Olympic figure skater, coaches being investigated for allegations

[RobinA]

In Pennsylvania, yes. In Florida, I do not know. It is a matter of state law.

Yeah, this recently changed in PA because of the Penn State mess. A LOT of people who didn't used to be are now mandated reporters here. Coaches were not but now are. I never even thought of that when I made my comments. I forgot the reporting is state law and figured Z/F were done. Maybe not.

 

[RobinA]

Nor do I comprehend, even for consenting adults, but that makes me a dinosaur as well.

However one thing that I have learned from the youngsters in my orbit is that there are accounts called “Finstas” which stands for fake Instagram accounts. In fact, I was advised by said youngsters to set up “Finstas” for my differering interests (@JasonsBiggestFan, here I come) rather than be a fuddy duddy with my real name and photo. I remain a fuddy-duddy.

So if Morgan indeed sent these photos to an account of @SuzyQ[realname] with profile pics and photos of Suzy skating with her adolescent friends, it’s not just horrendous, it is beyond stupid.

Just a complete mess

Well, I'm a fuddy-duddy and an OK Boomer wrapped into one. Sending nude pictures, taking nude pictures??? I never got it. I had a rule as far back as in 1976 - NO PICTURES. EVER. Pictures have been causing heartache since the camera was invented and continue to do so. And as far as fake Instagram accounts? Nope, nobody ever tracked them down. Nosireee!

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

Yeah, this recently changed in PA because of the Penn State mess. A LOT of people who didn't used to be are now mandated reporters here. Coaches were not but now are. I never even thought of that when I made my comments. I forgot the reporting is state law and figured Z/F were done. Maybe not.

This is the legal question about mandatory reporting, and of course it is important (though Zimmermann and Fontana were not the victims' coaches, maybe only the victims' coaches have to report?) but there is also 1) the legal question about pressing one victim against reporting, 2) the moral question of the whole.

 

[Tavi...]

I guess because of my experience as a former Criminal Investigator with the Manhattan's District Attorney's Office, in NY, I have a higher standard of proof and credibility than the average person, because I know all too well the process of evidence and procedures, that I am not too quick to make judgment or jumped to half-baked conclusions. But that puts me at an advantage that I should give some consideration.

So be that as it may, I had hoped to bring a level of common-sense and rationality to this conversation, but as the saying goes, let sleeping dogs lie, and don't argue with fools. Enjoy your silly speculations and irrational innuendos regardless of the consequences or who it may hurt. When it's over, we'll all pretend these silly conversations never took place, and no one has to look the fool.

In the first place, there is no evidence that criminal charges have been filed, so the standard of proof applicable in criminal cases is irrelevant. The standard of proof for a SafeSport violation is a preponderance of the evidence - the same standard of proof that applies in civil cases. See Section XI.C of the SafeSport Code:

https://uscenterforsafesport.org/wp.../2019-SafeSport-Code-04.15.19-Hyperlinked.pdf

In the second place, lashing out at other posters and calling them fools does not make your argument more convincing.

 

[mrrice]

This is the legal question about mandatory reporting, and of course it is important (though Zimmermann and Fontana were not the victims' coaches, maybe only the victims' coaches have to report?) but there is also 1) the legal question about pressing one victim against reporting, 2) the moral question of the whole.

The fact that they are not her direct coaches makes a huge difference to me. It may be disappointing to some but, I've seen it the dance world and you just do not get involved with another coaches student. I would have called her direct coach and spoken with them and let them report the incident.

 

[karne]

If this is proven to be true it’s despicable but let us pause before all of these careers are ruined and/or we have another suicide.

It's not fair to the skaters, and we've already had one suicide following these accusations!

Every time I think the defenders can't get worse, they do.

Say it very slowly: Coughlin's suicide was Coughlin's fault, nobody else's. He was a coward who chose to end any chance of a resolution in the way that was most traumatic for his victims and everyone else. He had his chance to defend himself. He was offered counselling and support. And he refused it all. A last act of power over his victims, denying them closure forever.

How many victims commit suicide each year, despairing because their abuser never comes to justice, or they're labelled liars, or people defend their abuser saying "but he's a good person/but I like that person's sporting prowess"...? Far, far more than the number of abusers who decide to make sure their crimes are never fully investigated.

