is too far. we are going to start seeing even shorter careers than we already do and some bad career ending injuries. not worth it.

 

[DanseMacabre]

Hyperbole on Tarasova's end but landing a difficult jump on a harness, like Yagudin said, is meaningless. With the right assist, even Satoko would be able to do a clean 3A.

I always find these videos pretty pointless.

Agreed. I don't think people understand just how much of an assist the harness can give a skater even if it doesn't look like much.

 

[Happy Skates]

And Tarasova said it's not a big deal to do 100T assisted.
I'm in doubt she's serious.

well, she's not completely wrong, your coach could just hold you up in the harness forever, my coaches used to do that type of thing with me. This one looked like it had some assistance, but not completely carrying him though.

 

[Mathman]

But for quints, if they will happen one day, I believe the points will rack up, so that even with the fall you’ll get around the amount of a clean quad.

If that's the goal, then the base value of a quint toe should be 21.

That way, -5 GOE would lower it to 10.5, and then the 1 point fall deduction would make it 9.5 -- the value of a quad toe. :yes:

 

[xeyra]

If that's the goal, then the base value of a quint toe should be 21.

That way, -5 GOE would lower it to 10.5, and then the 1 point fall deduction would make it 9.5 -- the value of a quad toe. :yes:

However, as we can see with the 4A value, the relative difficulty of a jump doesn't necessarily get rewarded in points, given its lowered value this season, especially in comparison to a 3A. So it's unlikely there'll be a proportional reward for a 5T.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Just as quads once seemed impossible, quints are seemingly becoming a reality. Interesting that after last year’s Worlds, Nathan said in an interview that he didn’t think that quints would be possible with current jump technique and boots. But here we are ...

We still haven't seen a fully rotated quint without a harness, so Nathan may be right. From the video, it looks possible but I think it will be a long time before we will see it attempted in a competitive program.