Thoughts on U.S. skating talent

[sheetz]

i don't know if an olympian has ever competed in collegiates in the last couple decades.

Mirai did in 2015, beating out Angela Wang for the ladies title. The same year Richard Dornbush defeated Max Aaron and Alex Johnson in the men's division.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_co_champs/results.html

Currently there is a $5000 prize for the winners as well as prizes for the 2nd and 3rd place ladies.

 

[princessalica]

And I know Alissa Czisny never made it to the Olympics - she did wins collegiates twice. (She did win the grand prix final and several other gp medals, so I think it’s a relevant comparison.

 

[mrrice]

topic: I was just thinking about Courtney Hicks. How is she doing? I haven't heard much about her recently and I was wondering if she's planning to continue her career. Does anybody have information on her?

 

[princessalica]

She is still posting ice skating videos - one on May 9th saying its tango season @roheneward Looks like Rohene has choreographed one of her programs - no indication that I've seen that she is done.

 

[macy]

Mirai did in 2015, beating out Angela Wang for the ladies title. The same year Richard Dornbush defeated Max Aaron and Alex Johnson in the men's division.
http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_co_champs/results.html

Currently there is a $5000 prize for the winners as well as prizes for the 2nd and 3rd place ladies.

i didn't know there was prize money involved. does anyone know what the payouts are for gymnastics?

 

[ice coverage]

Apologies for the very long post! I've edited it a few times, but it doesn't get shorter. tl;dr: skip down to the bolded phrase ("A better question might be...") ...

Appreciated all of your post, ribbit.

Will add a couple of comments to things that you mentioned:

... And college-level skaters combine their training with their course schedules, internships, and possibly jobs. ...

:agree: Yes, even Mirai the Olympian would be an example of a collegiate skater who found a job to earn money.

We know that she had a job during the 2015-16 season.

https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?38037-Mirai-Nagasu&p=1968544&viewfull=1#post1968544​

She started the 2015-16 season by winning U.S. Collegiates; near the end of her season, she won the silver at Four Continents. (And then competed at Worlds too.)

... As other posters have said, college-level competition does not have to be sanctioned by the NCAA. USFS already organizes the U.S. Collegiate Championships (for intermediate, novice, junior, and senior singles and junior and senior dance and pairs) …

2017 was the first year that Collegiates was expanded to include intermediate and novice.
Which I take as a positive sign that USFS would like to encourage growth of collegiate skating.

... Should USFS hire a college-skating social media coordinator to run Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram feeds and travel to competitions or solicit video submissions to look for the next "Whip My Hair"? ...

BTW, the USFS Collegiate Committee has its own Facebook page, which is quite active and which I enjoy looking at from time to time.

https://www.facebook.com/US-Figure-Skating-Collegiate-Committee-153175814722275/​

From what I as an outsider can perceive, its purpose is to be a resource (including competition coverage) and social media hub for the collegiate/intercollegiate skating community … without a hard-core focus on marketing (such as a deliberate quest for a viral video).
Although its scope is not exactly what ribbit is talking about, I take the FB page as another sign that USFS is supportive of collegiate/intercollegiate skating talking about.

---

i didn't know there was prize money involved. ...

Technically, it is scholarship money, AFAIK?
(A distinction that I think does matter to the IRS? And if the NCAA were involved (although it is not), I think it would matter to the NCAA?)

Don't get me wrong, the opportunity to earn any money -- no matter what it is called, and no matter how limited the amounts and how few the recipients -- is one of the good things about Collegiates.
But as I said in a previous post, most of the skaters at Collegiates are competing for love of the sport.

---

ETA (on Jun 1):

USFS offers a four-year collegiate membership package, at less than half the regular cost.
https://www.usfigureskating.org/membership​

 

[VegMom]

One model we might want to look at is tennis. Tennis used to be very elitist. But now there are tons of courts all over and the pool of young players is much bigger. They deliberately tried to expand tennis and make it more accessible. Perhaps something like this could be done for figure skating.

Within walking distance from my home, there are at least 10 tennis courts, 5 basketball courts, 8 softball or baseball diamonds, 3 or 4 volleyball courts, two large lap pools, tons of bike trails and jogging trails, and fields for various other sports. Yet the nearest ice rink is a 40 minute drive. There are clear practical reasons that rinks aren't as common as things like tennis courts, for instance it costs a lot of money to run an ice rink. But I think that if there were more rinks - at least in every metropolitan area - there would be more skaters. I expect that technological advances will decrease the costs and thus increase the number of rinks over the next few decades. But we're not there yet.

