2018 US Championships Sr Men SP

[MiRé]

This immediately brought to mind South Korea at the 2002 Fifa World Cup - talk about blatant cheating!

You mean Italy at 2006

 

[MiRé]

Figure skating is the only sport where fans disagree about calls? Or where it only favors one party?

Really? anyone for Pete Morelli and the Philadelphia Eagles? I know 99.99% will need to google it, if they even care, but sports, sports, sports of all sorts have these arguments All.The.Time.

Jason had a great skate, he brought it, his sophisticated and mature skating, spinning and performance skills, all integral parts of this *sport* of figure skating, are second to none.

And frankly I don’t care about the “future” of figure skating, I don’t care about the “past”, I care about the here and now. Unless you’re bringing Toller back. And maybe Christopher Bowman

Just because it happens in other sports, doesn't mean it's "okay" to happen in FS. That's just a pathetic excuse.

 

[melis]

Fun competition to watch!

Nathan's new costume is way too stiff and tailored for the music in my opinion. I actually liked the plain blouse he wore all season.

I dislike Jason's short so much that I wouldn't mind Vincent grabbing that 3rd spot.

 

[lavender]

This is a sport, not a popularity contest.

This is one of the "sports" where popularity is part of it.

I use to care..

 

[snowflake]

* I think it's super super important to note that the judges don't access to the same camera angle they do. I think from what I could see from looking at the judging panel, they only have the full-body replay, they don't have access to the super close-up slow-mo.

@snowflake, thank you for posting that clip of Johnny and Tara’s commentary on the 3A. I think it was fine for them to point the < they saw out. What wasn’t fine IMO was for Johnny in his role as commentator to complain that it was unfair to other skaters. He has a responsibility to educate television viewers that what they are seeing on the NBC feed is not necessarily the same feed the tech panel are reviewing. He didn’t do that.

Wow, I always thought the tech panel had the best views to watch in repeat. In more than one angel. I've read posters here defending skaters jumps due to the techs having better opportunities for correct judgements. So this means the skaters/choregraphers can place their hardest jumps in an angel where the tech panel doesn't have the best view then

* I think it's odd that people act like skating is the ONLY sport where calls are made and disagree upon. While football/basketball are far less subjective, there are calls that do make a difference in results and the commentators/refs disagree quite a bit.

I don't know who you mean by 'people'. As a football watcher I've seen hundreds of calls that I don't agree with: goal or not, penalty kicks or not, offside calls or not, hand or not etc

ETA From this season FIFA is testing video showing for the referees when they are in doubt.

 

[Tavi...]

@Shayuki, I am assuming that you’re saying it appears < on the NBC or Ice Network feed? Again, the NBC camera is not near the tech panel, and they don’t review it. So unless they have exactly the same vantage point as you do, what seems clear as day to you may seem only borderline to them, especially if the two foot obscures where the right blade touched down. As to the GOE, in a world where most of the time guys don’t get dinged for lack of connecting steps into their solo quads, I’m not sure the amount of negative GOE awarded to Jason is egregiously wrong. And frankly, I have never seen anyone dinged more than once for a jump that was two footed and <, or < fall. And I have seen plenty of examples where skaters are given less than maximum GOE even when they fall.

@Miss Ice, I don’t think there’s anything I can add to what I’ve already said. I’m not saying whether the tech panel’s call was or was not accurate. But as the rules stand, it is their call that matters.

 

[TerpsichoreFS]

Oops, sorry Vincent. I am showing my age. I was brought up on the Wade-Giles transliteration of Chinese into English. I remember when the right-hand man of Mao Tse-tung (now Mao Zedong) was Premier Chou En-lai (now Zhou En-lai). Anyway, here's best wishes for Caroline Jiang this evening.

Wow that is so interesting! It makes sense, chou and Zhou sound similar. Did they revise the Wade-Giles transliteration for better phonetic accuracy? Did that apply to other languages as well?

