2018 US Championships Sr Men SP

[Mathman]

Come on, everybody. Only ten more pages to go to catch this thread up to the ladies'.

 

[Violet Bliss]

There is a big PCS gap up for the top 3. The next three didn't get as much inflation benefit. Is Ross really that far below those three in his PCS aspects?

 

[Mrs. P]

Why should Jason Brown get the "benefit of the doubt" on his 3Axel of all things? It's not like it's normally a strong, consistent element for him. He has had many errors with that jump this season. I am not a fan of Tara and Johnny's commentary normally, but I give them props for acknowledging the truth on broadcast tv that this failure to nitpick these technical calls on under-rotations and two-footed landings, especially at an event as critical as an Olympic trials, is what kills figure skating as a sport and makes it lack real credibility.

I am also not saying that one really strong short program from Grant all of a sudden makes him an Olympic medal contender. I am, however, a very strong advocate for fairness. Imagine if it was your favorite skater who was wrongly placed behind someone who had a major technical error go unnoticed. Brown is at least 3 points ahead in this competition because his missed 3Axel was called incorrectly. This is a sport where fates are determined by tenths of a point and with that said, 3 points are huge.

I think it's fine that they disagree with the call and whether it was fair But they need to acknowledge what the tech panel is actually reviewing. That's the problem that Tavi pointed out earlier. And whether Jason should have gotten the benefit of the doubt is also up for debate, but I think you also need to acknowledge what the tech panel has at their disposal. They don't have the luxury of 50 pages of forum discussion to decide on 3A call. They have several minutes, at best.

And honestly, yes Jason is one of my favorite skaters. But Jason has been behind people that I think got uncalled URs in the past and I accepted it because of what I noted above. I would have accepted it if he go the UR call too.

Also I will note that reading this thread is a bit of Cognitive Dissonance from being at the arena because basically the audience loved Jason and his performance even with the error, which if you think about was several seconds of a 2:50 performance. He got a standing ovation.

There is a big PCS gap up for the top 3. The next three didn't get as much inflation benefit. Is Ross really that far below those three in his PCS aspects?

I don't think so. Especially SS -- Ross has some of the best skating skills. I would have like the top three to be more in the range of 43-45, tops.

 

[Miss Ice]

It does matter because depending on the angle of the replay or the amount of time they had to review they might have not seen the clear UR. It's really easy for us armchair folks to look at the NBC footage over and over again and say yes it's definitely UR, but the tech panel doesn't have that same luxury.

I would have been fine if it was called UR, actually.. But sport has room for varying views too. Again, while a different vibe (thanks angelentl for your post) people make disputable calls in other sports and people disagree over it.

The UR was obvious on the first slow-mo replay, which I am sure the tech controller saw. They just chose not to call it. And even if they somehow "missed it", I am sure another coach or judge must have noticed it. If this was actually a sport as it claims to be, Jason and others would not get away with this.

 

[Mrs. P]

The UR was obvious on the first slow-mo replay, which I am sure the tech controller saw. They just chose not to call it. And even if they somehow "missed it", I am sure another coach or judge must have noticed it. If this was actually a sport as it claims to be, Jason and others would not get away with this.

I think it looked borderline to me. Michael Weiss has this viewpoint also (he was doing the IN commentary).

And again, people get away with uncalled things in sport all the time. See the post Mathman mentioned above I don't agree or accept it, but I think this idea that the fact that human beings may decide a call you disagree make something less of a sport. But YMMV.

 

[TMC]

I think it's fine that they disagree with the call and whether it was fair But they need to acknowledge what the tech panel is actually reviewing. That's the problem that Tavi pointed out earlier. And whether Jason should have gotten the benefit of the doubt is also up for debate, but I think you also need to acknowledge what the tech panel has at their disposal. They don't have the luxury of 50 pages of forum discussion to decide on 3A call. They have several minutes, at best.

And honestly, yes Jason is one of my favorite skaters. But Jason has been behind people that I think got uncalled URs in the past and I accepted it because of what I noted above. I would have accepted it if he go the UR call too.

Also I will note that reading this thread is a bit of Cognitive Dissonance from being at the arena because basically the audience loved Jason and his performance even with the error, which if you think about was several seconds of a 2:50 performance. He got a standing ovation.