There are many young female skaters at my rink that are very passionate about skating. The problem is they don't know how to guide their own practice. Maybe it'll develop over time but right now they are wasting their time looking at each other trying to figure out what they are supposed to be doing. Ballet is the opposite in that regard. A typical ballet class takes you through the full range with each exercise building upon each other.

The russian school is collectivism versus individualism.

I agree that this style might be beneficial for some skaters. And in fact the rink my skater uses there are these mini classes that help focus the skaters. They are low cost and open to a wide range of ability. They are only about 20 minutes and the skaters pay a nominal fee for each class rather than having to sign up months at a time. It's very helpful.
And it seems to me that this is how most of the camps function - like being trained by a team of coaches.

But a good coach should guide students on what to do during practice when they don't have a coach. My skater's coach gives him specific instructions and I see other skaters take notes and make lists of things to practice. My skater has been told to make a practice checklist to go through each time (he has the list but doesn't always do it). My skater and some of his friends also take videos of themselves and watch the videos to learn how to improve. And they look at the marks they make in the ice. And they coach each other by sharing tips and showing off. There are some apps too that can be used - I think there's a low end version of dart fish and some other apps too. I'm just sharing these ideas in case there are skate parents whose kids need some direction.

Different sports have different cultures. Skateboarding is similar to figure skating in the fact that kids need to be self-motivated to learn and grow, no one is really going to push them to do it in the US in the way that say, a swim coach or basketball coach will push the kids to do drills and practice practice practice. Ballet has a highly structured, constantly supervised culture that does develop lots of talent, but that doesn't mean it's the best or most effective culture. I know personally that my kid bristles at the idea of ballet precisely because of the culture of it. He is athletic enough to do all kinds of sports, but it's the culture of certain sports that he's most attracted to - the freedom of figure skating is extremely appealing to him. The structure and lack of creativity of many team sports is not appealing to him at all. I say, for instance, that if he learned soccer in Brazil he'd probably like it a ton more than how he feels about it here in the US. He loves kicking the ball around and making goals but the intense competition and lack of flair/style/creativity in American soccer is not appealing to him.

So I guess I'm just trying to say that some changes to how figure skating is taught and developed in the US might increase the pool of talent but it would also change the culture of the sport.

 

[Cindy1983]

I think group lessons at every level could balance the price of lessons. Private lessons would be for those that need extra lessons because they're really good.

Even though running a rink takes $ there could be ways around it like nonprofits and stuff.

In skating, like gymnastics, it seems like there is a favoured body type. You very rarely see skaters who are short and stocky which is different than being fat (e.g. Rachael Flat) or tall (e.g. Carolina Kostner). The only difference is that floor and vault events in gymnastics give stockier girls 'power events' to do. In skating, it seems like the taller girls are pushed into ice dance which makes no sense because taller girls with longer limbs can hit beautiful lines. This limits the pool as well.

I never expected this thread to be so active. I started it to balance out some of the negativity on this forum. I'm a bit flabbergasted.

 

[gkelly]

I think group lessons at every level could balance the price of lessons. Private lessons would be for those that need extra lessons because they're really good.

This can be an issue at small rinks where everybody is at different levels working on different skills. At best, you could have a bunch of skaters in class at the same time with an instructor who would go around giving private attention to each student a few minutes at a time.

Everybody needs instruction to learn new skills. If you're learning something new that nobody else needs to learn at that time (because they've already learned it or aren't ready to learn yet), then you need private attention.

When there are more skaters at the same level, then you can have a real class with a consistent curriculum for everyone including introducing new skills to the whole group at the same time, or the introductory instruction to those just learning it can serve as reminders for those still working on mastering it.

When it comes to practicing skills you already know but that need repetitions and improvement, then the coach can just watch and give corrections as needed. There can be group exercises of stroking patterns for their own sake or as jump setups where skaters can adapt specifics to their own skill level (some do three turns and some do brackets; some do single jumps and some do doubles).

