TSL interview with Ilia Malinin

[Tahuu]

That is my point exactlty. At the Olympic Games the skaters will not be judged by how well they performed at 2022 U,S, Nationals. They will be judged by what they put on the ice in Beijing. In a month we will know how Jason skated. We will never know what Ilia might have done.

Head-to-head should trump anything else. It's a direct indication who is a better skater now.

 

[lariko]

Head-to-head should trump anything else. It's a direct indication who is a better skater now.

Please, send this memo to RusFed.

 

[el henry]

Head-to-head should trump anything else. It's a direct indication who is a better skater now.

And that is exactly what USFS sought to avoid with their criteria.

The document made clear that placements at Nats would not be the final or even most weighed element. They were not treating Nats like an Olympic trials.

So whatever should happen, USFS made clear that would not happen. They actually made the decision within an hour after the end of the men's comp, and waited two hours for the gala to announce publicly.

As nerve-wracking as I found that, I feel sorry for fans of the Russian men, with no document that I know of, still waiting on a decision.

 

[lariko]

As nerve-wracking as I found that, I feel sorry for fans of the Russian men, with no document that I know of, still waiting on a decision.

In fairness, I think the hold up is not Mozalenko, it's the comp in the team. I am pretty sure, if it was just Mozalenko, we'd have had the decision on Saturday. It just wouldn’t have been the one I want to hear. Their criteria is, the latest gold and silver go, the third is the guy who we think is the best of the lot.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The document made clear that placements at Nats would not be the final or even most weighed element.

What is the most weighed element?

 

[el henry]

What is the most weighed element?

I don't see anything in the document that weighs one element more than another element. So that if a skater was ahead in three out of four elements, that would prevail. There was no language that I saw, for example, that would say "Well Nats was head to head. Well Nats is more high pressure. Well, Nats is more recent (that would be captured in trends)." So weighing Nats more heavily for those reasons, as was I think argued in the post I replied to, was not captured in the document language.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't see anything in the document that weighs one element more than another element. So that if a skater was ahead in three out of four elements, that would prevail. There was no language that I saw, for example, that would say "Well Nats was head to head. Well Nats is more high pressure. Well, Nats is more recent (that would be captured in trends)." So weighing Nats more heavily for those reasons, as was I think argued in the post I replied to, was not captured in the document language.

It's a shame that, given the length of the document, there is a lack of clarity on these things. There's also a lot of inconsistency; while it staes Nationals scores won't be compared to international ones, the Nationals score is a factor (with other international scores) to determine the direction of trending scores.

 

[ladyjane]

Isn't this thread about the interview with Ilia, not about the Olympic choices - there are already 2 threads on this forum about that. I know some of you have tried to get the thread back on track but somehow the whole Olympic thing keeps coming back. Well, I'm fed up with that particular issue. I have my opinion, you can find it there.

I for one liked this interview - but then I've liked Ilia as an enthusiastic 'young gun' all along. I've read earlier interviews with him. He looks to be a fun boy who enjoys life, loves to skate and jump, is willing to learn more, and is also very ambitious for himself. Lucky USA to have such a star in the making!

 

[ice coverage]

... TSL is substantiating Ilia and that is not what he needs. ...

I don't know what substantiating means, but to substantiate is to provide evidence or proof of something. I assume substantiating is present participle of that - providing proof or evidence/in process of providing proof or evidence/continually providing proof or evidence?

CSG's specific usage of "substantiating" is what I did and do not understand.

What is "TSL is substantiating Ilia" supposed to mean?
If TSL supposedly is providing proof or evidence of something with respect to Ilia, then proof or evidence of what???

As I said before, Ilia was/is a totally legitimate subject for an interview.
At his first Senior nationals, he won the silver medal -- by a twelve-point margin over the bronze medalist.

(The interview was not about Olympic team selection.)

---

It's a shame that, given the length of the document, there is a lack of clarity on these things. There's also a lot of inconsistency; while it staes Nationals scores won't be compared to international ones, the Nationals score is a factor (with other international scores) to determine the direction of trending scores.

Yes, I agree that the USFS document could have used more clarity.

"The IC Discipline Subcommittees’ primary focus to determine the 2022 U.S. Olympic Team for figure skating will be based on three qualities: competitiveness, consistency and trending scores. A brief description of these three qualities follows: ...

Trending scores will be based on scores achieved at the identified international events in 1.2.1. and how they escalate or deescalate through those events. The 2022 Toyota U.S. Figure Skating Championships will be the final score evaluated for trending scores."

