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- Jan 25, 2013
Here's Uno doing a clean one in the 2017 Worlds practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6gmTT8rDUk
Maxim Belyavsky: 5T (with harness)
- Thread starter lappo
- Start date
Here's Uno doing a clean one in the 2017 Worlds practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6gmTT8rDUk
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
:yes:. For a quad, you need to rotate four times in eight or nine tenths of a second. If the assist gives you even one-fifth of a second in extra air time, there's your quint.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Pushing the limits of ice jumping:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz5KnJ_QH_0
I think that there are two main problems with a separate jumping event. Basically,the same two reasons why the figures competition was eliminated from figure skating.
First, is there is really an audience for it? Are a lot of fans (live and TV) interested in seeing someone jump up in the air on skates and twirl around four of five times?
Second, just like figures, the biggest jumpers would be so far ahead after the jump segment that there would be no reason to hold the free skating part at all (if the results were combined somehow to produce an overall winner).
Still ... Yeah, I think a jump contest modeled after barrel jumping would be cool. The format would go like this. The ISU would specify a list of increasingly difficult jumps. All the competitors would line up and go one-by-one. If you landed your double Axel then you get to go on to the next round, the triple loop. If you fall, you are out. Eventually you get down to the last few skaters standing. Next up: quad Salchow.
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So many of the new snowboarding events are all about series of tricks! There’s an audience for a series of tricks with snowboards having an ice based jump event seems like something very similar. You wouldn’t just go out and do one quad toe or whatever But have 4 or 5 or 6 chances to do as many quads!
Pushing the limits of ice jumping:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz5KnJ_QH_0
I think that there are two main problems with a separate jumping event. Basically,the same two reasons why the figures competition was eliminated from figure skating.
First, is there is really an audience for it? Are a lot of fans (live and TV) interested in seeing someone jump up in the air on skates and twirl around four of five times?
Second, just like figures, the biggest jumpers would be so far ahead after the jump segment that there would be no reason to hold the free skating part at all (if the results were combined somehow to produce an overall winner).
Still ... Yeah, I think a jump contest modeled after barrel jumping would be cool. The format would go like this. The ISU would specify a list of increasingly difficult jumps. All the competitors would line up and go one-by-one. If you landed your double Axel then you get to go on to the next round, the triple loop. If you fall, you are out. Eventually you get down to the last few skaters standing. Next up: quad Salchow.
So many of the new snowboarding events are all about series of tricks! There’s an audience for a series of tricks with snowboards having an ice based jump event seems like something very similar. You wouldn’t just go out and do one quad toe or whatever But have 4 or 5 or 6 chances to do as many quads!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
You make a very sound point. Quads have become so common at the top level that there is no reason any more to give extra incentive to train them. For for the quint, though, the iSU needs to pour on the coal in terms of encouraging skaters to make the attempt, even risking falls.
I do like the goal of setting the base values so that a fall on a jump (fully rotated and satisfactory in other respects) will earn about the same as an average (0 GOE) jump of one fewer revolution. At least this model has the advantage that there is some easily explainable rationale for the way that base values are assigned.
The formula would then be
Base value for harder jump = 2 x (Base Value for easier jump) + 2.
IF you try this to set the base value for quads, starting with the current base values for triples, the computed vales for quads are consistently a point or two more than the actual values set by the ISU. (That is, a well done triple is better than a fall on a quad.)
For quints, based on the current values for quads, it whould go like this.
4A should be 18. (Actual 12.50)
5T should be 21.
5S should be 21.4.
5Lo should be 23.
5F should be 24.
5Lz should be 25. :yes:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
They have this in the NBA (basketball). How many three-pointers can you make from different spots on the court in 60 seconds?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqvxT3M1Nw
Very entertaining. Still, I think that most people would rather watch an actual basketball game, where these skills are put to the service of a complete game plan.
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Would the ISU want to encourage quints though. While quads are not rare among the top men, those who can do them consistently (mostly without falls or UR) are not that common.
I think only a very specific body type would be capable of quints - narrow hips and shoulders, very slim, and not very tall.
I think only a very specific body type would be capable of quints - narrow hips and shoulders, very slim, and not very tall.
They have this in the NBA (basketball). How many three-pointers can you make from different spots on the court in 60 seconds?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqvxT3M1Nw
Well you have two issues! Audience wants and development of the sport among athletes! You have many figure skaters now and throughout history with a strident hatred of artistry. Samarin, min, li, mroz, slutskaya, and more! So what if they had an outlet? Or are those arguments about artistry Vs jumps really integral? Stojko and bonaly too. So you could have both
Not necessarily. It depends how you structure it.
One possibility: Calculate results for each competition phase then drop the actual scores and calculate combined results through factored placements. (Downside: place switching during the later phase(s) will once again become possible.)
Another possibility: Factor the total scores of the earlier competition phase(s) by a lower multiplier than the final phase. That will diminish the size of the leads the winner of an earlier phase can rack up and make the final phase count for more.
Or: Don't carry over the scores from the earlier phase(s) at all, but use the results to seed the starting order from the final phase.
