2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[colormyworld240]

Normally after ! the GOE goes down drastically to around 0. Unfair or not depending on the person, but Anna's CoC ! calls received slightly above 0 average in GOE. In general ! calls from multiple skaters e.g. Mariah, Young You etc. received 0/-1. The idea she is already losing GOE hasn't been established.

ISU Guidelines show that there is a cap of +3 if there is not a good take-off and landing, but it is explicitly stated that positive aspects are independent of negative aspects and that there should be a further reduction of -1 to -3 for ! after having evaluated the positive aspects.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...y-and-guidelines-for-marking-goe-2019-20/file

I went through the document and from my understanding with a ! call, there is a further reduction from -1 to -3 after the positive GOE bullets, so it's cumulative. So for example if a jump is evaluated at +4 before taking the edge into consideration (having creative entrances/exits, good height and distance, body position, good landing), when when the edge ! call is applied, the jump can still have an overall GOE of +1 to +3, correct me if I'm not interpreting this right. Not that it has to have -1 to -3 GOE despite the positive bullets.

The cap in GOE I see is in the last statement on the last page, where final GOE cannot be more than +2 in the case of wrong edge e call (no mention of !), 2 foot landing, step out, or fall, even after including the positive GOE bullets. I could have missed something or not be understanding it correctly but that's my takeaway so I don't think Anna getting +3 on a ! jump is unfair if she has all the other positive bullets, but I guess that depends on whether a person thinks she hit the positive bullets or not.

 

[colormyworld240]

They turned off the heating in the rink and the skaters had to stay for doping control. She doesn‘t say anything about the hotel in her interview, so please don‘t invent things.



But you can‘t actually know whether she lost GOE for it or not? Fact is, she was not called, and thus it is logical to conclude that she didn‘t lose GOE either as we have no way of knowing what the judges were thinking when assigning the GOEs for each jump. I don‘t think the argument: “Oh, she wasn‘t called but actually she WAS called, you see.“ makes too much sense. Anna‘s jumps during the FS were worse than during the SP, maybe it was fatigue or overtraining (at the practice they looked easier), I don‘t know. But they looked more muscled and I don’t think any of the lutzes deserved +5 GOE on any rate. If there‘s a mistake with a jump it should be called. Even if the judges had supposedly deducted GOE without calling the edge (which I don‘t believe to be the case), this wouldn‘t make it right either.

I don't know for sure, no, as with anything regarding what the judges are thinking. So perhaps it's not so much that she was for sure deducted but rather the +3 GOE is not unreasonable for the jumps for which she received them even with the ! call. She only for +3 for the first 4Lz combo, and her final single 3Lz. The others all had GOEs below, granted there were major errors associated with them. But I thought the 4Lz combo and 3Lz was just about as good as she's ever done them, hitting good landing, air position, height and distance, and creative entry/exists, which when I follow the document that silveruskate linked above, +3, while the highest GOE any skater could get with a ! call, is within the judging criteria. I guess the question is whether you think Anna hit all those bullets for those two passes (at 0:55 and 3:10 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0ZRooEHg4) and which ones she didn't get as there is subjectivity (no measurement as to what qualifies as enough height distance, position, landing, etc.).

Edited: to include links and highlight the jumps mentioned

 

[colormyworld240]

Wow, quite controversial. Anna's 2A deserves +5 and it's unfair she doesn't get it, but technically Alina is better at spins and jumps in the SP. Her 3F is way more textbook, has better height, edge quality and distance, also includes a transition into the jump (3-turn I believe). Same with 3Lz-3Lo but the difference in quality is even bigger, and Alina has greater landing speed. Alina's spins are more centred, and the same speed if not more. Anna has the flexibility that's for sure. About PCS I'm not sure, Anna is fabulous with the music she has, but the Swan Lake for Alina as an Olympic program was cut and choreographed to perfection.

Yes, I know it's very controversial. Alina has some very devoted fans and I would consider myself one of them, but I don't think saying I believe Anna should deserve the same (or better scoring because she has higher BV) is an insult to Alina. From my POV, it's a compliment to Anna. I'm not saying Alina didn't deserve her scores, though it might be taken that way; I'm saying Anna should be getting those high scores as well.