 

[lariko]

Isn't this thread about the interview with Ilia, not about the Olympic choices - there are already 2 threads on this forum about that. I know some of you have tried to get the thread back on track but somehow the whole Olympic thing keeps coming back. We;;, I'm fed up with that particular issue. I have my opinion, you can find it there.

I for one liked this interview - but then I've liked Ilia as an enthusiastic 'young gun' all along. I've read earlier interviews with him. He looks to be a fun boy who enjoys life, loves to skate and jump, is willing to learn more, and is also very ambitious for himself. Lucky USA to have such a star in the making!

I liked it too. JWC and WC in the same year will be epic for him.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Not sure where you heard this but that's not true at all and very clearly just wishful thinking from someone who dislikes TSL.

LOL! Even though it was not an order written in stone, it most certainly is true that US fed encouraged their skaters to avoid appearing on TSL during a certain period (and some skaters have never been on for their own personal reasons). Even Jenny herself was fed up with Dave on occasion. She would probably not admit to it publicly of course. Anyway, they made up some time ago, and she has come back intermittently. Dave was holding on by the skin of his teeth for a certain period. He's definitely a survivor. He refused to let go of the platform and the opportunity. He had to get friends of his to assist, and he eventually ended up with Jonathan hosting regularly. I've always felt these two guys are way too similar as co-hosts. There's not much contrast. Plus, Jonathan for a time tended to adhere to Dave's views, but more recently Jonathan has appeared to become comfortable and confident in developing his own voice. Both of them can be extremely annoying with their quirks, tendencies and indulgences. I don't watch TSL avidly. But since TSL is a prominent and longstanding outlet for figure skating news, I will watch episodes when I have time. When I do, I often scroll through the excess OTT personal chaff that I'm not interested in listening to.

Sure, relations between Dave and some U.S. skaters may have relaxed in recent years. I've noticed that Dave has tried to clean up some of his more annoying snark in an attempt to be a bit more professional. A few years back, when Frank Carroll retired, I posted on another forum the TSL interview that Dave and Jenny had done circa 2013 with Frank (it's available on YouTube). Soon afterward, I noticed that Dave acquired a number of interviews with top coaches. LOL! I guess many of these coaches hadn't been aware of the 2013 interview Frank had done with TSL. With Frank being a legendary coach and having given TSL that lengthy 2-part interview, it was a great calling card for Dave to get other big time coaches to give him interviews.

You are certainly entitled to your views, perceptions and beliefs. I've also heard privately from people with insider knowledge, so it is what it is. You and whoever else loves TSL can spin the situation however you please. Meanwhile, I realize that TSL has a number of solid, long term fans, including quite a few well-placed people in the figure skating community who have remained in contact with Dave over the years. He has some established connections, and that's always been the case. Most of his important networking contacts came via Jenny when they initially started the interview podcast. Plus, Dave has fans from his 'Aunt Joyce's Ice Cream Stand' days. Dave and TSL have gone through a number of transformations.

I'm sure many people find TSL overall to be a helpful resource. There's a great deal of valuable archival content on the platform, including the wonderful interview with Michelle Kwan, and with many other great champions, coaches, choreographers, and even a former U.S. fed official. There are also some accomplished skaters who have never appeared on TSL. I'm aware of the private patreon content, but I'm not interested in signing up, so I don't know how often Jenny appears with Dave on patreon. I've seen her occasionally helping out on the public podcast.

Their library of interviews is quite impressive on Patreon, let alone all of their public interviews on YouTube. Skaters, especially in the US, are aware of who Dave is and yet they still go on. It doesn't minimize the crap Dave spews at times, but I think it's telling that many still go on despite initially "controversial" opinions that make fans angry but very often end up being true.

I would not characterize opinions as being true or untrue. Opinions and commentary are perceptions and viewpoints, which can sometimes be expressed overly harsh or in a snarky way. Information that is offered can be true, untrue, or simply hearsay, exaggerated gossip, or fabrication. I'm aware that a lot of information tweeted by TSL often turns out to be true. And sometimes, Dave offers predictions, but simply because some of his predictions and projections may end up occurring does not make him a genius. He's just an astute, well-connected figure skating fan, with strong views (not unlike other observant fans). The difference being that Dave has connections and a following, via a long-term figure skating platform.

You won't find every skater going on TSL. I would not be surprised to learn the names of skaters who appear on the more private patreon content. Skaters are aware that such content is for dedicated, paying fans and not available to the general public. Plus, with Jenny helping out again, she's able to draw in skaters who might not normally agree to speaking with TSL on patreon, if it was just Dave asking them.

