Ladies skating 2018 and beyond

[4everchan]

4everchan thanks for this!:agree:

But I had to smile to see the line about Alaine not having travelled....the kilometres she and her father put on her grandfather's old megaRV are staggering. See https://www.thestar.com/sports/2016...nd-discusses-gruelling-training-schedule.html

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...ure-skating-championships-chartrand-1.3509424

But it's true she sticks close to her family. Sounds as though they're a full team of support such that she brings home to where she trains. But with Leigh and Orser in the Toronto area, and former Slovakian Olympian Robert Kazimir coaching her in Ottawa (couple of hours closer to home), she's got lots of international expertise surrounding her. That said, her shout out to Robert Kasimir for national coaches week thanking him for telling her to "calm down" sounds like advice that all the top three Cnd women could benefit from in the last 3 years. https://www.instagram.com/p/BKtFZy2DvWF/.

Perhaps more and earlier developmental assignments for junior and novice women might be what's needed. It looks like Skates Canada is reconsidering its policy on international assignments for juniors, and sent some novice men to Europe late last season, so perhaps the new girls coming up will get opportunities too.

On the substantive point about late bloomers, I really appreciate your adding this into the thread. Skate Canada is pressing coaches (following Sport Canada policy) to coach to developmental or biological age within the reality of the ISU age criteria. Its Long Term Athlete Development Model documents argue that coaching to chronological age has been a negative in Canada, especially for girls. So, it will be interesting to me to see how this plays out once the major changes in Skate Canada's programming that came in during this quadrennial work through the cohorts coming up.

I'd like to bear in mind that 10 years ago IMO there were very few that would have forecast the incredible wave of new Russian womens' talent in its breadth and depth. Major changes in resources and philosophy at the federation level seem to be able to make significant impacts in this sport.

HEHE yup... i should have expressed myself better here... i know she's done a lot of mileage but yeah...I tend to believe that if family support is extremely vital and essential for top athletes, sometimes, getting away brings something new.

I personally thought that Alaine had a lot of extra pressure at worlds last year.... her entire family was there... she wanted to do so well. I can share a personal story which may explain how I feel about her situation.

I used to be a swimmer. My dad was driving back and forth to the pool at least once a day... in the end, he was just staying in the car, waiting for me while listening to the radio or doing crosswords. When I reached a higher level, well, I plateaued. I was not tall enough and was pretty much done growing. I could have gotten a bit better and further but after not making finals nor improving my best times, I started to feel guilty because my dad had no life other than his work and being my personal driver
So I quit. Too much pressure to do well. Too much guilt when results didn't come... The coach was incredibly upset, saying that the plateau was normal etc.etc.. but there was no going back. I resumed swimming but in a smaller team, for fun, meaning that I trained at school, no extra transiting...

So yeah...perhaps my personal history is colouring my analysis here Perhaps Alaine would do better if she had a different set up?

I am looking forward to seeing what Skate Canada will be doing to address the situation here... however, i still feel pretty excited about the current situation with 3 girls having potential for top ten at wc. When was the last time Canada had 3 strong girls, or even 2?

 

[TGee]

Thanks 4everchan for sharing your story...

The balance between support and pressure is a delicate one as I can see it.

But parents a have good reason for caution when they place their children, even adolescents and young adults, in the care of coaches. It will be the parents who will be there when an athlete has lost national team status due to injuries or letdowns of inappropriate coaching behaviour. (Am aware of such stories in other disciplines...).

And now that I'm on the parent side of the dynamic, I'm trying to figure out how to keep an appropriate balance of closeness vs space/distance. Couldn't see us sending our kids 1000s of miles away to board with another family to train. Think about that everytime I hear about the kids moving to Moscow or St Petersberg... Or even from the Yukon to Vancouver. Glad that most national federations have more rigorous coaching standards than in the past.

 

[4everchan]

it's definitely not for everyone to move so far away and of course, the family's dynamics will vary a lot.

I think it's been good for Patrick to move a few times. It seems to be going better for Nam this year so far. Kevin has never moved if I recall properly. Liam seems to have been all over the place. Of course Kaetlyn is so far away from the Rock.

Whatever Alaine chooses to do, I simply wish her to achieve her goals.

I am also wondering if anyone knows about her and the 3A.... she was trying it last year... it seems gone from her programs this year.

Thanks 4everchan for sharing your story...

The balance between support and pressure is a delicate one as I can see it.

But parents a have good reason for caution when they place their children, even adolescents and young adults, in the care of coaches. It will be the parents who will be there when an athlete has lost national team status due to injuries or letdowns of inappropriate coaching behaviour. (Am aware of such stories in other disciplines...).