But don't the rules state that when rotation is borderline, ie. it could be either way, the callers are supposed to give the skater the benefit of the doubt?

I don't know, I find it hard to take some of these complaints seriously because the same people often are perfectly happy when their fave's underrotations are not called...

ETA if the rule is as I remember it, wouldn't a scenario where one of the callers says it's a UR but the two others say borderline mean no UR?

 

[Mrs. P]

But don't the rules state that when rotation is borderline, ie. it could be either way, the callers are supposed to give the skater the benefit of the doubt?

I don't know, I find it hard to take some of these complaints seriously because the same people often are perfectly happy when their fave's underrotations are not called...

But some of the tech callers do not.

The rule I believe is that if the two technical specialists disagree then the technical controller is the one that breaks the tie.

 

[Miss Ice]

I think it looked borderline to me. Michael Weiss has this viewpoint also (he was doing the IN commentary).

And again, people get away with uncalled things in sport all the time. See the post Mathman mentioned above I don't agree or accept it, but I think this idea that the fact that human beings may decide a call you disagree make something less of a sport. But YMMV.

Um, just pause the video at the point where Jason's toe pick touches the ice. I think it's pretty clear it's >1/4 short.

I would agree with your last statement if flutzers weren't uncalled 95% of the time, and if URs of some top ladies weren't uncalled 90% of the time. This obvious fraudery has been going on for the past 3+ years. (I don't follow men's skating much but it seems that this isn't the fist time Jason is getting away with something). Please tell me how that qualifies FS as a sport.

Also, I think Mirai's 3T in the SP should have been called. I'm a big fan of Mirai, but I think that was unfair. I am not afraid to admit this for the integrity of the sport.

 

[TMC]

But some of the tech callers do not.

The rule I believe is that if the two technical specialists disagree then the technical controller is the one that breaks the tie.

So if one specialist says borderline and the other says UR, the controller could say borderline in which case it's not a UR?

 

[Shayuki]

I think it looked borderline to me. Michael Weiss has this viewpoint also (he was doing the IN commentary).

It's a very clear UR. It's only maybe 10-15 degrees off a downgrade. Nothing borderline about it, really. See the slow-mo at 1/4x speed on Youtube here

Maybe it's because I've never been a fan of Brown's and this program of his certainly doesn't help with that but to me Adam > Nathan >>> Jason today and the difference should be significantly bigger between Adam and Jason.

If this UR was called correctly the difference would likely be closer to 7 points or so, which would be far more fair. Really, it'd be great if these could just be called fairly and skaters like Brown didn't get artificially held up just because they have had some stronger results internationally.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think it would have been fine if it was called. But honestly I'll repeat that it didn't take away from the overall performance and everything else was really awesome.

 

[Tavi...]

It doesn't matter "who saw what". What matters is that Jason's 3A was UR and double footed, and should have had more negative GOE. This is unfair to other skaters, especially Nathan who rotated fully and had a minor step out. This is a sport, not a popularity contest. In any other sport (like rhythmic gymnastic) another coach would file a complaint and his 3A would likely get called UR after a second review.

Ummm. Since the tech panel are the ones who decide whether a jump is rotated or not, it obviously matters what they see. And my understanding is that what they see on review is exactly what they see from where they’re sitting. As to how much negative GOE was awarded, perhaps you’re unaware that if a judge would have awarded positive GOE to the jump without the 2-ft landing, then the final GOE may be higher than it would be otherwise.

@Mathman, yes it’s outrageous of me to disagree with you! . As I think I said, it’s very unclear how the selection criteria would factor in any given decision. Your take may well be right, but we don’t really know. The one thing I would question is your belief regarding the relative importance of 2018 Nats results to 2017 GPF and Worlds results. Also, the criteria mention placement but not medals. So for example, it’s unclear how much Jason’s results at Worlds would factor in. On the one hand, he “only” placed 7th. On the other, he scored nearly 270 points, had the highest quadless international SP score ever, and because Nathan did not medal, as most people expected, his 7th place finish could be seen as instrumental in obtaining the 3 World / Olympic spots. How would the selection committee weigh these things? No idea, but I personally am hoping that Jason kills it in the FS, and that we don’t need to find out.