I'm aware of the valuable archival platform, since I've followed TSL from its inception.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don’t think DL has had problems having skaters come on TSL he seems to interview quite a few of them.

There was a down period for Dave and TSL, after Jenny departed. But that was a great while ago, prior to Dave finally enlisting Jonathan as a co-host. As well, Dave has been able to get people on who like him, including Sandra Bezic, David Wilson, et al. He has never had many problems acquiring international skaters either, particularly during the period when U.S. fed was less than pleased with some of his tweets and snarky behavior. As I said in my previous post, Dave has cultivated quite a few sources throughout the skating community, largely via his association with Jenny which he capitalized on. Plus, the TSL platform has built up valuable archival content. It's to Dave's credit that he kept TSL going during the down period immediately after Jenny departed.

I realize that to a certain degree, the harsh way Dave was viewed during the time of his 'Gracie comments,' has softened in some quarters. In other quarters, there are skating contacts who have always kept in touch with him.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The better physical skater isn’t going to the Olympics and it seems skewed.

You are phrasing your comment very awkwardly. There's nothing wrong with Jason's physicality or with his physical prowess as an athlete. The fact that Jason has not been able to completely master the quad has as much to do with mental approach as it does with the timing of his starting to train quads, as well as how he was initially being trained technically. Had he been able to adjust aspects of his jump training technique sooner in his career, then he wouldn't have had as much trouble. By this point, the entire situation is partly mental too with all the jabber from fans and naysayers.

In addition, Jason has paid a lot of attention to being the complete, polished and expressively detailed skater that he is. His talent is quite rare and magical. In the area of musicality and artistic expression/ storytelling, Ilia Malinin still has a long way to go. Simply because mastering that extra revolution has been difficult for Jason, does NOT mean he isn't a skilled jumper with the jumps that he has mastered. Plus, he has landed many quads. It has been getting past the psychological block to land them effectively and consistently in competition that has been the most trouble for Jason. And once again, this has a lot to do with the timing of when he began training the quad in earnest. Early in his career, his first coach preferred for Jason to concentrate on honing his superb movement qualities and artistic expression.

In the sport of figure skating, quads require a lot of mental and physical energy, which often can take away from full concentration on fine-tuned artistic expression. Sometimes, choices are made regarding focusing on stellar strengths. Plus, circumstances simply work out in the way they do. Again, the tendency by some to look down on Jason because he hasn't consistently mastered quads in competition, is rather harsh and uncalled for. There are many top skaters who struggle with incorporating quads with consistency and cleanliness into their programs. For example, although Mikhail Kolyada can land quads, I think he is a skater who loses mental focus largely due to his attempts to seamlessly incorporate multiple quads in his programs. He has ended up developing bad habits, including overthinking, which I believe is the source of his ubiquitous hiccoughs in competition. Despite this failing, I would never look down on or dismiss Kolyada's talent.

Even the masters, Nathan Chen and Yuzuru Hanyu have struggled with the quad factor vs having enough mental energy available to consistently focus on artistry throughout their performances. What makes Nathan so remarkable has been his ability to incorporate multiple quads with singular musicality and unique artistry. Yet, Nathan is often unfairly criticized for not being artistic (which is a false perception). He has just found a way to plan out positioning of the quads in his programs, matched with his superb technique, while also injecting expressiveness and unique choreographic elements, combined with practically unheard of cleanliness. I don't think many fans truly understood what a huge task this is, and the enormity of what Nathan has routinely achieved. Yuzuru understands.

Ilia acknowledges that he looks up to these masters, for a reason. Ilia should also be looking up to and noticing what makes Jason Brown such a masterful artist/ athlete.

 

[karne]

Ah yes, sorry, why are we holding Lease up as some kind of bastion of knowledge? The same Lease who once proudly proclaimed that Jason Brown would never land the triple Axel and laughed at and bullied anyone who said otherwise?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I like TSL and what Dave does for the skating community. I have absolutely no issue with his sometimes "edgy" jokes and gossips (which apparently turn out often to be true, judging by the previous posts). And I take no offense with the "Asian egg" joke whatsoever. It's clearly a joke, get over it.

