World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

[gsk8]

World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

How the new ISU age eligibility rules affect pair skating Newly-minted World Junior Pair Skating Champions Sophia Baram and Daniel Tioumentsev (USA) shone this season, but they will disappear from […]

www.goldenskate.com

"The skating community has to find a way to put in place a solution to keep the existing pair teams together, said Bruno Marcotte. "If there is no opportunity for these teams (to compete), I don't see how any of them can survive. Because of the nature of our discipline, when a boy starts doing pairs, it's safer for the team if the boy is teamed up with someone much smaller, and that is why we see many teams with an age gap in the novice and junior level."

The ISU will have a meeting at Worlds, so here's hoping they can find a quick solution or exception to the current rule!

 

[midori green]

I find it noteworthy that the pairs from USA and Japan would have had one year of age intelligibility even with the old rules. This doesn't change the arguments for or against different age rules for pairs vs singles. I suppose they planned for one year, not three. There are singles skaters who just miss the age cutoff with the new rules, and that's seen as unfortunate. The issue here is that while the younger partner is young enough to "wait their turn", the older partner is seen as missing their chance. I watched jr pairs this season and enjoy the teams listed in the article. The best option is complicated, but I think the fact some pairs were already going to have a "year off" adds another factor. Will they have to have that one year somewhere? Will the older ones get to stay in juniors? Will the younger ones get to move up to seniors? I'm interested to see how it all works out. Were they already looking into raising the junior age for men for development purposes before the age rule change?

 

[cheerknithanson]

I for one say raising the age max for male pairs skaters to 23 is a terrible idea.

 

[el henry]

Interesting article, good to see the thoughts of current pairs coaches.

I am not so much a fan of "finding a solution" to the current rule, as I like the current rule.

The age rule was put into place for concern and safety of young skaters. I do not believe those young (for the most part women) skaters should get a "pass" into seniors just because the man and woman have large age differences. I am especially put off by the coach's "explanations" that the inordinate age differences are required because young men need tiny partners. That makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.

I suppose grandfathering them into junior eligibility could work.

Here's another idea: maybe increase the points and rewards for pairs elements that don't favor tiny partners? Let pairs of almost the same age skate together.

But that will never happen, ISU will take the easy way out and grandfather these teams.....

 

[Ivana]

I'm torn on this, even if the intention is to find a way for the exisiting couples, once you start with exceptions you are pretty much setting up a rule. The Junior World Champions would have to sit out a year anyway, as she would have been too young for seniors and he would have been too old for juniors, so while a year and three is undeniably a difference it's not like they did not have to count with either splitting and looking for other more age-wise appropriate partners or sitting out a season. While I can understand the logic behind setting up such a pairings from the athlete development point that both Bruno and Rico mention, having a seven year gap at this age opens up a whole another can of worms that maybe it's time to finally close with the age rule change.

 

[Ziotic]

these issues came up in the pairs thread from JW and the reality is we’ve seen enough young pairs women taken advantage of that the age gap needs to be addressed.

Making exceptions is not the answer.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I'll expand on why I think having them not being 23 before July 1 is a terrible idea since I'm at a computer now. I'm thinking about this in terms of education milestones first of all. Someone who is 22-23 is finishing up college/university (Normally, I understand some people take longer, but this is for a point). Now if they're paired up with someone that's say, in their first half of high school (Ages 14-16), it's kind of weird. I understand the height differences. But the thing is that people think that height differences in ice dance are ideal too. I understand that the lifts are easier when the guy is much taller, but there has to be a better solution than thinking the age differences shouldn't be fixed in some way. And sometimes (I know people are getting married and having kids older now, but this is for comparison purposes) people at 23 are getting married and starting families. And to think that someone at 22-23 might still be in juniors where there are 13 year old...it's really weird.

 

[Jeanie19]

these issues came up in the pairs thread from JW and the reality is we’ve seen enough young pairs women taken advantage of that the age gap needs to be addressed.