I imagine something like several general levels of group lessons that may be enough for skaters who get what they need from those lessons and less unsupervised practice time. Then there could be private lessons available during the practice sessions for skaters who need extra help picking up a new skill, harness time for new jumps, putting together programs, or for skaters who just want to move up faster either in tests or in competition placements.

There could be a distinction between class time when everyone works on essentially the same thing at the same time, and supervised practice where each skater does their own thing with coaches looking on and responsible for giving feedback as needed. My concern about the latter would be that everyone would be paying the same fee but some skaters would end up getting more attention than others.

In skating, like gymnastics, it seems like there is a favoured body type. You very rarely see skaters who are short and stocky which is different than being fat (e.g. Rachael Flat) or tall (e.g. Carolina Kostner). The only difference is that floor and vault events in gymnastics give stockier girls 'power events' to do. In skating, it seems like the taller girls are pushed into ice dance which makes no sense because taller girls with longer limbs can hit beautiful lines. This limits the pool as well.

I won't even get into the issues with referring to Rachael Flatt as "fat." :disagree:

More compact skaters tend to rotate better than tall skaters with long limbs. That's why tall skaters often max out on jumps sooner and are more likely to go into ice dance where their body type can be an advantage technically and aesthetically. If they can't master triple jumps their choices are to remain a recreational singles skater, switch disciplines, or quit skating.

 

[ribbit]

In skating, like gymnastics, it seems like there is a favoured body type. You very rarely see skaters who are short and stocky which is different than being fat (e.g. Rachael Flat) or tall (e.g. Carolina Kostner). The only difference is that floor and vault events in gymnastics give stockier girls 'power events' to do. In skating, it seems like the taller girls are pushed into ice dance which makes no sense because taller girls with longer limbs can hit beautiful lines. This limits the pool as well.

I never expected this thread to be so active. I started it to balance out some of the negativity on this forum. I'm a bit flabbergasted.

I won't even get into the issues with referring to Rachael Flatt as "fat." :disagree:

I was just thinking that one step toward balancing out negativity, here or elsewhere, would be not referring to an extremely accomplished athlete whose body type happens not to align perfectly with some people's ideals as "fat". Body-shaming accomplishes nothing positive and much that is negative.

 

[elbkup]

topic: I was just thinking about Courtney Hicks. How is she doing? I haven't heard much about her recently and I was wondering if she's planning to continue her career. Does anybody have information on her?

Courtney was mentioned in the Jason Brown FF Post # 10748 referencing an interview with TSL as possibly training at 7K under Kori Ade...

 

[Cindy1983]

This can be an issue at small rinks where everybody is at different levels working on different skills. At best, you could have a bunch of skaters in class at the same time with an instructor who would go around giving private attention to each student a few minutes at a time.

Everybody needs instruction to learn new skills. If you're learning something new that nobody else needs to learn at that time (because they've already learned it or aren't ready to learn yet), then you need private attention.

When there are more skaters at the same level, then you can have a real class with a consistent curriculum for everyone including introducing new skills to the whole group at the same time, or the introductory instruction to those just learning it can serve as reminders for those still working on mastering it.

When it comes to practicing skills you already know but that need repetitions and improvement, then the coach can just watch and give corrections as needed. There can be group exercises of stroking patterns for their own sake or as jump setups where skaters can adapt specifics to their own skill level (some do three turns and some do brackets; some do single jumps and some do doubles).

I imagine something like several general levels of group lessons that may be enough for skaters who get what they need from those lessons and less unsupervised practice time. Then there could be private lessons available during the practice sessions for skaters who need extra help picking up a new skill, harness time for new jumps, putting together programs, or for skaters who just want to move up faster either in tests or in competition placements.

There could be a distinction between class time when everyone works on essentially the same thing at the same time, and supervised practice where each skater does their own thing with coaches looking on and responsible for giving feedback as needed. My concern about the latter would be that everyone would be paying the same fee but some skaters would end up getting more attention than others.

I would work it the way most martial arts classes would work. In MA, intermediate only means a certian belt level. The classes usually have a mix of levels. Typically, the higher belts help the lower while learning thier skills, esp if they are black belts. This would be good esp if it were in exchange for help with expenses for those who need it.

I was just thinking that one step toward balancing out negativity, here or elsewhere, would be not referring to an extremely accomplished athlete whose body type happens not to align perfectly with some people's ideals as "fat". Body-shaming accomplishes nothing positive and much that is negative.