 

[Sai Bon]

As I sit here looking over these posts, my heart is heavy and all I can think is remember Emmett Till, a 14 year old boy accused by a 21 year old woman of looking at her, and he was kidnapped, mutilated, shot in the head and dumped in a river [lynched], all without so much of any due process of law....only for years later, the accuser to admit she lied about what happened.

And it's funny, I am currently working on a project about the advancements in Artificial Intelligence, but as I read these posts I'm only reminded of how little advancement there has been in human intelligence. The original violent mob with guns, pitchforks, and torches on the ready with the mere mention of an accusation, still exists. One poster is already prepared to see Morgan serving time in a Florida prison!

No, no evidence is needed. All that is require is the mention of the word, and the bloodletting begins. Look, I am just as shocked as everyone else with this news, but the behavior here is abhorrent, to say the least among a supposedly sophisticated, classical, and artistic-loving crowd. This is so very shameful. :hopelessness:

But don't let me spoil your fun, continue....but remember Emmett Till and see his open casket of the mutilation he incurred as the result of an unfounded accusation; along with the countless other victims of such vile sentiments which history can affirm.

I am not saying Morgan is innocent and he did nothing wrong, but what I am saying is let there be due process, and justice will be served to protect the innocent.

An excellent movie starkly illustrating the mob mentality is "Judy and Punch." Highly recommended.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7798644/

 

[Edwin]

Well, Cipres is in France, where neither SafeSport nor the Florida judiciary have any jurisdiction. Chances he will return to that rink to recommence training?

What most interest me now, is how the French federation will proceed and how the domestic public opinion will be shaped. For now, everybody remains silent, until a first conclusion of SafeSport is made public and either a clearance or a formal prosecution follows, this time in a legal court?

What is the best cause of action in this case? Ride out the storm in your safe home harbour, or man up and try to actively clear your name and reputation of any wrong doing? The truth here is probably very diffuse, and there will be no clear winners, only losers, I am afraid.

Quit your career before ISU blacklists you?

Then of course there is the matter of this presumed accomplice, Vinny, and the rink owners. I imagine there aren't many rinks deep in hot and humid Florida, so it is a valuable possession and source of income.

 

[beachmouse]

Well, Cipres is in France, where neither SafeSport nor the Florida judiciary have nay jurisdiction. Chances he will return to that rink to recommence training?

I'd put it at 50/50 if he is allowed to keep the visa that allows him to train in the USA. (I'm guessing he's not just doing the kind of brief training camp that lets a French passport holder enter on an ESTA waiver) Doesn't seem like it take much to get one of those revoked these days.

 

[sx98423]

the big difference here is that he was an african american boy and the accuser was a white woman during a time when racism in america was a huge problem (and still is). this is not at all comparable to cipres who is a well established and popular figure skater

 

[Ulrica]

Emmet Till has nothing to do with this case. He was persecuted by white people because a white woman accused him, in a time when back people were killed just because of being black (hell, they still are killed just for this reason and it's almost 2020)

Cipres sent an inappropriate picture to a child. There's evidence, there's no speculation. The fact that there are people defending him is absolutely DISGUSTING. And I hope the people defending him never, EVER, have young girls in their care by any circumstance. The fact that many of these people are fans of young girls and women in figure skating or any sport, really makes me nauseous.

 

[LRK]

The person who brought up the Emmet Till case is also African American/black. I don't think they need racism towards African Americans/black people explained to them.

 

[sailormoon]

Cipres sent an inappropriate picture to a child. There's evidence, there's no speculation. The fact that there are people defending him is absolutely DISGUSTING. And I hope the people defending him never, EVER, have young girls in their care by any circumstance. The fact that many of these people are fans of young girls and women in figure skating or any sport, really makes me nauseous.

He used his official Instagram account for the purpose and the private message was reviewed by SafeSport officials. There is no excuse for what he has done.

This means there is more news than what was sent here? I didn't read anywhere SafeSport officials had communicated about having reviewed the messages.

It was actually done by USA Today's sports journalist. But the evidence would be reviewed by SafeSport as the investigation continues.