(Or, of course, just make it a separate event entirely with its own medal and no impact on the results of the well-balanced event.)
The format would go like this. The ISU would specify a list of increasingly difficult jumps. All the competitors would line up and go one-by-one. If you landed your double Axel then you get to go on to the next round, the triple loop. If you fall, you are out. Eventually you get down to the last few skaters standing. Next up: quad Salchow.
That's one possible approach, and very similar to the Top Jump competition that was tried in the late 1990s and also to the Aerial Challenge event in Colorado the last few years.
Also possible. Each skater could have a set amount of time to try as many jumps as they can during that time limit and get credit for all jumps landed, or for the top scoring 3 or 4 or whatever.
Or make it a strategic and tactical battle in which 2-6 skaters are on the ice at the same time and they each get credit for as many jumps as they can land successfully during that time, but they also have the possibility of blocking the other skaters' ability to get jumps accomplished.
What I had been thinking of was something more like a jumps-only technical program without music, to be scored on base values and GOEs (with preceding moves or exit variations considered as part of the GOE).
Each skater would have a some specified categories of jump elements to accomplish within a specified amount of time on the ice. Probably 2-3 minutes, depending on the elements and whether or they're allowed to make a second attempt at an element they missed earlier or just want to try for higher GOE.
The requirements might be
*A solo edge jump
*A solo toe jump
*A two-jump combination
No lower or upper limits on the number of revolutions.
Other possible permissible elements could be
*a three-jump combination,
*a jump combination with unlimited number of jumps (that stops counting as soon as the skater has two feet on the ice aside from toepick takeoffs, or weight on any body part other than the blades),
*a jump sequence with clear definitions of what counts as a sequence and when it stops counting if the jumps are unlimited
If there is time for at least four elements with no second chances, there could be a requirement for at least five or six different takeoffs.
Etc. Choose your favorite requirements, and build in rewards for kinds of jump difficulty that are not currently rewarded under the current rules and Scale of Values. That would include adding quintuple jumps, but other kinds of jump difficulty as well.
There would be more options than under the current short program rules.
Skaters could choose whichever jump skills fill the slots to best showcase their own most valuable jumping skills.
For those who can do really high-value jump content with long setups and recovery time, they won't have to worry about non-jump elements or PCS skills, so they can just focus on maximizing base value -- including skills that are too risky to attempt in a long program and possibly not allowed in current short program rules -- and also maximizing GOE as much as they can.
For skaters who have already maxed out on in-air rotation, they could aim to maximize their own base values and their GOEs.
If there are also rewards built in for skills like jumping both directions or jumping multiple rotations from walley and inside axel takeoffs or putting quads at the ends of combinations, etc., then we'd see more skaters attempt these skills in this format.
No PCS, so if they want to throw out a difficult jump, then stand or glide around on two feet to catch their breath before setting up for the next jump attempt, that would be fine. No penalty. (Reward if they do a difficult entrance into the next jump, but they could stand stand stand crossover crossover spread eagle and get the same reward as if they landed the first and went straight into the setup for the second.)
And then if several skaters manage to land some clean or close-to-clean quints in this more forgiving format, some of them may become comfortable enough with them to put one or two into a freeskate. But I think we'd see them first in a format where they can just telegraph the heck out of an element that they wouldn't dare try in a program where everything else counts too.
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- Feb 17, 2010
I think you're right. The biggest obstacle for someone who can even do the jump in practice would be the difficulty of warming it up (with all the other elements) in four minutes and having the energy to do a difficult program after the quint. I could maybe see someone doing it just for history, like Nathan doing the 4Lo so he can say he's done all the quads through the lutz, but I don't think it would ever be a regular part of someone's program in big events.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
:eeking:Now we're getting somewhere! What about having two three-man teams on the ice at the same time. Each team would have a "jumper," a "blocker" and a "tackler." The jumper would try to sneak in a jump before the other team's tackler could take him out mid-air. Meanwhile, the blocker would try to block the other team's tackler from getting to the jumper.
Sort of hockey combined with short track.
This would have the additional advantage of silencing the critics who say that figure skating is a wuss sport. :yes:
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- Joined
- Mar 3, 2007
Honestly, the jump in that video was indistinguishable to me to a 4T
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that those skaters hated artistry. They just weren't as good at it as some others were. In fact, I think that all the big jumpers also worked like the dickens to become complete skaters, just as the graceful gazelles tried to work on their jumps.
But I do think that a jump contest just for fun at the beginning of a competition would be entertaining and also instructional for the audience. Like if you went to a ballet, and before the curtain came up all the dancers would come out and say, "This is fifth position. " And then, "This is a grand jeté." Now we are going to put on a play demonstrating these moves and set to music.
As for "what the audience likes," my own feeling (reserving the right to be proved wrong) is that the jump contest would be of more interest to the athletes themselves than to the audience. Are the current "top jump" contests popular, or are they mainly for the participants?
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It would be dangerous to have blockers and tacklers while skaters are doing difficult jumps. There are too many injuries as it is, even without other ppl intentionally blocking or tackling them during the attempt.