 

[Decoder]

Yes, I know it's very controversial. Alina has some very devoted fans and I would consider myself one of them, but I don't think saying I believe Anna should deserve the same (or better scoring because she has higher BV) is an insult to Alina. From my POV, it's a compliment to Anna. I'm not saying Alina didn't deserve her scores, though it might be taken that way; I'm saying Anna should be getting those high scores as well.

Don't worry, no misunderstanding.

 

[Decoder]

It‘s not like you weren‘t implying the worst either, is it?

Honestly, the organization was bad at times and there were mishaps that shouldn‘t happen at events like these, believe me, I was there and had to witness it first hand. But the insane amount of bashing that went on before the event had even started, calling the ice inadequate and a danger to the athletes instead of listening what they themselves or people at the arena had to say was not warranted either. So, forgive me, if given the history of your posts on this matter, I didn‘t mean to imply but genuinely thought the “worst“.

I think you are going a little bit too far here. Athletes do need a good all-round environment for these events, and a good ice is the minimum one could ask for, right? There are several people voiced their dissatisfaction (rightfully), and worried about the well being of 3A and others (understandably), me included. I don't think that's an insane amount of bashing.

Overall, Euro 2020 is a success, and thanks to Austria for their effort.

BTW, like others, I really appreciate your live reports. The post competition ball is also a very good idea.

 

[silveruskate]

I went through the document and from my understanding with a ! call, there is a further reduction from -1 to -3 after the positive GOE bullets, so it's cumulative. So for example if a jump is evaluated at +4 before taking the edge into consideration (having creative entrances/exits, good height and distance, body position, good landing), when when the edge ! call is applied, the jump can still have an overall GOE of +1 to +3, correct me if I'm not interpreting this right. Not that it has to have -1 to -3 GOE despite the positive bullets.

The cap in GOE I see is in the last statement on the last page, where final GOE cannot be more than +2 in the case of wrong edge e call (no mention of !), 2 foot landing, step out, or fall, even after including the positive GOE bullets. I could have missed something or not be understanding it correctly but that's my takeaway so I don't think Anna getting +3 on a ! jump is unfair if she has all the other positive bullets, but I guess that depends on whether a person thinks she hit the positive bullets or not.

I have the same reading of it as you. And before even commenting I'll say I get that you may not even agree with ! in the first place. But if you were saying it is a poor take-off in the first place too then the document says GOE must be capped at +3 as that is one of the main 3 bullets. Her jumps are always effortless throughout, but she also must satisfy very good jump height and length to even access +4/+5 as well. Therefore she would get -1/-3 off a max of +3 making a final GOE of +3 impossible. Just an fyi, I don't believe creative exits are taken into account as the document only states creative entry to meet that bulletpoint.

Yes, I know it's very controversial. Alina has some very devoted fans and I would consider myself one of them, but I don't think saying I believe Anna should deserve the same (or better scoring because she has higher BV) is an insult to Alina. From my POV, it's a compliment to Anna. I'm not saying Alina didn't deserve her scores, though it might be taken that way; I'm saying Anna should be getting those high scores as well.

I can understand that it isn't meant as an insult, but relatively speaking as soon as the comparison is made, in my view it's clear to see that Alina deserves higher scores. So if she's getting 82 then it should be lower for Anna.

 

[Batsuchan]

Overall, Euro 2020 is a success, and thanks to Austria for their effort.

BTW, like others, I really appreciate your live reports. The post competition ball is also a very good idea.

I take it all back--all my incredulousness about the makeshift arena in a--er, NEAR a--potato field!

Just because this competition has also yielded one of my NEW favorite moments of the season--everyone trying to waltz!!
https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240242
https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240243

Dmitri & Aliona, Artur & Anna, and Moris & Sasha

Yeah...they should definitely stick to singles skating!