 

[DizzyFrenchie]

He used his official Instagram account for the purpose and the private message was reviewed by SafeSport officials. There is no excuse for what he has done.

This means there is more news than what was sent here? I didn't read anywhere SafeSport officials had communicated about having reviewed the messages.
I don't mean I don't believe they were sent (I am pretty sure they were), I mean if there is a new official statement, I should like to read it, it may give us news.

 

[el henry]

This means there is more news than what was sent here? I didn't read anywhere SafeSport officials had communicated about having reviewed the messages.
I don't mean I don't believe they were sent (I am pretty sure they were), I mean if there is a new official statement, I should like to read it, it may give us news.

I also did not see specifics in the article that the message was forwarded to SafeSport, although one would presume that if a complaint was received in August, investigators may have asked for the message by this point in time. That is an assumption.

The article also says that the message was forwarded from “what appears to be Morgan’s verified Instagram account“. Therefor one would believe that the reporter saw the account, with the blue check, and with whatever Morgan’s name on IG is, and the photos labeled as coming from this account.

Of course, to absolutely confirm that this is Morgan’s account, one would need his account information from Instagram. I would think in a matter like this Instagram would cooperate, although I know in the past it has been reported that social media companies have been reluctant to provide such information. In a case regarding indecent contact with a minor, I believe that they would, but this is just a belief and based on absolutely no knowledge or research.

 

[Tavi...]

The fact that they are not her direct coaches makes a huge difference to me. It may be disappointing to some but, I've seen it the dance world and you just do not get involved with another coaches student. I would have called her direct coach and spoken with them and let them report the incident.

Sorry Mrrice, but you are wrong about this. When coaches witness or become aware of the abuse, harassment, bullying, sexual misconduct, etc. of any athlete, they are required to report it to SafeSport. Their obligations are not limited to their own students. Not to report is a violation for which you can be penalized. If you are aware of abuse, regardless of whether it’s your student, you must report it yourself to SafeSport.

 

[moonvine]

Well, I'm a fuddy-duddy and an OK Boomer wrapped into one. Sending nude pictures, taking nude pictures??? I never got it. I had a rule as far back as in 1976 - NO PICTURES. EVER. Pictures have been causing heartache since the camera was invented and continue to do so. And as far as fake Instagram accounts? Nope, nobody ever tracked them down. Nosireee!

Well, the pictures in question don’t show a face. I used to enter an IRC chat room when dinosaurs roamed the earth and be inundated with them.

 

[moonvine]

It’s likely that he knew who the girl asking for his pic was. It’s also possible he did not know her (an Olympic skater and someone novice-intermediate not in the same discipline?), and that he did not know it was this girl who asked for the photo. But the report is somewhat unclear as to what happened on Instagram. Did Morgen send those almost unsolicited? What was the prior message like? Did she write it herself? I know when I was 13 I wouldn’t know how or dare to ask some famous person on their social media account for a nude photo, which makes it even stranger given that she wasn’t forced or intimidated to send that message initially.

I probably would be too shy to ask for a clothed photo at that age.

 

[moonvine]

I'm sad that things like that happens, but glad that it was reported. I'm sick of athletes of high profile being protected. I was never the biggest fan of J/C skating (I liked them, but that's that), but I really liked the Zinermann & Fontana team. Not anymore Also, the article does not mention if Vanessa was aware?

I expect if Christine Brennan had any evidence Vanessa was aware she would have included it in her article. Which doesn’t mean Vanessa did not know but until some sort of evidence is presented that she did I will assume she did not know.

 

[DSQ]

What’s interesting to me is that apparently the coaches in question didn’t know about the investigation until the USA Today article. I read on Twitter that this is because Safe Sport contact the victim and witnesses first before informing the accused.

I certainly understand the logic in doing that, with so many colleagues involved they don’t want people to start creating “alternative narratives”. However what I don’t understand is why the coaches and Cipre weren’t temporarily suspended from the rink if they could be a danger or why this was put in press if it’s at such an early stage that it’s conceivable the investigation could be dropped.

The French press have reported the French Fed are helping Morgen to “clear this up” and he’s hired a lawyer. (Link: http://www.rfi.fr/sport/20191210-patinage-enquete-morgan-cipres-photos-obscenes-envoyees-une-mineure)