And now that I'm on the parent side of the dynamic, I'm trying to figure out how to keep an appropriate balance of closeness vs space/distance. Couldn't see us sending our kids 1000s of miles away to board with another family to train. Think about that everytime I hear about the kids moving to Moscow or St Petersberg... Or even from the Yukon to Vancouver. Glad that most national federations have more rigorous coaching standards than in the past.

 

[Ophelia]

Hoping for rise of the Koreans.

 

[ice coverage]

... Liam seems to have been all over the place. ...

LOL, three different training bases (BC, Colorado, Quebec) = "all over the place"?

Then Nam (who is six years younger than Liam) already has been "all over the place" too .

 

[MaxSwagg]

It will be "The Era of Marin Honda."

 

[4everchan]

it's definitely not for everyone to move so far away and of course, the family's dynamics will vary a lot.

I think it's been good for Patrick to move a few times. It seems to be going better for Nam this year so far. Kevin has never moved if I recall properly. Liam seems to have been all over the place. Of course Kaetlyn is so far away from the Rock.

Whatever Alaine chooses to do, I simply wish her to achieve her goals.

I am also wondering if anyone knows about her and the 3A.... she was trying it last year... it seems gone from her programs this year.

LOL, three different training bases (BC, Colorado, Quebec) = "all over the place"?

Then Nam (who is six years younger than Liam) already has been "all over the place" too .

yes Patrick and Nam as well as Liam... and i didn't say that nam went from bc to cricket to california because it's implied? I quoted and bolded my own post because i am clearly listing skaters who have moved versus skaters who haven't... i am not making a tally of liam versus nam, nor making a gps map of their travels. I don't understand what you are implying here? I could have added Elladj too... or talk about when Cynthia went to Cricket or when Josée went to Louis Stong... but I think my point had been understood... forgive me if it hadn't been.

 

[ice coverage]

yes Patrick and Nam as well as Liam... and i didn't say that nam went from bc to cricket to california because it's implied? I quoted and bolded my own post because i am clearly listing skaters who have moved versus skaters who haven't... i am not making a tally of liam versus nam, nor making a gps map of their travels. I don't understand what you are implying here? I could have added Elladj too... or talk about when Cynthia went to Cricket or when Josée went to Louis Stong... but I think my point had been understood... forgive me if it hadn't been.

The sequence of your list was confusing. On your list first were Patrick and Nam, who have moved around. Then Kevin, who has not. Then -- not lumped in with Patrick and Nam -- was Liam, as if he belonged to a third (and more extreme) category of "all over the place".

Wasn't clear what the point of your sequence was .
Thank you for the explanation in your reply.

 

[4everchan]

The sequence of your list was confusing. On your list first were Patrick and Nam, who have moved around. Then Kevin, who has not. Then -- not lumped in with Patrick and Nam -- was Liam, as if he belonged to a third (and more extreme) category of "all over the place".

Wasn't clear what the point of your sequence was .
Thank you for the explanation in your reply.

so my post was all over the place that's okay

I simply meant the movers vs the homers. Different factors, lives, skating environments, resources, support system etc....

I was talking about Alaine's pressure with all the sacrifices her family makes driving around etc.... and that perhaps moving away may help... but it could be the opposite too.

 

[chuckm]

About the Canadian ladies: Alaine and Kaetlyn are 20, Gabby is 18. Yes, they are young, but compared to the rising Russian and Japanese skaters, they are already middle-aged. Of the three, Gabby has the best potential to move up in the ranks, as long as she isn't sidelined with injury.

 

[4everchan]

fair enough but let's say that they wish to skate around 23-24, that's beyond 2018.... and that's 2022 for Gabby. Ashley, Caro and Mao, to name these three are beyond that age...

About the Canadian ladies: Alaine and Kaetlyn are 20, Gabby is 18. Yes, they are young, but compared to the rising Russian and Japanese skaters, they are already middle-aged. Of the three, Gabby has the best potential to move up in the ranks, as long as she isn't sidelined with injury.

 

[desertskates]

I think the next era will belong to Polina Tsurskaya, Marin Honda, and any one of the many brilliant young Korean ladies. Gabby Daleman seems likely to stick around after 2018, and seem to me like Canada's best bet. Has Ashley ever said that she's definitely done after Pyeongchang? Sticking around for one more year seems like just her style, and I like it

 

[koatcue]

It will be "The Era of Marin Honda."

Tsurskaya disagrees.

 

[Sam L]

I think that it would be appropriate and great to see a Russo-Japanese rivalry in the post-2018 world like the one Yuna Kim and Mao Asada had. Meaning two skaters who have the star quality and longevity for about 2 Olympics. I think that would be great for the sport.

 

[Alex D]

I think that especially Russia benefits from the funding and possibilities that skaters have there. If you can leave school at 11 to focus on skating 10 hours a day, then you will clearly have an edge over someone who is having to learn for exams, while looking for sponsors and ice time all day long. We can´t blame the NA ladies for that, I am sure they always give their best and the injuries in team Canada, might also be a result of that. They know they are behind, so they rush things and get back on ice too soon again.

