Russian Hegemony in Ladies Ice Skating

[KatGrace1925]

86 approvals per year for Olympic sports is an outrageous number. And, once again, like in Simon Biles case the main question is why steroids, hormones, masking agents are approved? They heal faster? That's not the answer. Athletes have injuries. If some of them use steroids to get back in shape (Serena) and others have to take the non-forbidden stuff, this is not a fair game.

But reality is Simone Biles diagnosis is a super common one these days in the US. My dad is a pediatrician who is against medicating kids with such intense drugs to treat ADHD, he doesn't think it's good. A lot of doctors feel it's a fine safe practice. There are quite a few kids here on the same substance as Biles, the rest of the world doesn't treat ADHD like the US does. I am willing to bet there are a lot more US athletes with the ADHD diagnosis and it's not because of unfair play it's because doctors here really push this medicine as the answer to ADHD in ways other countries just don't. So should US kids who have ADHD just stop it with sports because the medicine they were prescribed is banned? No that's why the therapeutic exemptions exist because medical direction from experts should be taken into consideration. I am willing to bet other countries have plenty of TUE's as well, the US is just targeted in the TUE discourse because of US vs Russia sentiments. Russian athletes can also apply for TUE's if they need to take medications as directed by their physicians. It's not a closed program that is labeled US only.

 

[[email protected]]

But reality is Simone Biles diagnosis is a super common one these days in the US. My dad is a pediatrician who is against medicating kids with such intense drugs to treat ADHD, he doesn't think it's good. A lot of doctors feel it's a fine safe practice. There are quite a few kids here on the same substance as Biles, the rest of the world doesn't treat ADHD like the US does. I am willing to bet there are a lot more US athletes with the ADHD diagnosis and it's not because of unfair play it's because doctors here really push this medicine as the answer to ADHD in ways other countries just don't. So should US kids who have ADHD just stop it with sports because the medicine they were prescribed is banned? No that's why the therapeutic exemptions exist because medical direction from experts should be taken into consideration. I am willing to bet other countries have plenty of TUE's as well, the US is just targeted in the TUE discourse because of US vs Russia sentiments. Russian athletes can also apply for TUE's if they need to take medications as directed by their physicians. It's not a closed program that is labeled US only.

Yes, they can. Somehow, they get very few. They are healthier than US athletes? I doubt so. I don't know the exact answer. My view is that: a) the whole concept of TUE is dubious b) because of a) it is much more difficult for Russian athletes to get those from those who approve TUE.

Simone Biles and Serena cases are the most controversial because they are big time athletes.

With Biles, OK, ADHD is recognized as a medical condition in the USA unlike other countries. But even then there are various types of treatment. She, her team, her doctor (why should we care?) chose the one with amphetamine which is one of the most famous early doping. And she took it right before the Olympics, may be the very same day of her performance. A person who can do such cosmic jumps has a problem with concentration so that only a strong performance enhancer can help? I don't buy this, sorry.

Serena used steroids to recover after the injury. Yes, steroids quickly build and restore muscles. But isn't the whole notion of anti-doping is to forbid athletes to quickly build and restore muscles?

 

[KatGrace1925]

Yes, they can. Somehow, they get very few. They are healthier than US athletes? I doubt so. I don't know the exact answer. My view is that: a) the whole concept of TUE is dubious b) because of a) it is much more difficult for Russian athletes to get those from those who approve TUE.

Simone Biles and Serena cases are the most controversial because they are big time athletes.

With Biles, OK, ADHD is recognized as a medical condition in the USA unlike other countries. But even then there are various types of treatment. She, her team, her doctor (why should we care?) chose the one with amphetamine which is one of the most famous early doping. And she took it right before the Olympics, may be the very same day of her performance. A person who can do such cosmic jumps has a problem with concentration so that only a strong performance enhancer can help? I don't buy this, sorry.

Serena used steroids to recover after the injury. Yes, steroids quickly build and restore muscles. But isn't the whole notion of anti-doping is to forbid athletes to quickly build and restore muscles?

Um there's actually not a lot of options for ADHD medication in the US, the big contention among US doctors is that they basically are prescribing amphetamine's to children. That's what ADHD medications all are here, that's just the reality. It's not the patient who chooses that, the doctor will choose which medication they go on and she was placed on it when she was a child and has taken it since before she became a world class athlete. And you're making a claim it's more difficult to get medical exemptions as a Russian, but where's the cold hard evidence on this?