 

[chopinskate]

Here it is, at the 8:00 Minute mark.
Mr Marqus is uploading everything MSNBC / NBC are broadcasting, not only the performances from announcing a skater's name to their score being announced. Really helps (me) to get into the mood of the event.
Despite all their flaws, they really know how to put on a show and all their fluff pieces are worth watching. Even despite Tara and Johnny's commentaries!

Thank you so much!

 

[TMC]

Wow, I always thought the tech panel had the best views to watch in repeat. In more than one angel. I've read posters here defending skaters jumps due to the techs having better opportunities for correct judgements. So this means the skaters/choregraphers can place their hardest jumps in an angel where the tech panel doesn't have the best view then



I don't know who you mean by 'people'. As a football watcher I've seen hundreds of calls that I don't agree with: penalty kicks or not, offside calls or not, hand or not etc

I read just the other day that it's common practice to place some jumps in certain areas just for this reason. I think with the Lutz the idea was that it would be harder to spot a flutz this way.

 

[labgoat]

I read just the other day that it's common practice to place some jumps in certain areas just for this reason. I think with the Lutz the idea was that it would be harder to spot a flutz this way.

Kind of like hiding the weaker twizzles behind the stronger partner. This is nothing new, it has been done for years to hide two foot landings. I just watched Sandra Bezic commenting on the confidence of Bereznaya & Sikharulidze in placing their sbs triples directly in front of the judging panel in their SP in Vancouver.

 

[TMC]

Kind of like hiding the weaker twizzles behind the stronger partner. This is nothing new, it has been done for years to hide two foot landings. I just watched Sandra Bezic commenting on the confidence of Bereznaya & Sikharulidze in placing their sbs triples directly in front of the judging panel in their SP in Vancouver.

Of course - I hadn't realised it before you said it but they do often mention how a skater/team does something hard "right in front of the judges". It's extra awesome when it works and extra cringy when it doesn't, but I admire the confidence

 

[georgia]

Um, just pause the video at the point where Jason's toe pick touches the ice. I think it's pretty clear it's >1/4 short.

I would agree with your last statement if flutzers weren't uncalled 95% of the time, and if URs of some top ladies weren't uncalled 90% of the time. This obvious fraudery has been going on for the past 3+ years. (I don't follow men's skating much but it seems that this isn't the fist time Jason is getting away with something). Please tell me how that qualifies FS as a sport.

Also, I think Mirai's 3T in the SP should have been called. I'm a big fan of Mirai, but I think that was unfair. I am not afraid to admit this for the integrity of the sport.

Amen...your whole post is spot on.

 

[Kelly]

It certainly happens in basketball. Michael Jordan was always allowed to take an extra step without being called for traveling. This got so blatant that the NBA eventually changed the rule to allow greater leeway on traveling calls.

Wilt Chamberlain never, in his whole career, fouled out of a game. They were quite up front about it: the customers were paying to see Chamberlain play, not to see him sitting on the bench with five fouls. In general, the referees let the stars get away with a lot of stuff that they call lesser players for.

Good to know. Thanks!

 

[TontoK]

I was railing against Jason's Hamilton program before it was cool to do so.

Which, apparently, it is now,. Cool, I mean. Where have all the kindred spirits been all season?

I'm still looking forward to his LP, which I like very very much.

My revised rooting interest, since Max has imploded: Nathan, Adam, Vincent.

I really hate it for Max. Such a sad way to end the dream.

Although if Grant skates like he did last night, I certainly wouldn't complain if he were up there.

 

[el henry]

Just because it happens in other sports, doesn't mean it's "okay" to happen in FS. That's just a pathetic excuse.

I was responding to other posters who appeared to claim that this *only* happened in figure skating, or that calls for one party happen *only* in figure skating, or happen more in figure skating.

I am fine with the call on Jason’s 3A and don’t need to “excuse” it.

 

[katmari]

Placement at Nationals is the number one, tier one, criterion. Then it drifts down to criteria that are less heavily weighted, such as last year's worlds, grand prix medals, etc. Results previous to last year do not count at all.