 

[Batsuchan]

Dance dance dance!
https://twitter.com/Mabt_3a4t/status/1221201831327494144?s=03
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7ziV51JvEq/

 

[Vemvane]

https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240242
https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240243

Dmitri & Aliona, Artur & Anna, and Moris & Sasha

Yeah...they should definitely stick to singles skating!

Oh me oh my. I hope they had fun! Though Aliona and Dmitri actually look respectably competent, if they are the pair I think they are.

Dance dance dance!
https://twitter.com/Mabt_3a4t/status/1221201831327494144?s=03
https://www.instagram.com/p/B7ziV51JvEq/

Anna and Aliona having fun! Thank you for the links.

 

[McBibus]

I take it all back--all my incredulousness about the makeshift arena in a--er, NEAR a--potato field!

Just because this competition has also yielded one of my NEW favorite moments of the season--everyone trying to waltz!!
https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240242
https://vk.com/video-165119932_456240243

Dmitri & Aliona, Artur & Anna, and Moris & Sasha

Yeah...they should definitely stick to singles skating!

Thanks!

Anna and Artur really seems two biiys at their prom.
I love Aliona in that dress.
Sasha seems adorably shy as usual in public.

... but Stepanova/Bukin steal the eyes as usual.
What a couple

 

[McBibus]

Aliona's skating skills are like a hot knife passing through butter, her edge control is out of this world I couldn't believe it how much she just glides on the ice in that video.

That's the main reason I'm so crazy about her.
She skates in a bubble of magic pushed by some mystical wind.
She's much like Carolina in this aspect, they just effortlessy move a feet and they can travel for miles like the ice is downhill.

Another reason is that I like axels so much.
A jump I will never forget was by Boitano in an exhibition: it was a single axel, but with elevation and distance pushed like for a 3A; it seemed suspended in the air forever slowly turning for that 1.5 turns :luv17:
Midori was at that exibition too with her never saw befor trixel.
I got home devoted to axels for the rest of my life.

Back to skating skills it buffles me to not see a clear difference reported in the PCS vote (you can see the difference when they skate in formation during warmup), but before starting comparing SS votes, we should understand why PCS are voted like a global vote with minimal differences between a category and another.
Anna: 8.93, 8.71, 9.0, 8.96, 8.89; Max-Min=0.29
Aliona: 9.11, 8.86, 9.11, 9.14, 9.14; Max-Min=0.28
Sasha: 8.61, 8.25, 8.32. 8.46. 8.39; Max-Min= 0.36
Alexia 0.39, Kiibus, 0.5, Riabova 0.4

I would like to see some PCS evalution like "Your program has great composition and you sold it well, but you SS and transitions sucks", than we can compare.
That way it's more an impossible to discuss "artistical" vote.

In other words, I don't know if the judges see a difference in SS or not between the girls, because they don't seem to express a clear SS vote, and unclear it exposed to manipulation and endless controversies.

 

[nussnacker]

D. Samsonov described girls in one word in his Olympic channel interview.
Sasha is a robot
Aliona is an angel
Anna is a Queen
Alina is a rocket
What a sweet kid, haha I chuckled when he called Sasha a robot, because he thinks she’s that unstoppable.

 

[Lzbee]

I agree. Not underscored at all relatively I would say. But 0.33 + 0.53 = 0.86?

That's a good point, it does seem a bit high. I took the base values from the skating scores website though and they get it from protocols as far as I know - 33.78 for Anna and 34.97 for Alina's Olympic SP.

I did some digging but ISU make this quite hard as they only seem to upload the latest scale of values but it looks like the 3Lz+3L has decreased in value since 2018. Comparing the base values of the jumps on skating scores, the 3Lz went from 6 pts to 5.9 pts and 3L went from 5.1 pts to 4.9 pts.

This explains why even 3Aces struggle to reach 80+ without 3As and why there's been so few skaters being consistently in the 70s lately. On the other hand, I think this means that there's been a lot of PCS creep as this hasn't affected scores as much as I'd expect (I'd have to look more into the numbers for that though so don't quote me on it).

 

[KOBOT37]

D. Samsonov described girls in one word in his Olympic channel interview.
Sasha is a robot
Aliona is an angel
Anna is a Queen
Alina is a rocket
What a sweet kid, haha I chuckled when he called Sasha a robot, because he thinks she’s that unstoppable.

