Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[midori green]

I also think national feds need to make it so skaters are only eligible to compete at senior national championships the season before they're eligible for senior internationally (or even the season of...it's not like they haven't seen them in juniors the previous season to know how they compare to the current seniors for next season assignments). No more "Oh hooray for this young prodigy who isn't eligible for the Olympics for three more years". Doing that domestically just counteracts the "protection" the athletes are supposed to get from the international age increase.

 

[wakuwaku]

You’re right. They should also forbid quads and 3As.

It won't be fair though unless they will raise junior age from 13 to 15 as well. Why? Because every participant of certain age group tournaments should have more or less equal chances to enjoy victory in them, right? There shouldn't be age disrimination and young athlethes should be motivated by certain benefits victories and competing with equals can give them on each stage of their career - as a reward (psychological and material) for their hard work. Importance and understanding of possibility of such rewards is immense and can't be underestimating. It's natural right for every athlete.
However, with new rule in place in junior tournaments if quads/3As will be forbidden as well (for women category it's not even "if" - it's current reality for countries outside of Russia/Japan)- there will be zero winning chances for 13-14 y.o. Because there is HUGE difference in skating/presentation between 17-16 and 13-14 age groups - and judges can't help but give older skaters higher PCS mark. Else 13-14y.o. are forced to learn quads/3As as early as possible to have some chances to compete with much more sophisticated skating of their older rivals. Thus resulting in more injuries and health damage. It's direct opposite of what this rule was declared to do - and I strongly believe ISU officials are fully aware of such effect. And even with complex jumps older 15-16 y.o. juniors has the same abilities to train them with higher PCS bonus granted by growth of their experience to boot - still making winning tournaments by younger juniors pretty much impossible. In other words new age rule ISU is impementing - denies natural right for certain age group to compete in equal conditions/environment and be motivated to continue their hard work for many years. Simply put - it's an age discrimination.

But if they will raise junior age to 15 as well to make competing field among juniors more equal - it makes another problem. Except for the same unequality in novice age group now. How many skaters and their parents would like to be trapped inside their countries domestic field without any international fame until the age where most of them will be thinking about choosing education and changing career to more real and profitable endeavour? It will turn figure skating to the most unattractive type of sport as possible killing its potential for growth in a bud.

All the above makes me believe ISU decision was dictated by anything but real concern for skaters well-being - and calling special medical comission to declare danger of injuries magically turning to safe space if they start to label the same age differently is ridiculous bald farce everyone were eating with straight faces.

 

[lariko]

The trouble is that with women and men the abilities go in opposite directions. Women have harder time jumping in late teens, while men are gaining. In terms of PCS, men also gain much more visibly as they age, while plenty of women skate with highest PCSs at 13… I am sad to see the sport move away from the more of a unisex direction it was taking in 2018-2022. Now we are back to girls glide, boys jump…

 

[Regjohn1]

I also think national feds need to make it so skaters are only eligible to compete at senior national championships the season before they're eligible for senior internationally (or even the season of...it's not like they haven't seen them in juniors the previous season to know how they compare to the current seniors for next season assignments). No more "Oh hooray for this young prodigy who isn't eligible for the Olympics for three more years". Doing that domestically just counteracts the "protection" the athletes are supposed to get from the international age increase.

^This. With all the brouhaha about raising the minimum age internationally, I can't understand how US Nationals gets away with having no minimum age. It should be the same across the board for all international and national competitions.

 

[lariko]

^This. With all the brouhaha about raising the minimum age internationally, I can't understand how US Nationals gets away with having no minimum age. It should be the same across the board for all international and national competitions.

Most countries probably simply won’t have enough athletes to have a competition if they go 17+ for Nationals.

 

[Amei]

Most countries probably simply won’t have enough athletes to have a competition if they go 17+ for Nationals.

I'm not saying they need to make it 17+ but IMO having no minimum is weird, I like the idea that its restricted to 1-2 seasons before a skater is age-eligible to compete internationally as a senior, especially in big Feds where there's theoretically going to be the most pressure situations with attention/expectations for athletes.

 

[el henry]

I for one do not understand having skaters who cannot skate senior internationally skating senior at Nats. What's the point?

Then again, that almost never (in fact never) happens with the men, at least in the years I have been watching Nats. A skater may *choose* to skate junior, or go to junior worlds, but not because they are restricted from skating senior.

Let us remember skating is more than one discipline.

 

[beachmouse]

I for one do not understand having skaters who cannot skate senior internationally skating senior at Nats. What's the point?

The national champion is the best skater in the country.