I think the reality is like ADHD there are just a lot more medical conditions in which US doctors throw medicine at patients they shouldn't. It isn't just my dad in the medical field, my uncle worked for the pharma board in the US, this is a growing problem in our country the over prescribing of medication for conditions we don't fully understand which are relatively new in the past 40 years of medicine. This is a cultural thing in the US that is trackable and known, it has nothing to do with other countries being healthier it just has to do with our medical practices being so quick to prescribe things. I think my biggest problem with the TUE discussion and the US is that it ignores other factors and the facts of cultural issues and just tries to make it seem like the US is getting an easy pass and other's aren't.

Just cause there might have been more given doesn't mean a thing. What's the ratio of exemptions vs. applied for exemptions across the whole world? What are the statistics on which kinds of conditions are reported amongst athletes everywhere? No one has researched this data in full so while we're having this discussion a lot is based on emotional assumption and not factual data.

I am a logical person, I don't think speaking about these things focused on one set of numbers is wrong because you can't get the whole story until things are really truly mathematically analyzed. How many Russian TUE's are rejected? How many TUE's from smaller countries are rejected, what sorts of conditions are rejected for TUE? What kinds of documentation needs to be submitted? In order to have a meaningful discussion everything need to be analyzed.

 

[Scott512]

From USADA 2018 report

Stimulants - 158 Approved
Anabolic Agents - 17 Approved
Glucocorticoids (steroids) - 57 Approved
Diuretics and Other Masking Agents - 33 Approved
Hormone and Metabolic Modulators - 26 Approved
Peptide Hormones, Growth Factors and Related Substances - 12 Approved
Narcotics - 13 Approved
Cannabinoids - 8 Approved
Beta-2 Agonists ("asthma") - 20 Approved

Very disturbing. I stopped supporting the usoc many years ago. Reading stuff like this if it's accurate will never get me to go back to giving money to them again. St Jude's Children's Research Hospital has been getting my usoc money for many years.

Masking agents? 33 approved. The athletes are lucky we don't know who they are or they would be deemed cheaters. The question is why is WADA putting up with this?

My favorite tennis player for many years was Maria Sharapova and she had her career ruined because she took doctor recommended meldonium for over 10 years before it was banned and then it was still in her system when she play the Australian Open a few years ago and did not know it had been banned. Not knowing was her bed. But reading out all these American athletes got approval to take certain drugs which have greater impact than even meldonium makes me very pissed off.

 

[[email protected]]

Um there's actually not a lot of options for ADHD medication in the US, the big contention among US doctors is that they basically are prescribing amphetamine's to children. That's what ADHD medications all are here, that's just the reality. It's not the patient who chooses that, the doctor will choose which medication they go on and she was placed on it when she was a child and has taken it since before she became a world class athlete. And you're making a claim it's more difficult to get medical exemptions as a Russian, but where's the cold hard evidence on this?

I think the reality is like ADHD there are just a lot more medical conditions in which US doctors throw medicine at patients they shouldn't. It isn't just my dad in the medical field, my uncle worked for the pharma board in the US, this is a growing problem in our country the over prescribing of medication for conditions we don't fully understand which are relatively new in the past 40 years of medicine. This is a cultural thing in the US that is trackable and known, it has nothing to do with other countries being healthier it just has to do with our medical practices being so quick to prescribe things. I think my biggest problem with the TUE discussion and the US is that it ignores other factors and the facts of cultural issues and just tries to make it seem like the US is getting an easy pass and other's aren't.

Just cause there might have been more given doesn't mean a thing. What's the ratio of exemptions vs. applied for exemptions across the whole world? What are the statistics on which kinds of conditions are reported amongst athletes everywhere? No one has researched this data in full so while we're having this discussion a lot is based on emotional assumption and not factual data.

I am a logical person, I don't think speaking about these things focused on one set of numbers is wrong because you can't get the whole story until things are really truly mathematically analyzed. How many Russian TUE's are rejected? How many TUE's from smaller countries are rejected, what sorts of conditions are rejected for TUE? What kinds of documentation needs to be submitted? In order to have a meaningful discussion everything need to be analyzed.

You wrote a thorough and a level-headed post. Thank you.

