World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

[midori green]

There are many junior pairs who perform nice lifts, even with ages that will allow both pairs to move up to seniors together. It's not like ONLY max age partners can lift min age partners.

 

[skatedreamer]

As for existing pairs who formed before the age change - I like watching them, but the ISU has to maintain some vestige of impartiality and bending the rules for a few top (mostly US) pairs would just give ammunition to those arguing that the age limit targeted Russian women specifically. If they can come up with a compromise to avoid hypocrisy without making those teams political sacrifices, then kudos to them.

Not just a "vestige" of impartiality: the ISU must be full-on impartial and objective.

I'd feel terrible for the pairs who are affected by the change, especially the US teams because I'm a Yank. However, I'd feel much worse if people thought they were given special consideration because that can only lead to resentment and ill feeling. IMO, whatever decision the ISU makes must be applied across the board or not at all -- even if it hurts the skaters I'm rooting for the most.

As a certain well-known US official likes to say: "without fear or favor!"

 

[gold12345]

I wonder how Baram/Tioumentsev were supposed to be aware. I see in their thread that they teamed up in the spring of 2021. The age was raised more than a year later. Perhaps those more knowledgeable will enlighten me how this pair supposedly knew in advance when, and if, the change would be greenlighted, even if it had been discussed for quite a while.
1 year of waiting out is nothing out of the ordinary, it happens for country switches as well, or for difficult injuries. 3 years... in a skater's words, 'The competitive life of a skater is short'. That is almost one full Olympic cycle, and most skaters stay around for just two.

Baram/Tioumentsev teamed up already knowing they would have to sit out of 2 years of international competition (this was even before the age change occurred). They sat out all of last season, and they knew they'd have to sit out next season or split. It's not uncommon for a pair to form for the purpose of Junior competition and then split because of age or whatever else. Partner shuffling is obviously very common in pairs and doesn't cause the discipline to go extinct. There are 23 pairs at Sr Worlds this year (would be 24 with a second deserving Italian pair); the discipline is alive and doesn't need large age gap Jr pairs (that may or may not pan out long-term) to sustain it.

It's a misconception that a young child needs an adult man to lift her safely. Look at Boikova/Kozlovskii, they are very close in age and teamed up as teenagers, and there never were issues with safety in lifts. Perhaps we need to lower the expectations for Jr level lifting; they don't need to be doing lasso lifts and triple twists.

Given the age has been raised to 17 for Srs, I think it makes some sense to raise the Jr max ages for pairs/dance by 2 years as well, so 23 instead of 21 for a man. At the same time, I don't think we should be doing more to encourage 14 year olds to skate with 21 year olds. In what other profession would a child be a coworker with an adult; it would be seen as very unhealthy for an 8th grader to interact daily with a college junior, especially in an intimate setting like a pair partnership (as opposed to a group of people). It can also create an unfair competitive advantage-- pairs shouldn't be a grown man lifting/throwing a prepubescent child around like a doll. This can also put pressure on the girl to stay "doll-like" instead of going through puberty in a healthy way. Since the man is already done growing, any growth issues are always "the girl's fault". It's never "the boy isn't getting tall enough" or "the boy is having a gangly growth spurt", it's always the girl's fault. I see how it can get unhealthy with the power dynamic of man skating with child.

If federations like the US followed the ISU age rules for domestic competitions, that may stop a large age gap pair from forming in the first place. It's not a necessity for a grown man to pair with a 13 yr old. It's done (but only rarely) because they're allowed to.

 

[yesterday]

It's not a necessity for a grown man to pair with a 13 yr old. It's done (but only rarely) because they're allowed to.

Well, I'd say they do it because they think it brings them an advantage (in addition).

 

[yume]

Thank you for the clarification!

Based on that, I support the 3 pairs formed before the age change waiting for one year, like they could expect they would, then joining one of the categories; seniors would now make more sense to me. They're the last remnants of the pre-age-change system, and forcing them to split or go domestic for 3 seasons sounds like a worse solution to me than having three under-17 girls in seniors one last time in 24/25 season. If an eye is kept on their well-being, I'm not sure how any harm could come out of that. But ISU should have considered this before the age change, not after.

I wonder, in this case, what ISU would say to justify blocking 14yo or 15yo (after july 1st) singles skaters in juniors, while those three would be allowed in seniors.
Them too had already planned their careers. Many skaters (and their feds) probably planned to compete in seniors next season. Or do both juniors and seniors like Kimmy Repond did. To compete at next olys.
That isn't possible anymore and they have to deal with all the competitive and financials consequences that come with it. But then they will see others get the opportunities that are denied to them. How ISU would explain that?

 

[lariko]

World Junior pairs champs caught in age conundrum

How the new ISU age eligibility rules affect pair skating Newly-minted World Junior Pair Skating Champions Sophia Baram and Daniel Tioumentsev (USA) shone this season, but they will disappear from […]

www.goldenskate.com

"The skating community has to find a way to put in place a solution to keep the existing pair teams together, said Bruno Marcotte. "If there is no opportunity for these teams (to compete), I don't see how any of them can survive. Because of the nature of our discipline, when a boy starts doing pairs, it's safer for the team if the boy is teamed up with someone much smaller, and that is why we see many teams with an age gap in the novice and junior level."

The ISU will have a meeting at Worlds, so here's hoping they can find a quick solution or exception to the current rule!

Of course, exceptions will be found, since Americans and Japanese are both impacted in the discipline they want to develop. It will be particularly advantageous for Japan because of how their male skaters are build.

Maybe then Chernyshova and Antonyshev can skate together because they just broke the pair specifically because of the age gap that stops them from competing next season.

 

[yume]

Maybe then Chernyshova and Antonyshev can skate together because they just broke the pair specifically because of the age gap that stops them from competing next season.

It will likely be impossible for them to compete next season because of:
1. The ban that will probably stay
2. The very few spots that would be available if the ban is lifted.

To be honest, i prefer them to split and try to find another partner closer to their age. Even if it takes time to build symbiosis. When i see what Kostornaia, who was a singles skater, was able to learn with Kunitsa in some months, i think everything can work.

 

[lariko]

It will likely be impossible for them to compete next season because of:
1. The ban that will probably stay
2. The very few spots that would be available if the ban is lifted.

To be honest, i prefer them to split and try to find another partner closer to their age. Even if it takes time to build symbiosis. When i see what Kostornaia, who was a singles skater, was able to learn with Kunitsa in some months, i think everything can work.

That ban will never end by the look of it, so I would have rather seen them skate nationally together. Antonyshev didn’t look like anything with 2 previous partners, including Osokina who now shines in a different partnership. Even in Russia, it is hard to get a partnership that finally clicks. I mean, look at Mironov’s ambling, despite obvious talent.

 

[snowflake]

Coaches and skaters just deal with it. Too late for new rules. Anyone could have raised the question when the new age rule was discussed. A new age rule has been on the agenda for years. Me thinks the coaches and skaters took a chance.

 

[Minz]

I think it’s a difficult situation.

On one hand, it’s not fair to make one partner wait and it’s not fair to just force them to find a new partner. But on other, it’s not necessarily fair that exceptions are made when others do have to wait.

And fixing the issue of age gaps isn’t really something that can just be done by a hard and fast rule (unless you just say that partners can only be X years apart from each other, which again, creates problems.

Regardless, there’s always going to be issues/problems and there’s no rule that can and/or will satisfy everyone.