It just happens to make sense to use the national championships as a selection event for Olympic or World Championship team selection- skating’s season is compressed enough it doesn’t make sense to have one event for national championships and another event for international team selection.

There are some larger sports in larger countries where national championships and international/Olympic selection events are two different things, but except for maybe Russia it doesn‘t really make sense to split that out in skating.

 

[icewhite]

Most countries probably simply won’t have enough athletes to have a competition if they go 17+ for Nationals.

Then of course the sport has a problem (and, I mean, it does). If you don't have enough athletes to hold a senior competition in a sport you can join forces with other countries (like the 3-country championships and stuff), and if that's not enough for even the bigger feds, the sport is dead. A sport that doesn't have any relevant number of adult athletes can be a hobby for teenagers, but it shouldn't be an Olympic sport.
Hopefully the people in the feds and unions realize that, now that at least a part of a "solution-package" has been enforced. The package is of course not a package yet, for now it is one singular measure that needs to be accomponied by other ones.

 

[lariko]

Then of course the sport has a problem (and, I mean, it does). If you don't have enough athletes to hold a senior competition in a sport you can join forces with other countries (like the 3-country championships and stuff), and if that's not enough for even the bigger feds, the sport is dead. A sport that doesn't have any relevant number of adult athletes can be a hobby for teenagers, but it shouldn't be an Olympic sport.
Hopefully the people in the feds and unions realize that, now that at least a part of a "solution-package" has been enforced. The package is of course not a package yet, for now it is one singular measure that needs to be accomponied by other ones.

I think national skating federations would defend the autonomy of their decision making. Thing is, deep fields are bad for figure skating, shallow fields are bad for it, older skaters are bad for it, younger skaters are bad for it… all we know that on international level it’s going to be 17+ for seniors.

 

[JimR]

15 and 16 year olds are still skating in ISU events, US Nationals, but funnily this has barely raised a mention this season unlike the last 5 or so seasons before.

 

[DancingCactus]

Actually it has, you just decided not to pay attention.
This for example is a whole thread about the issue.

 

[JimR]

Actually it has, you just decided not to pay attention.
This for example is a whole thread about the issue.

This is why I created the thread, everyone went silent on this issue.

 

[JimR]

16 year old Nina Pinzarrone was a revelation, but commentary said she had two hip fractures back in August.

This is quite disturbing.

This is what the age rules were trying to protect against happening. I just hope she hasn't been pushed to hard and will pay for this in later life.

Fingers crossed that she has responsible adults in her life.

 

[yume]

16 year old Nina Pinzarrone was a revelation, but commentary said she had two hip fractures back in August.

This is quite disturbing.

This is what the age rules were trying to protect against happening. I just hope she hasn't been pushed to hard and will pay for this in later life.

Fingers crossed that she has responsible adults in her life.

Age will never protect against injuries. No matter what ISU said.
If she came back just 4 months later (i think she did a challenger) i guess it wasn't that bad, at least i hope. She was one of my faves in JGPs last season.

 

[JimR]

Age will never protect against injuries. No matter what ISU said.
If she came back just 4 months later (i think she did a challenger) i guess it wasn't that bad, at least i hope. She was one of my faves in JGPs last season.

Yes, but she would likely not be putting her long term physical and psychological health at risk for junior medals. Certainly not risk another double fracture in her hips.

 

[Anna K.]

Let’s be frank about this one thing. The ISU rule change does not protect skaters. The ISU rule change protects ISU and IOC from more drugged minors in major figure skating events. And that’s it. It does not ban minors from doing sports. It does not regulate the training loads or training requirements for minors in any way. So, all ethical decisions are where they have always been: in hands of families and coaches of those children. And we can only hope that they cope. Because we want this beautiful sport to be still around and this is only possible to keep it around if training starts at a very early age.

Another thing that we need to maintain to keep this sport around is carrier longevity. What many in figure skating community hope for is that this rule change will have an indirect positive impact on longevity of figure skaters’ carriers by mitigating the risk of trauma as it lifts the pressure that an early carrier puts on vulnerable teenagers. This is a nice hope and, fingers crossed, it has a chance to become reality. In either case, we will see the effects in nearest 3-4 years.

I also fully appreciate that commentators focus on positive aspects of the ISU rule change instead of referring to the ugly incident that caused this change. However, we have this last generation of under-seventeens in senior competitions. And rightfully so, because otherwise their nearest carrier plans would be ruined by ISU decision. Their carriers will certainly develop in more brutal conditions than those of their just slightly younger teammates. We know that the main difference which makes these conditions brutal is the pressure from the media and the public. And, knowing this, do we want to use the rule change to put extra pressure on these kids/their teams for doing what was legal yesterday but will not be legal tomorrow? Do we think that, publicly demonizing their coaching teams and families, we will decrease the stress that these kids are under? How will it pull the pressure that they have already put on themselves? I think these are very good questions. Because these kids are tremendously talented and we want them to be in sport as long as possible. At least, this is what I want.