IMHO a jumping event is most closely related to the vault in gymnastics. The gymnast gets to perform 2 vaults of his or her choice, but the vaults cannot be from the same family or you get heavily penalized. I guess the skating analogy would be one would be a toe jump and the other edge. Or maybe a skater gets to perform 3 jumps inclusive of one combination but it must be edge, toe and axel.
IMHO a jumping event is most closely related to the vault in gymnastics. The gymnast gets to perform 2 vaults of his or her choice, but the vaults cannot be from the same family or you get heavily penalized. I guess the skating analogy would be one would be a toe jump and the other edge. Or maybe a skater gets to perform 3 jumps inclusive of one combination but it must be edge, toe and axel.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, I was kidding about the blockers and tacklers.
But the suggestion to have a contest where you do an edge jump, a toe jump, an Axel and maybe a combination -- why not also do another solo jump, another combination, a three-jump combination, three spins and two step sequences? I think that would be more fun for the athletes and more satisfying to the audience.
Plus, you could play some music in the background. :yes:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
gkelly said:
For some reason I never regarded "telegraphing" as a negative feature. I don't mind waiting for it while the anticipation builds, as long as the jump itself is worth the wait.
Back in the day, when the triple Axel was the big jump, the typical men's rogram always started out like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFurTW8OHxM&t=0m40s
lukz2 said:
I think we could push that idea farther. In gymnastics you compete separately on the different apparatuses, then combine results for all-around.
What if we had a new Olympic event called "World's Greatest Olympic Ice Sport Athlete" modeled after the decathlon? Athletes would compete in skate jumping, speed skating, short track, luge, skeleton, and one-person bob. :yes:
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2006
Math man, that is hilarious because before I clicked on the link I was going to post any Todd Eldredge video to show the worst culprit!!! He's just all crossovers and stalking for two lengths of the rink!!! LOL
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- Feb 22, 2014
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Hear hear! I also love it when there's a run out of a jump, it looks soooo nice! I appreciate transitions are hard and all, but too many of them kind of ruin the moment
OK, it did take a while for him to get there, but that was a great music choice and the 3A looked huge! Too bad they can't retroactively use that Icescope thing to measure it. I for one would like to see the stats on Viktor Petrenko's 3A, the height he got on it was insane!
This would never happen, but if it did...I'd watch
Incidentally, I was looking in the Ladies and Quads thread and a young lady jumped a 5S with pole assistance: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/s...and-the-quad&p=2393475&viewfull=1#post2393475
Probably way too much assistance, but how weird would it be if Quints did become a thing? Future people would look back at our favourite skaters from today and be "Well it's nice, but triples and a quad or two? Basic!"
I was just thinking more like cutting off the other skaters' traffic patterns so they can't get a usable setup for their jumps. Which happens inadvertently all the time in practice sessions and warmups; just make it a strategic choice for skaters in between getting their own jumps accomplished.
Any actual physical contact could be a foul with appropriate penalties. (Assuming both skaters aren't carted off to the hospital as a result, which would be penalty enough.)
That event already exists and I'm not suggesting to get rid of it. Quite the opposite.
Just to add a different event structured in a way to facilitate the best jumpers including really difficult jumps that aren't worth trying in a freeskate, and to give separate medals to the best jumping and the best all-around skating.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Bringing the issue of wearing helmets and other protective gear back into the spotlight. :yes:
I think it would be cool actually to try to formulate some rules for this new event. If the goal is to get skaters to present hard quads and quints that they wouldn't dare put into their free skating program, they are all the more not going to be able to attempt them while being interfered with by other skaters. It seems likely that the contest would turn into a "small ball" game, where the only way you can score points is to sneak in a double when no one is looking.
I think there would have to be well defined jumping lanes and safe zones where, once you have established your position, no one could come at you during the approach and jump. I think the winner would turn out to be the skater who could maintain the sharpest laser focus and who has ice water in his veins. Even just the distraction of someone cutting in front of you as a feint would unnerve mere mortals enough to throw the jump off. I can envision a lot of pops.
If it were up to me, I think I would go with a less radical proposal. If the jump contest was completely separate and had its own medals, I think it would just be like the second-string comedian who comes out to warm up the crowd before the headliner takes the stage. On the other hand, if the skaters themselves like it, that might be reason enoungh right there to do it, never mind the audience.
The less radical proposal would be to have two "balanced program" type skates, but one would emphasize doing as many hard jumps as you can and the other would go more toward the "balancing" part. (Actually, the current Long Program and Short Program, respectively, are sort of like that.)
For the jump program, only jumps would count for TES (no spins or footwork), but the competitors would still receive some sort of bonus for how well the jumps are woven into a well-constructed program. They could do some moves in the field while resting between jumps, arrange their jumps in an esthetically pleasing pattern, jump to music, etc.
Then in the "balanced program there would a stricter limitation on the number of rotational jumps (say three -- just show us your best), while also receiving points for well done spirals. Ina Bauers, spread eagles, split jumps, etc.