Phil Hersh wrote an article last year about the selection criteria for worlds and stated that the same criteria will be used for the 2018 Olympics:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/20/214003280/new-rule-impacts-world-team-selection-procedure

Athletes shall be selected based upon performance(s) in the events below. The events have been stratified into tiers from the highest value events in Tier 1 through the lowest value events in Tier 3. Events within each tier shall be evaluated at equal weight.

Tier 1
2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2017 ISU Grand Prix Final
2017 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Tier 2
2017 Grand Prix Series Competitions
2017 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
Tier 3
2017 Challenger Series Events
2017 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2017 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
2017 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final

 

[Mathman]

Wow that is so interesting! It makes sense, Chou and Zhou sound similar. Did they revise the Wade-Giles transliteration for better phonetic accuracy? Did that apply to other languages as well?

I am far from an expert in linguistics. The Wade-Giles system was invented by British scholars and diplomats in the 1800s, and was standard in the Western world until the 1970s. The modern system was invented in China by Chinese scholars in the 1950s and gradually took over world wide.

"Chou" and "Zhou" not only sound the same, they are the same (although there are differences in pronunciation among various Chinese spoken dialects). In English they are pronounced like the name "Joe." I am sure that there are many Chinese speakers on the board that can supply more details.

That Zh at the beginning leads some English speakers to think that it ought to be pronounced like French j or like the z in azzure, but it's not. IIRC Caroline Zhang ("J'ong") once mentioned that she has gotten used to being introduced in ice shows as "Caroline Zang" (rhymes with Twang).

 

[Mathman]

Phil Hersh wrote an article last year about the selection criteria for worlds and stated that the same criteria will be used for the 2018 Olympics:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/01/20/214003280/new-rule-impacts-world-team-selection-procedure

Athletes shall be selected based upon performance(s) in the events below. The events have been stratified into tiers from the highest value events in Tier 1 through the lowest value events in Tier 3. Events within each tier shall be evaluated at equal weight.

Tier 1
2018 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2017 ISU Grand Prix Final
2017 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
Tier 2
2017 Grand Prix Series Competitions
2017 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
Tier 3
2017 Challenger Series Events
2017 U.S. Figure Skating Championships
2017 World Junior Figure Skating Championships
2017 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final

Thank you for posting this. The biggest difference between these criteria and previous versions is that they used to specify exactly what level of accomplishment was needed. To get credit for "Grand Prix Final" do you have to medal, or just make the finals. How high must you place at Worlds for that to count? Do you have to win Four Continenents or just participate.

Now I see why Christine Brennan recently wrote that it is just whatever the Selection Committee wants to do.

PS. This is terrible. The USFS has totally trashed its own National Championship. What is being contested this week?

 

[Violet Bliss]

Wow that is so interesting! It makes sense, chou and Zhou sound similar. Did they revise the Wade-Giles transliteration for better phonetic accuracy? Did that apply to other languages as well?

The Chinese has always had their own phonetic symbols (sort of like the alphabets but not used in actual words). The Wade-Giles system tried to emulate the sounds of Chinese words but there are so many differentiations that alphabets can't cover. China then adopted the alphabets to represent their phonetic symbols (Bo Po Mo Fo system) so the alphabet translations are standardized and used by the Chinese themselves. However, the alphabets representing these symbols don't always sound the same as how it is usually pronounced. E.g. there are three variations that used to be covered by "ch" such that "q" is used after "c" and "ch" are adopted. As well, the same "spelling" may cover many words but does not specify a specific word with its specific tone/phonetic.

FYI, Cong of Han Cong should be pronounced more like Chong than Kong.

 

[jenaj]

I think it looked borderline to me. Michael Weiss has this viewpoint also (he was doing the IN commentary).

And again, people get away with uncalled things in sport all the time. See the post Mathman mentioned above I don't agree or accept it, but I think this idea that the fact that human beings may decide a call you disagree make something less of a sport. But YMMV.

I just looked at it in slo-mo and I am also not convinced it was UR. To call it UR, you have to go back to the take-off, which I don't think IJS requires. I think between his touch-down and the blade fully coming down was less than a quarter turn and continued on the same arc. Two-footed for sure.