Making exceptions is not the answer.

And it's not fair to make an exception because a team has to wait. There are many women skaters that the age cutoff hurts them for 2026 Olympics. . Mao Shimada has to wait to go senior , no exceptions for her. Plus I disagree that it's okay for a much older man to Skate with a young partner. 7 years is a lot. 22 to 15 is much different than 29-22.

 

[cheerknithanson]

And it's not fair to make an exception because a team has to wait. There are many women skaters that the age cutoff hurts them for 2026 Olympics. . Mao Shimada has to wait to go senior , no exceptions for her. Plus I disagree that it's okay for a much older man to Skate with a young partner. 7 years is a lot. 22 to 15 is much different than 29-22.

I feel like they're going to make the age min 17 for seniors, they should raise the age min for juniors to 14.

 

[Seven Sisters]

Since there are so few pairs, and since we all like pairs (and dance teams) to stay together if possible, I approve of trying to tweak the eligibility rules in a way that supports healthy development of that discipline.

To me the least desirable option would be to allow early entry into seniors for teams where the younger partner is not age-eligible yet. Keeping mixed-age pairs in juniors, which is the developmental level, seems like the better option.

As our friend El Henry suggests, tweaking the scoring to dis-incentivize elements that require the greater upper body strength of a more mature male partner and a relatively smaller female partner would also help.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I hope a beneficial solution is worked out. The issue for this sport is that those running the ISU tend to be pushed into making certain rules changes largely in response to public scandals and other events that happen. Instead, they should be getting ahead of events, and making the right changes for the right reasons, in a timely way.

It's not like they shouldn't have already realized and taken into account how the new rule would affect many juniors, especially pairs and dance teams with significant age gaps. These issues should have been considered and made allowances for before the new rule was instituted. But nope, ISU are short-sighted, and the member federations all have conflicting interests and motivations. The ISU rushed the new rule in specifically in response to the Olympic scandal to make it look like they were fixing the problem, not to actually correct the real problems with young competitors competing as seniors. The age limit issue has existed for years, and the ISU has gone back and forth on it, indecisively.

My view is that for sure there needs to be some rules in place, and more attention paid to the needs of young skaters, and to the concerns of all skaters. The age limit issue for me is complicated because I think some young people are more confident and able to handle competition pressures than others their age. Blanket ages are not always the determining factor or measure of maturity. It also depends on the character of coaches, and the family support, training environment, etc. Thus, every situation varies.

In particular, with pairs, if the male partner is older and it's a good partnership with good coaches who aren't unduly harsh and aggressive, then possibly 15 or 16 is okay to compete in seniors. In the past, 13 and 14 year olds were allowed to compete in seniors. I recall reading that Cecilia Colledge, of Great Britain, was 11 at her first World championships. But that was a different time.

 

[gsk8]

The only fix I see is increasing the age limit for the men. At least this would allow teams to compete on the Junior level until the woman is old enough for the senior level.

One of the problems is that the younger men (boys) are not strong enough physically to do some of the elements, like the lifts. Women grow faster than the men at puberty.

 

[surimi]

In particular, with pairs, if the male partner is older and it's a good partnership with good coaches who aren't unduly harsh and aggressive, then possibly 15 or 16 is okay to compete in seniors. In the past, 13 and 14 year olds were allowed to compete in seniors.

But if that 15-year-old is admitted to seniors, and the same thing happens that caused the latest Olympic scandal? That issue has happened to two pair girls recently, though in one case at least it was all resolved favorably in a matter of months. But in the light of that possibility, I can see the ISU allowing a 23-year-old in juniors (a fully grown man - kind of unfair to boys under 20) rather than the other way round.