For me,

it does not matter who wins what medal, as there are so many great skaters and in the end, not everyone can medal, as there are just three spots... Again, I saw a lot of great skating by young athletes during Nebelhorn, Amber did skate lights out for me, I love her style, Alaine sadly wasn't here, but she is awesome too so NA has skaters after 2018 and I am sure the legacy of Ashley and Gracie, but also Kaetlyn will motivate more kids to get on blades. It just needs some more time.

 

[hanca]

I think that especially Russia benefits from the funding and possibilities that skaters have there. If you can leave school at 11 to focus on skating 10 hours a day, then you will clearly have an edge over someone who is having to learn for exams, while looking for sponsors and ice time all day long. We can´t blame the NA ladies for that, I am sure they always give their best and the injuries in team Canada, might also be a result of that. They know they are behind, so they rush things and get back on ice too soon again.

While you are talking how huge advantage it is for Russian skaters to be funded, what about the NA skaters who are buying their way into the sport? Skaters who's daddy is paying for a partner for their daughters, or whose father was arranging a helicopter transport to the rink? One can argue that this would be a huge advantage, and Russian and Japanese skaters could only dream about such conditions.

 

[Alex D]

While you are talking how huge advantage it is for Russian skaters to be funded, what about the NA skaters who are buying their wayShows the sport? Skaters who's daddy is paying for a partner for their daughters, or whose father was arranging a helicopter transport to the rink? One can argue that this would be a huge advantage, and Russian and Japanese skaters could only dream about such conditions.

There is no shame of having a good Support in Russia, no need to get angry about that.

The downside of their System is the huge pressure, perform and get funded or go away...

In NA no FS leaves school without a degree, its a big plus and gracie as example will have something to build on even without Gold around her neck.

Btw. A helicopter ride wont win titles nor a partner who as you say a daddy pays... Its practice, hard work and dedication.

I get flagged a lot at this forum as being pro Russian, guess now I am pro NA ...

I can't win I guess. someone will always find something to dislike

 

[silverfoxes]

I think that especially Russia benefits from the funding and possibilities that skaters have there. If you can leave school at 11 to focus on skating 10 hours a day, then you will clearly have an edge over someone who is having to learn for exams, while looking for sponsors and ice time all day long. We can´t blame the NA ladies for that, I am sure they always give their best and the injuries in team Canada, might also be a result of that. They know they are behind, so they rush things and get back on ice too soon again.

The vast majority of Russian skaters do not get any special benefit whatsoever nor are they leaving school at 11. They have to show results first to get funding and it's obviously extremely competitive, and you don't get continued funding if the results don't warrant it. By the way, even if they don't attend a regular school, they still have to study and take exams too, like everyone else. Evgenia, Elena, Anna, etc. all talk about this in their interviews.

 

[lappo]

While you are talking how huge advantage it is for Russian skaters to be funded, what about the NA skaters who are buying their way into the sport? Skaters who's daddy is paying for a partner for their daughters, or whose father was arranging a helicopter transport to the rink? One can argue that this would be a huge advantage, and Russian and Japanese skaters could only dream about such conditions.

Do such skaters really exist? I mean, I'm sure some of them are probably from a very wealthy family but I think that the vast majority of them are from a middle class environment, which means that skating costs are a burden for the family. In fact, you often hear how much sacrifices went into funding your child skating before they reach top ranks (Ashley Wagner had to work to support herself; both Yuzu and Javi's sisters quit because their families couldn't afford two children skating and both their moms had to find a job to help cover the costs; Chan and his 150k a year expenses and so on...). I think that in NA and most of Europe the lack of state funds inevitably lead to less children chosing skating; those who do inevitably come from middle to upper class family. In countries with state funds, such as Japan and Russia, there will be more children skating and therefore a deeper poll of talents to choose from.

 

[andromache]

While you are talking how huge advantage it is for Russian skaters to be funded, what about the NA skaters who are buying their way into the sport? Skaters who's daddy is paying for a partner for their daughters, or whose father was arranging a helicopter transport to the rink? One can argue that this would be a huge advantage, and Russian and Japanese skaters could only dream about such conditions.

It's an advantage for the Russian system as a whole because the BEST skaters and BEST competitors and most naturally talented girls are getting the funding, so there's going to be a huge crop of top ladies. In the NA system, only those with resources and/or making enormous sacrifices will make it to the top, and those top girls might not be the best competitors (Gracie) or the most naturally talented (Ashley.) Perhaps there are little girls out there who one day have the potential to be the best of the best, but will probably quit or not pursue the sport seriously once it involves a certain high cost or a big move to a better coach.