I used the term stocky to mean small, muscular, powerful and athletic, not fat. That's why I say it's different than being fat (referring to the amt of adipose tissue one has). It was a positive. I'd think this body type would be a powerful jumper.

 

[ice coverage]

I was just thinking that one step toward balancing out negativity, here or elsewhere, would be not referring to an extremely accomplished athlete whose body type happens not to align perfectly with some people's ideals as "fat". Body-shaming accomplishes nothing positive and much that is negative.

… I used the term stocky to mean small, muscular, powerful and athletic, not fat. That's why I say it's different than being fat (referring to the amt of adipose tissue one has). It was a positive. I'd think this body type would be a powerful jumper.

Cindy, you are misunderstanding what people are reacting to.

In your earlier post (which ribbit quoted in full), you outright named a skater who you believe is an example of being "fat."

Some of us found your fat-shaming of the named skater to be clearly negative … and unacceptable.

I agree with ribbit.

 

[andromache]

You are misunderstanding why you are receiving criticism.

In your earlier post, you outright named a skater who you believe is an example of being "fat."

Not to mention that the skater mentioned would probably not come ANYWHERE close to being considered overweight by any normal medical standard.

 

[NanaPat]

I think Cindy meant that the named skater was an example of "athletically built" skaters, not that she was fat. The wording was unfortunate. The fat refereed to "athletically built" is NOT fat, not the skater.

At least that's what I thought she meant to say.

 

[corinthia]

I used the term stocky to mean small, muscular, powerful and athletic, not fat. That's why I say it's different than being fat (referring to the amt of adipose tissue one has). It was a positive. I'd think this body type would be a powerful jumper.

Cindy, it sounds like maybe your intent was to use Rachel as an example of somebody stocky? Something like the followkng maybe?

...very rarely see skaters who are short and stocky (e.g. Rachael Flat) or tall (e.g. Carolina Kostner).

But that isn't what you wrote. With your emphasis on stocky not being the same as fat, the following is the sentence you actually wrote:

You very rarely see skaters who are short and stocky which is different than being fat (e.g. Rachael Flat) or tall (e.g. Carolina Kostner).

which reads like you are using Rachel as someone who is fat. I believe that is why people are upset.

 

[acapenci]

Cindy was using that skater as an example of a skater who is not frail and willowy and not fat, but has a more average, athletic body type

 

[oatmella]

Besides the questionable wording - I don’t think it’s all that rare to see skaters who have a shorter and more athletic/compact body type?

 

[Ice Dance]

More compact skaters tend to rotate better than tall skaters with long limbs. That's why tall skaters often max out on jumps sooner and are more likely to go into ice dance where their body type can be an advantage technically and aesthetically. If they can't master triple jumps their choices are to remain a recreational singles skater, switch disciplines, or quit skating.

In gymnastics there really are different body types for "flippers" and "twisters." Flippers are built more like Rachel or Shoma. Typically compact and stocky. (Simone Biles, Kim Zmeskal, Kerri Strug). These are typical flipper bodies. Power tumblers. (The Power Packs--Bela used to call them). They excel at double somersaults. Twisters, though, are typically slender and willowy. They can be itty bitty like Patricia Moreno, who introduced the first 3 1/2 twist on floor, of medium height like Amy Chow, or on the tall side, like Betty Okino, Simona Amanar, or Svetlana Khorkina.

Of course, in gymnastics, one must--to some extent--find a balance between both. One must be able to both flip and twist. It's just very, very clear that certain body types excel at particular skills one way or the other. And athletes maximize elements that use their strength because that is the best way for them to get to the top.

 

[Cindy1983]

Cindy, you are misunderstanding what people are reacting to.

In your earlier post (which ribbit quoted in full), you outright named a skater who you believe is an example of being "fat."

Some of us found your fat-shaming of the named skater to be clearly negative … and unacceptable.

I agree with ribbit.

That's not what I said. I said small and stocky (which I define (the word stocky) as powerful, athletic, muscular and strong), which is why I said it was different from beind fat. It's a build and the way a person is put together. BTW, HERE'S the definition of stocky.
https://www.bing.com/search?pc=TTFF&form=AMZNS5&q=stocky

***Pats herelf on back***