 

[Jaana]

There has been some comments about Chen´s costume and hair, LOL. To me they both look fine and the costume really fits the music somehow.

 

[chopinskate]

Can I find the Dick/Peggy reunion online somewhere?

 

[Shayuki]

Ummm. Since the tech panel are the ones who decide whether a jump is rotated or not, it obviously matters what they see. And my understanding is that what they see on review is exactly what they see from where they’re sitting. As to how much negative GOE was awarded, perhaps you’re unaware that if a judge would have awarded positive GOE to the jump without the 2-ft landing, then the final GOE may be higher than it would be otherwise.

Two things there - First of all, you can see it's UR even if you slow-mo during the actual performance. You don't need fancy cam angles to see it, it just makes it more clear to explain. I have to assume the technical panel has video with higher FPS than 30 so they're not so heavily limited by frames, also.

And second, the UR penalty would be added to the two-foot penalty. It would most likely have been a -3 GOE across the board had it been properly called UR. But also, the two-foot landing does remove many potential positive bullet points in addition to causing a penalty. So it couldn't have been very positive regardless.


What is the point of having rules if they're only selectively enforced?

 

[Miss Ice]

Ummm. Since the tech panel are the ones who decide whether a jump is rotated or not, it obviously matters what they see. And my understanding is that what they see on review is exactly what they see from where they’re sitting. As to how much negative GOE was awarded, perhaps you’re unaware that if a judge would have awarded positive GOE to the jump without the 2-ft landing, then the final GOE may be higher than it would be otherwise. .

UR & 2-foot should cancel out any 'good quality' about the jump, as it has historically when the scoring was correct. Which is why I think justice is necessary, and not just for this case. And yes, the tech panel does decide, but what does that matter? Are you saying just because a tech panel decides something it must be accurate? (Exhibit A: Medvedeva's flutz - just because the tech panel doesn't call it, does it make it on an outside edge? No. Exhibit B: Mirai's 3T is still UR even if tech panel didn't call it.) Just admit it. Free passes are given out more freely in FS than pretty much any other sport, where any misjudging can be easily challenged by other coaches who don't want to see this kind of tomfoolery beat a more honest scoring.

What is the point of having rules if they're only selectively enforced?

Exactly.

 

[el henry]

Figure skating is the only sport where fans disagree about calls? Or where it only favors one party?

Really? anyone for Pete Morelli and the Philadelphia Eagles? I know 99.99% will need to google it, if they even care, but sports, sports, sports of all sorts have these arguments All.The.Time.

Jason had a great skate, he brought it, his sophisticated and mature skating, spinning and performance skills, all integral parts of this *sport* of figure skating, are second to none.

And frankly I don’t care about the “future” of figure skating, I don’t care about the “past”, I care about the here and now. Unless you’re bringing Toller back. And maybe Christopher Bowman

 

[TMC]

Figure skating is the only sport where fans disagree about calls? Or where it only favors one party?

Really? anyone for Pete Morelli and the Philadelphia Eagles? I know 99.99% will need to google it, if they even care, but sports, sports, sports of all sorts have these arguments All.The.Time.

This immediately brought to mind South Korea at the 2002 Fifa World Cup - talk about blatant cheating!

 

[lavender]

What is with Johnny when it comes to Jason. I know he's crying about Jason's scores in his sleep (kidding) but the unfairness certainly didn't start with Jason and it won't end with him either. It's not like Johnny was quad efficient. Adam is in the same boat whom I also love but he never says anything about is jumps...it's the same as Jason in the short and not just at Nationals. This favoritism, political, cheating crap has been going on forever and guess what...it's never going to change.

I use to support Johnny especially when it came to Evan but I don't get it.

 

[Frenchie]

Can I find the Dick/Peggy reunion online somewhere?

Here it is, at the 8:00 Minute mark.
Mr Marqus is uploading everything MSNBC / NBC are broadcasting, not only the performances from announcing a skater's name to their score being announced. Really helps (me) to get into the mood of the event.
Despite all their flaws, they really know how to put on a show and all their fluff pieces are worth watching. Even despite Tara and Johnny's commentaries!