Should minimum age for seniors be raised?

[CaroLiza_fan]

I'm from The Netherlands (from which country this proposal derives) and to be honest I just don't know whether this is the solution to kids winning an Olympics and then retiring. Because that's the point, isn't it? Not health and safety, but whether it is a good thing that athletes are only on top for a year, and then either retire because of having achieved everything already or decline because of puberty problems...although I saw a photograph on instagram that illustrated quite clearly that Alena is past that phase. She's a woman physically alright, even if she isn't one yet due to age limits on what is an adult. Personally, I do have a preference for women's skating vs young pre-pubescent girls (whatever their jump capacity). Furthermore, I like to 'follow' skaters through their careers, and don't like retirers at 15 very much. So, I would have said hurrah to this proposal in 1998 (when Tara Lapinski won), and in 2002 (with Sarah Hughes as the winner), but having seen in-between older skaters doing a good job too...sorry. I just don't know. I don't want pre-pubescent girls (or boys for that matter) on the senior scene...please stick to juniors for the jumpy, not so çomplete package' kind of skates. But, on the other hand, there are very maturely skating juniors. Why should they be limited to the junior scene? Perhaps the solution is not so much raising the minimum age as squarely defining what is a junior and what isn't, and forbid the overlap which now does exist. In effect also a kind of age limit but perhaps more fair: you're 15, so you're a junior. You're 16, so you're a senior. (or 17, whatever). Thoughts?

I take it writing "Alena" rather than "Alina" was a typing error. Because Leonova has been past the puberty phase for a good while now...

You bring up an important point which dispels a lot of the arguments in this thread:

Alina is already physically mature.​

Last season, it wasn't that a 15 year old girl was competing in Seniors and winning everything that was making me uncomfortable. Hey, I thought it was a great achievement.

The thing that was making me uncomfortable was that this 15 year old girl already had a womanly figure... and was making the most of it.

It may be socially acceptable for a 17, 18 or 19 year old teenage girl to make the most of her assets, but it is definitely not socially acceptable for a 15 or 16 year old teenage girl to do so.

And therein lies the paradox. People don't want young girls to be in Seniors because they are not as mature in terms of their skating. But, people also don't want young girls who have physically matured at an earlier age to be in Juniors because it brings a sexual undertone to a competition that is supposed to be for children.

So, what are we supposed to do with them?!

There is no definitive answer that pleases everybody. You can't win.

The only thing I can think of that would shut all the complainers up is to tell Junior skaters when they hit puberty to clear off for a few years until they are mature in every sense. And then they can come back into Seniors.

And if that happens, well, that is the end of the sport, as chances are they won't come back.

I am like you in that I prefer watching mature skaters. Maybe it's because I'm a guy, but to me it does seem a bit creepy if somebody who is not related to them is watching pre-pubescent skaters.

And I am also like you in that I like to follow skaters over a long period of time and see how their careers develop. It takes time to get to know somebody and their style, and you can't do that if they retire very early.

But, I do think it is silly to use this as an actual reason to change the age boundaries. It sounds like desperation, that they can't think of a proper reason.

I think you have hit the nail on the head that the levels should be based more on ability than age, and that there needs to be a proper definition of what is required to be in each level.

But, that won't make any difference to the problem I have been concentrating on in this post - what to do with young girls who physically mature early.

I am so glad that I am not on the board that has to make this decision. Because there is no easy answer that will keep everybody happy.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[yume]

Alina is already physically mature.​

Last season, it wasn't that a 15 year old girl was competing in Seniors and winning everything that was making me uncomfortable. Hey, I thought it was a great achievement.

The thing that was making me uncomfortable was that this 15 year old girl already had a womanly figure... and was making the most of it.

It may be socially acceptable for a 17, 18 or 19 year old teenage girl to make the most of her assets, but it is definitely not socially acceptable for a 15 or 16 year old teenage girl to do so.

And therein lies the paradox. People don't want young girls to be in Seniors because they are not as mature in terms of their skating. But, people also don't want young girls who have physically matured at an earlier age to be in Juniors because it brings a sexual undertone to a competition that is supposed to be for children.

So, what are we supposed to do with them?!

CaroLiza_fan

Personally, I don't really understand the issue.
If girls who have physically matured at an earlier age and who skate in juniors are a problem, why to allow 18yo and 19yo girls who have a mature bodies to compete with 13yo girls in juniors?

 

[gkelly]

Basically a good solution would be getting judges to score PCs correctly, so a skater with high TES does not automatically get 9s,

Yes.

And also, perhaps, set up the Scale of Values and Well-Balanced Program rules and PCS factoring so that rotations in the air (which are the main area where younger teen female skaters have an advantage over older ones) are not worth so much as to override other technical as well as performance skills.

 

[moriel]

Yes.

And also, perhaps, set up the Scale of Values and Well-Balanced Program rules and PCS factoring so that rotations in the air (which are the main area where younger teen female skaters have an advantage over older ones) are not worth so much as to override other technical as well as performance skills.

Or just put more weight on other elements, such as spins and step sequences and so on. because currently their scores are not comparable.
Dunno, maybe something like this (maybe tweaking the requirements a bit to make it harder so not all top seniors can get a lv4 on everything) - a lv 4 is worth same as a quad, lv 3 worth same as a triple and so on.
Imho this would balance out stuff for skaters who cannot do 4 rotations, and encourage skaters to perfect their other skills.

 

[madmax]

In 1920s an italian cyclist, Alfredo Binda, was so dominant that in 1930 the organizers of the Giro d'Italia paid him the equivalent of the winner's prize not to start because it ruined the suspense of the race.