There's such a thing as using, "It's just a joke," as an excuse for insensitive, snarky behavior. A lot of people have forgotten, or probably never saw the episode about four years ago, where Dave and Jonathan both went snark-all nasty on 16-year-old Starr Andrews. I'm not going to go into specifics because it's old news, but they brought in hearsay stuff about her mother, and criticized her programs in a racially-insensitive way (also saying negative things about Jason Brown, Boyang Jin, and some other skaters). I don't know what if anything ever happened to that episode -- it was in general a competition review episode where they inserted what they thought was a humorous takedown of Starr and her programs, coupled with gossip and hearsay referencing her mother. I compiled and posted a transcript of their vile parody and people were shocked. Of course other people made excuses for them. Then Dave & Jonathan went all, "Who Us? We're not..." We're all familiar with the defensive litany.

While I personally never accused D&J of being the unwanted 'r' word, they were certainly skating the line with their OTT, uncalled for comments about Starr, her program choices, and her mother. In order to smooth things over, for their next episode, Dave & Jonathan purposely did a whole feature focused on being critical of Eteri's baby ballerinas. LOL! Their attempt to backtrack and to make it look like they were equal opportunity criticizers of teenagers was so obvious and pathetic. Not a whole lot of people were paying attention, or cared, and the snafu blew over. For awhile though, D&J continued to be negative toward Starr, which doesn't mean every skating-related critique they have made isn't valid. Still, they have voiced overly negative attitudes toward Starr on a number of occasions, and they made nonsensical, unwarranted critiques about her program choices too, in addition to criticizing the old YouTube video her mother posted when Starr was 7, that went viral.

In recent years, I've noticed that D&J's comments about Starr have become less negative and more balanced (because it ain't cool to snark and pile on a young melanated skater who has achieved a measure of success in a sport that lacks significant diversity).

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Chances are Ilia will beat Jason again at their next competition.

What 'next competition' are you speaking of exactly? Although, I would love for Jason Brown to skate gorgeous competitive programs forever and a day, I doubt that he will be returning for another season post the 2022 Olympics. Already, Jason isn't going to be able to end his career at Worlds in France because a new hungry young phenom is on the warpath. Time passes, times change.

Jason will be sorely missed on the competitive scene. I'm quite sure his presence will be missed at the Cricket Club too. In addition to being a unique artist/ athlete, he's also a remarkable, generous, kind, lovely human being. Time passes so quickly. I remember being awed by Jason when I first saw him competing in his final season in juniors domestically. As I recall, that was about 12 years ago.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Let's not forget the time he called Liza Tuk fat.

In a sport where eating disorders are rife, he and the other guy thought that was appropriate and funny.

He also spread rumours about Aliona K that if true should have been cause for concern, not mockery. But he and the other guy thought it was bloody hilarious.

I've blocked them on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube and if tomorrow they were the only way to watch skating I'd rather quit watching the sport then give them a single click.

I wish all the skaters out there would boycott TSL and that they'd disappear forever.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Polina’s argument is sport trumps art.

In figure skating, while athleticism and technical abilities are scored differently, aesthetic abilities are very important. In fact, it was always the second 'presentation' mark that was used to break ties. The problem is that the scoring system is messy and it always has been. PCS scores are often manipulated for placements and not accurately scored.

Everyone acknowledges an imbalance in how TES vs PCS are scored. It's overly simplistic to say that sport trumps art in figure skating. It's just a variation of the faulty argument that figure skating is more sport than art. It is both, and it always has been. That's how the sport was developed, both athletically and artistically.

Again, those who wish to ignore the importance of aesthetic qualities in figure skating are off base. If that's the case, get rid of the costumes, the music, the choreography, the musical interpretation, the make-up, the packaging, the dance training, the arm movements, etc., etc. You really don't have a complete skater if sport and art do not come together, at least to some degree. Of course, as Dick Button once said, there will always exist this debate between the value judgements and predominance levels of sport vs art in figure skating.

 

[Tavi...]

Let's not forget the time he called Liza Tuk fat.

In a sport where eating disorders are rife, he and the other guy thought that was appropriate and funny.

He also spread rumours about Aliona K that if true should have been cause for concern, not mockery. But he and the other guy thought it was bloody hilarious.

I've blocked them on Twitter, Instagram and YouTube and if tomorrow they were the only way to watch skating I'd rather quit watching the sport then give them a single click.

I wish all the skaters out there would boycott TSL and that they'd disappear forever.

You can blame Dave for a lot of things, but I think it was actually Alex Ourashiev who commented on Liza’s weight when he joined TSL for a World’s recap, and it was years ago.

 

[Amei]

You can blame Dave for a lot of things, but I think it was actually Alex Ourashiev who commented on Liza’s weight when he joined TSL for a World’s recap, and it was years ago.

Dave's blame lies with fostering the catty environment of TSL of saying derogatory things about skaters