 

[Amei]

Its quite a pickle the ISU has here, on 1 hand pairs is a struggling discipline but on the other hand they claim to be making changes to 'protect' athletes raising the age limit - well I don't know if allowing exceptions for pairs/ice dance teams that have someone either too young for seniors or too old for juniors is really a great answer. And if they really are interested in 'protecting' athletes then they shouldn't be making exceptions that are going to encourage a large age discrepancy in partners.

Ideally it would probably be great if teams were all required to be within 2-3 years age of each other.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I for one say raising the age max for male pairs skaters to 23 is a terrible idea.

Why do you think this is a 'terrible idea' though? I think this should be carefully monitored, and not taken unfair advantage of. But I can't disagree that some skaters start pairs later, and thus may need more time to develop in juniors. If they approach any adjustments to the age-limit rules thoughtfully and advisedly, I don't see the downside, especially if it helps to broaden the talent, depth, and opportunities for skaters in the pairs discipline.

 

[surimi]

One of the problems is that the younger men (boys) are not strong enough physically to do some of the elements, like the lifts. Women grow faster than the men at puberty.

It would be great if the element values compensated for that. No quads in juniors' SP and no 3A in junior women's SP is already in effect in order to protect young athletes, so why not a few tweaks in junior pairs if they were to allow men over 20 to compete alongside teenagers.

 

[Seven Sisters]

Why do you this is a 'terrible idea' though? I think this should be carefully monitored, and not taken unfair advantage of. But I can't disagree that some skaters start pairs later, and thus may need more time to develop in juniors. If they approach any adjustments to the age-limit rules thoughtfully and advisedly, I don't see the downside, especially if it helps to broaden the talent, depth, and opportunities for skaters in the pairs discipline.

I think the concern would arise if, for example, you had a fully mature male skater late 20s-early 30s being paired with a 13-14 year old girl half his age. That seems like an unhealthy dynamic.

That’s not what is happening with Sonia and Daniel, of course. They both seem like kids to me!

 

[RafaelAstro]

Why there are pairs with such big age gaps between the skaters in the first place? They should make a rule for that in juniors to prevent this

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

But if that 15-year-old is admitted to seniors, and the same thing happens that caused the latest Olympic scandal? That issue has happened to two pair girls recently, though in one case at least it was all resolved favorably in a matter of months. But in the light of that possibility, I can see the ISU allowing a 23-year-old in juniors (a fully grown man - kind of unfair to boys under 20) rather than the other way round.

I think many of the issues you are referencing have to do with coaching abuses, and in general, exploitation of underage skaters, as well as abuse toward skaters of all ages. This is an entire issue which for the most part, the sport has tried to avoid facing head-on. Thus, they need to separately address all the endemic issues of abuse on every level, including skater to skater abuses. Until they do what is needed holistically in all aspects of the sport, there will always be situations that happen, and overlapping concerns that patchwork rules changes will never remedy.

I understand your concern about 23 year old males being more mature and muscular than say 15 or 16 year old males. However, that situation already exists currently with 20 and 21 year old male pairs skaters competing against 15 and 16 year old male pairs skaters, though I would think many of the male pairs skaters' age ranges tend to be around 16 and higher.

OTOH, some guys mature quicker than others. Some guys have smaller frames and height than other guys. So age is not always the sole determining factor in how mature a skater is, or how muscular a skater is. Physical characteristics vary, not always based on age level.

 

[Amei]

The only fix I see is increasing the age limit for the men. At least this would allow teams to compete on the Junior level until the woman is old enough for the senior level.

One of the problems is that the younger men (boys) are not strong enough physically to do some of the elements, like the lifts. Women grow faster than the men at puberty.

But then the older men/boys competing on the junior level have an unfair advantage based on their age, wasn't 1 of the arguments made for raising the age limit for seniors was that females were doing things that relied on a tiny prepubescent body and that skaters would come into seniors at 15 win everything and retire because they couldn't compete any longer. It seems a bit hypocritical to prevent 1 set of athletes from having a competitive advantage based on their age but then allowing another set of athletes to have a competitive advantage based on their age.