I don't have the analysis. I just have facts. Russians obtain much fewer TUEs than Americans, Simon Biles who shows out of this world things takes amphetamine because otherwise she has supposedly issues with concentration. Serena obtained the approval to use steroids (I might take a look but I am quite sure that not a single Russian athlete got ever an approvement for legal use of steroids no matter what the reason was). Russians used meldonium en masse - the stuff that many named placebo without any medically proven effect. Yet USADA pushed WADA to include it in the list with all the cases that followed. Have RUSADA before getting banned pushed WADA to ban any substance popular in the West? I doubt so. The field is not level. That's, of course, my personal opinion.

 

[jenaj]

If I hadn't read this thread, I never would have known that the information about Simone Biles's TUE was discovered through an illegal Russian hack of WADA and USADA computers. The hackers were indicted by the US Justice Department but of course cannot be charged as long as they stay in Russia. Information about who has a TUE and for what is private. We have no way of knowing whether Simone or anyone else still has a TUE--unless, of course, the hackers strike again. If some country thinks the playing field is not level, they should raise it with WADA. Likewise, if there is evidence of corruption. As long as the rules are in place and countries are following them, there should be no issue of unfairness--my personal opinion.

 

[DSQ]

You mean asthma is especially widespread in US?

It’s common among athletes, I don’t know about Americans in particular. Again I know you’re being sarcastic but it’s a fact.

TUEs are a part of the system if you disagree them fine but hate the player not the game because they are within the rules.

Personally I think the benefits of allowing athletes that have minor conditions to compete on a level playing field is worth the risk that they might be abused.

 

[[email protected]]

If I hadn't read this thread, I never would have known that the information about Simone Biles's TUE was discovered through an illegal Russian hack of WADA and USADA computers. The hackers were indicted by the US Justice Department but of course cannot be charged as long as they stay in Russia. Information about who has a TUE and for what is private. We have no way of knowing whether Simone or anyone else still has a TUE--unless, of course, the hackers strike again. If some country thinks the playing field is not level, they should raise it with WADA. Likewise, if there is evidence of corruption. As long as the rules are in place and countries are following them, there should be no issue of unfairness--my personal opinion.

Russian president when asked about some strange and seemingly unfair things that happen in Russia replies every time : "why do you ask me? There are laws and there is court - refer to them". Very similar vibes. I hope that we won't start the discussion with the argument that some laws are fair and objective together with those who overlook them and others (Russian) could be discarded per se, just because.

 

[el henry]

If I hadn't read this thread, I never would have known that the information about Simone Biles's TUE was discovered through an illegal Russian hack of WADA and USADA computers. The hackers were indicted by the US Justice Department but of course cannot be charged as long as they stay in Russia. Information about who has a TUE and for what is private. We have no way of knowing whether Simone or anyone else still has a TUE--unless, of course, the hackers strike again. If some country thinks the playing field is not level, they should raise it with WADA. Likewise, if there is evidence of corruption. As long as the rules are in place and countries are following them, there should be no issue of unfairness--my personal opinion.

I find it extraordinary that anyone would think that mocking an athlete, based on stolen personal information about their health, somehow supports whatever theory that is being constructed.

If that’s the basis of an argument, in my opinion, it may safely be disregarded.

 

[McBibus]

I find it extraordinary that anyone would think that mocking an athlete, based on stolen personal information about their health, somehow supports whatever theory that is being constructed.

If that’s the basis of an argument, in my opinion, it may safely be disregarded.

I'm very debated about that.
On one side we have the right to provacy and not see disclosed a medical condition.
On the other there is the transparency toward your fellow competitor and the public.

Not suprisingly it's very similar to weighting the right of people with condition to practice sport and the ritght to fight an equal battle.

Both are not black and white

 

[lpt]

If athlete can't compete without life-long using of prohibited medicine, he shouldn't be an athlete. Even if athlete is American.
If athlete never in his life used prohibited medicine, he shouldn't be punished. Even if athlete is Russian.
I know that in the real life things are exactly the opposite, but that's my opinion.

 

[Mathman]

I don't quite understand the relevance of Simone Biles' health issues to the question of Russian hegemony in figure skating.

Personally, I think the current dominance of Russian ladies is due to the fact that they have some remarkably talented skaters, like Medvedeva, Zagitova, the three A's, Valieva, etc., and have found (in large part through the insights and diligence of Eteri Tutberidze's achool) effective methods for developing this talent to its full potential.