Maybe in our days ISU might pay the talented russian ladies to stay for a few years in junior category :giveup:

 

[gkelly]

Maybe in our days ISU might pay the talented russian ladies to stay for a few years in junior category :giveup:

Ha.

But that would ruin the suspense in juniors, except to the extent that if there are multiple talented Russian ladies all capable of winning in seniors, there would be suspense as to which one of them will win in juniors if they're all forced to stay there. And more to the point, it would create an even larger skill gap between the top juniors who are ready for seniors and the top juniors who are competing junior because they're not ready (even if they are over 15, or 16 or 17 as the case may be).

Which is why I think there could be value in having a separate event for the best female jumpers in the world, with a lower age limit (e.g., 13+) separate from both the well-balanced senior event and the well-balanced junior event.

It could also reward non-jump skills, because a lot of those girls are very good at other skills as well.

I don't love dividing strictly by age because different individuals mature at different rates, physically and technically and artistically. However, for any individual skater the jumping ability probably peaks earlier than the skating and performance ability.

 

[karakaka]

Or just put more weight on other elements, such as spins and step sequences and so on. because currently their scores are not comparable.
Dunno, maybe something like this (maybe tweaking the requirements a bit to make it harder so not all top seniors can get a lv4 on everything) - a lv 4 is worth same as a quad, lv 3 worth same as a triple and so on.
Imho this would balance out stuff for skaters who cannot do 4 rotations, and encourage skaters to perfect their other skills.

Well based on the proposed sov, it looks like a +5 GOE stsq4 (3.9+1.95) will be worth less than what a +3 GOE stsq4 (3.9+2.1) was awarded last season. So uh, yeah.

 

[synteis]

Well based on the proposed sov, it looks like a +5 GOE stsq4 (3.9+1.95) will be worth less than what a +3 GOE stsq4 (3.9+2.1) was awarded last season. So uh, yeah.

Ughhhhh. This is definitely not the direction that I want them going in :noshake:

Ideally:
1. Better PCS judging so that consistency and jumps do not automatically equal 9s.
2. StSq and spin level 4s being judged harshly so that they're not automatically given based on reputation and top 10 status.
2. SoV which rewards level 4+5 GOE spins and StSq enough to be big factors in the comp.

And then we can have 15 year olds competing with vicious tech which challenges and pushes older seniors while the seniors with slightly less strong tech but substantially improved transitions, SSs, performance skills, etc are pushing the younger skaters to develop their SSs, spins, StSqs, performance skills, etc and we all win.

I would prefer not to have skaters who are only around for one glorious season too but I also don't want to see the sport regress because the technical envelope isn't being pushed and the older skaters are losing their tech without being forced to up their PCS/StSqs to remain competitive.

 

[moriel]

At this point, I only want ISU to stop smoking whatever they are smoking and stop drinking whatever they are drinking and just try to be minimally rational and logical.
and THEN make decisions.
Whoever gave them drugs should get a spank.

 

[tars]

At this point, I only want ISU to stop smoking whatever they are smoking and stop drinking whatever they are drinking and just try to be minimally rational and logical.
and THEN make decisions.
Whoever gave them drugs should get a spank.

They need some milk!

 

[sweetice]

They need some milk!

http://images.mentalfloss.com/sites...c/clockwork.jpg?itok=JUEE11nA&resize=1100x619

 

[RafaelAstro]

I hope they change the age to compete in senior, from 15 to 19 years old and also I hope they change the way how they evaluate the PCS, remember Alina got PCS bonus from 66 to 75

 

[Katie0906]

Can you guys stop complaining about alina's pcs boost because your idols are getting high pcs too with a disaster program.

 

[bladesofwar]

No please no. Everyone should be allowed to have a fair shot at going to the olympics and other senior events.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Can you guys stop complaining about alina's pcs boost because your idols are getting high pcs too with a disaster program.

Haha..true. Just a little case of selective reasoning

 

[karne]

I hope they change the age to compete in senior, from 15 to 19 years old and also I hope they change the way how they evaluate the PCS, remember Alina got PCS bonus from 66 to 75

19, are you insane? That is beyond ridiculous. You do realise that Yuna Kim would have been age-ineligible for Vancouver if it had been 19?

 

[RafaelAstro]

Sorry my bad, 20 is better

 

[karne]

Sorry my bad, 20 is better

Oh. I see. Troll.

 

[RafaelAstro]

no kidding, I don´t see a problem with the age change, I mean many skaters can't do well after puberty and they only shine as 3 seasons maximum in level senior., maybe 18 is more reasonable. But I think the worst problem right now is how they evaluate the PCS and the TES, because judges are so inconsistent and generous with some skaters

 

[flanker]

SOmetimes there is an argument about "longevity shining star Carolina Kostner". I like her, but the truth is that she is top italian skater because Italy hed no other lady who would be better or the same. And Carolina herself started her first senior season when? By the age of 15...
One of the reasons why there is so many rotation in russian ladies is just that there is A LOT of skaters who are trying to do their best to get on top, so none of them can consider her place on the top as secure. And about the wounds and so on. There are many injuries among many skaters from other countries too, but as the field of skaters is so sparse (one or two top skaters and than huge gap and than the rest) they don't need to be afraid when they miss a season or a part of it, they can easily continue from where they ended. Among russian ladies, there is no such gap between the top skaters and the rest, so everybody can be easily replaced. That is what can make their life as a star short, not the age. So I'm completely against raising the age, at least till I hear some logical reasons given for it (just like the russian skating union said).