Alina a rocket?!

I think more fitting would be a princess for Anna and a Queen for Alina

 

[nussnacker]

Alina a rocket?!

I think more fitting would be a princess for Anna and a Queen for Alina

He said, it’s because she kept going after an olympic season, like a rocket

 

[Lzbee]

I don't know for sure, no, as with anything regarding what the judges are thinking. So perhaps it's not so much that she was for sure deducted but rather the +3 GOE is not unreasonable for the jumps for which she received them even with the ! call. She only for +3 for the first 4Lz combo, and her final single 3Lz. The others all had GOEs below, granted there were major errors associated with them. But I thought the 4Lz combo and 3Lz was just about as good as she's ever done them, hitting good landing, air position, height and distance, and creative entry/exists, which when I follow the document that silveruskate linked above, +3, while the highest GOE any skater could get with a ! call, is within the judging criteria. I guess the question is whether you think Anna hit all those bullets for those two passes (at 0:55 and 3:10 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0ZRooEHg4) and which ones she didn't get as there is subjectivity (no measurement as to what qualifies as enough height distance, position, landing, etc.).

Edited: to include links and highlight the jumps mentioned

I would say that looking at Anna's protocols, the unclear edge wasn't taken into account since her goe was lower when she has been called. If we take judging in cup of China as an anomaly, she was called for unclear edges three other times and received +3 from one judge out of 27 judges. It could be said that her jump quality was not as good last season (when the other calls happened) but I personally don't think the difference is that big.

 

[eterialskater]

Yes it is an opinion. But I am not claiming the results were rigged to be that way

Well claiming Anna has an inside edge on her lutzes is the definition of disinformation. Are you claiming now Alyona has always had a perfect Lutz because she managed to get a clearer edge on them this year? Anna like Alyona had always had edge problems on her lutzes but they were never problematic like Medvedeva but you seem to be adamant Anna's edge problem are on the same level.

 

[lzxnl]

Well claiming Anna has an inside edge on her lutzes is the definition of disinformation. Are you claiming now Alyona has always had a perfect Lutz because she managed to get a clearer edge on them this year? Anna like Alyona had always had edge problems on her lutzes but they were never problematic like Medvedeva but you seem to be adamant Anna's edge problem are on the same level.

Why don't we agree that both of them have edge issues? And that someone doing five lutzes should be scrutinised for it?

 

[Lzbee]

Interestingly, Anna has been called on her flip in the past (last season) which I assume, is partly why she does so many lutzes...

 

[Jontor]

"What if" analysis - if 3A had gone clean in the free at Europeans

Trusova:
4LZ (fall) 4.75 --> 4LZ GOE+3 14.95 = +10.20
4Tx (<< fall) 1.52 --> 4Tx GOE+3 13.30 = +11.78
(Her 4Tx should have been in combination, but she added the Eu+3S later so no points lost there. Clever girl!)
Total +21.98
New total score 225.34+21.98 = 247.32

Kostornaia:
3LZx (fall) 2.54 --> 3LZx GOE+3 8.26 = +5.72
StepSq3 4.57 --> StepSq4 same GOE 5.40 = +0.83
Total +6.55
New total score 240.81+6.55 = 247.36

Shcherbakova:
4F (<) 9.30 --> 4F +GOE like it was before Tech Panel adjust 14.61 = +5.31
4LZ (<<fall) 1.95 --> 4LZ GOE+3 14.95 = +13.00
3LZ+3LOx (<) 10.72 --> 3LZ+3LOx +GOE like it was before Tech Panel adjust 13.14 = +2.42
StepSq3 4.34 --> StepSq4 same GOE 5.13 = +0.79
Total +21.52
New total score 237.76+21.52 = 259.28

Anna could afford the fall on the 4LZ, but she needed it to be at least < (total 247.93) or fully rotated (total 249.08)

This is only scores for the errors they made in the free. All other scores on jumps, spins, choreo, PCS and the score from the Short Program are the same.