Whether Stalin was saint or sinner does not seem to have much relevance to the topic, in my opinion, nor does the question of whether bicyclist Lance Armstrong took performance enhansing drugs when he won the Tour de France.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't quite understand the relevance of Simone Biles' health issues to the question of Russian hegemony in figure skating.

Personally, I think the current dominance of Russian ladies is due to the fact that they have some remarkably talented skaters, like Medvedeva, Zagitova, the three A's, Valieva, etc., and have found (in large part through the insights and diligence of Eteri Tutberidze's achool) effective methods for developing this talent to its full potential.

Whether Stalin was saint or sinner does not seem to have much relevance to the topic, in my opinion, nor does the question of whether bicyclist Lance Armstrong took performance enhansing drugs when he won the Tour de France.

It started on page2 with a reference to Putin and an explanation that the hegemony is because Russian skaters are dopers. This post is still there.

 

[Edwin]

Regarding TUE's etc: what Russian origin medicines are on the list of TUE allowed medication? If none of the Russian medicines are acknowledged/registered with WADA or the international authority/recognised regulatory body on medicines for the commercial worldwide market?

Imported and expensive "Western" medicines from acknowledged manufacturers aren't perhaps regulated by the Russian authorities in charge over medication and public health and safety?

Which means Russian athletes have less chance of a favourable TUE, wether really suffering from this or that condition or not? And no chance of 'exploiting' the system to their advantage.

Isn't this mentioned by Moskvina in her latest interview?

 

[[email protected]]

I'm very debated about that.
On one side we have the right to provacy and not see disclosed a medical condition.
On the other there is the transparency toward your fellow competitor and the public.

Not suprisingly it's very similar to weighting the right of people with condition to practice sport and the ritght to fight an equal battle.

Both are not black and white

I am for transparency about what's going into athlete's body when we are talking about Olympic champions. When we are talking about regular folks, privacy, sure

 

[el henry]

I'm very debated about that.
On one side we have the right to provacy and not see disclosed a medical condition.
On the other there is the transparency toward your fellow competitor and the public.

Not suprisingly it's very similar to weighting the right of people with condition to practice sport and the ritght to fight an equal battle.

Both are not black and white

I understand your query. It depends for me on the rules and the context.

Were athletes informed that if they submitted documents regarding any disability, those documents could be made public? Were they told that *before* submitting the reports? Then they are open.

Were they told that the process was a medical one, and that their documents were confidential? then I believe stealing those documents and making them public is wrong.

If the process needs to be changed, folks can work toward changing the process, but in my opinion any “evidence” obtained by stealing and attacking and mocking particular athletes won’t support that change.

 

[jenaj]

I am for transparency about what's going into athlete's body when we are talking about Olympic champions. When we are talking about regular folks, privacy, sure

Medical issues are usually confidential. I can’t imagine that this information would be made public. The WADA has the ability to audit TUE decisions for compliance. If they are not, a protest should be initiated.

 

[Mathman]

It started on page2 with a reference to Putin and an explanation that the hegemony is because Russian skaters are dopers. This post is still there.

Whatever page it started on, I do not think that this line of discussion has any merit, and, frankly, is just trolling.

 

[[email protected]]

Whatever page it started on, I do not think that this line of discussion has any merit, and, frankly, is just trolling.

You wrote more than once that we should be all friends. You are a moderator and oversee rule compliance. Why do you disregard a post that is not only unfriendly but is a pure trolling?

"As long as Putin is in power? Afterwards... cleaner sports".

It is obvious that unless such posts are moderated they will provoke responses which will be unfriendly as well. Or else it will be: "you will eat whatever we feed you".

 

[Mathman]

You wrote more than once that we should be all friends. You are a moderator and oversee rule compliance. Why do you disregard a post that is not only unfriendly but is a pure trolling?

The moderators depend on the membership to use the "report" feature to call our attention to posts that are in violation of the Golden Skate posting guidelines. We do not see every post (or even visit every thread) ourselves.

What trolls do is make outrageous posts solely for the perverse "pleasure" of seeing if they can provoke an angry response from their "victims." I am in sympathy with the responders, even so. It is easy to say, "Don't feed the troll" and then go on about one's business -- but in practice, these guys are good at their craft and will always be able to find ways to get other people's goat.

What is disappointing is that the resulting one-upsmanship kills the thread, to the detriment of our common enjoyment of figure skating and of discussing figure skating topics.

Me? I try to be cool except when people say something bad about Michelle Kwan.