How ethical is such social media posting? I think this is the number one question which we should answer first and foremost before posting on threads like this.

 

[JimR]

Let’s be frank about this one thing. The ISU rule change does not protect skaters.

Sorry, are you saying Eric Radford is misguided and insincere? This is what he said last year when he made an impassioned appeal at the ISU congress:

“The life of an athlete is short and intense,” said Radford, an athlete representative for the body, the International Skating Union. “The experience in this short period of their lives sets the stage for the rest of their lives, physically, mentally and emotionally.”

“Is a medal worth risking the health of a child or young athlete?”

He's talking about the pursuit of a medal potentially being so dangerous it is risking the health of a young athlete.

He is as qualified to talk about this subject as anyone.

The ISU rule change protects ISU and IOC from more drugged minors in major figure skating events.

Sorry, but that is a completely baseless claim based on one positive test for what could be contamination for all we know (usually contamination in these cases if it's what I think you're referring to).

Keep in mind, that the whole Olympics team event debacle was created by the WADA lab failing to deliver the result within the 20 day limit. Of course, we've heard the excuses from the lab that there was a COVID outbreak, but this was two years in the pandemic not April 2020. Surely some kind of contingency plan would be in place if COVID was to put the lab out of action for a month. Clearly there wasn't.

WADA's lab had 20 days from late December to return the result but instead took 43 days I think. 20 days is the limit by the way, often the result would be returned in 7 days I imagine.

Let's say the result was returned mid-January as it was supposed to have, then Kamila would have had an opportunity to defend herself, test supplements, food, drinks, cosmetics, medication in her possession (which she was unable to do because she didn't arrive back in Moscow until late February).

Also, given Kamila is a protected person, she would have been entitled full confidentiality in this process. Unless the case was swiftly resolved, she would have been removed from the team event to avoid any kind of issues with handing out the medals. Russia could have put Shcherbakova or Trusova in her place and won gold easily. Likely she withdraws from the individual event citing injury I imagine. But full confidentiality is given to her during this process as a protected person is entitled.

The only way for this result to be essentially leaked publicly, was to allow her to compete at the Olympics, then once the team event was completed release the result of the positive test from December so that the team medal is then suddenly in dispute. From there people can figure out who the person who tested positive is because it will also impact on the individual event.

Genius. Or maybe just the most incredible coincidence in Olympic history.

And that’s it. It does not ban minors from doing sports. It does not regulate the training loads or training requirements for minors in any way. So, all ethical decisions are where they have always been: in hands of families and coaches of those children. And we can only hope that they cope. Because we want this beautiful sport to be still around and this is only possible to keep it around if training starts at a very early age.

Let us hope she has adults in her life who put her physical and psychological health above results because a double hip fracture just 7 months ago disturbs me and makes me question things like training loads and diet. I hope this is not an abusive situation, but a double hip fracture at 16 does make me worry.

 

[lariko]

Personally, I am all for following rules and for everyone having exactly the career they want and are ready for. While some athletes just don’t want to retire and take failures as incentive to fight harder, can take breaks etc, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a career that ends when college demands take over and new interests develop. They start skating and competing at an age when other interests have no chance to even developing. Most people find themselves between 16 and 20, though there are plenty of outliers. I rather watch hopeful young people than broken 25 and 28 yo's failing to recapture old glory like Boyang or Kvitelashvili. Powering through disasters in a hope of one awesome break through that doesn’t come... and then what? Restarting life at 30? With bitter memories of years upon years of failures? Not something I want to think about when watching competitions.

Given that FS is very niche in entertainment it's ridiculous to demand a burning passion and lifetime commitment from the athletes. Moreover when such qualities are not exactly rewarded with results or following. Look at people calling Mozalev a try hard or accountant on ice when the guy literally is all into figure skating for life

 

[el henry]

15 and 16 year olds are still skating in ISU events, US Nationals, but funnily this has barely raised a mention this season unlike the last 5 or so seasons before.

Why should it? They are grandfathered in and it won’t happen again.

Luckily, no one needs to cry or whine about bias here. Isn’t that great?

Of course, I watch the men, where absolutely no one who wants to consistently win World or Oly gold peaks by 20, let alone 16. Makes for more exciting viewing that way.