Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[yume]

The main reason why the increase of age limit was talked about since years in ISU congresses and in the fandom, was "the unfair biological advantage that 15yo skaters have over mature/adult skaters".
In other words, people were complaining about the fact that there was too much "pre-pubescent" looking skaters in seniors and that they were winning too much, probably because of their body. Not only they wanted to watch adult looking skaters but also they thought it was unfair to let skaters who could jump easier because of their tiny body, compete in seniors.

That was the reason. No one was talking about that "protecting young skaters" thing. The Beijing scandal was just the fire that ISU had douse urgently to salvage its image. So the increase was voted en masse. Since then, everyone repeat that argument like a mantra. I still fail to understand how the rule will protect young skaters but we will see. If those test results had been available even just two weeks before Beijing, i bet the age limit would still be 15 or increased to 16 as it was originally proposed by most parties.

 

[Anna K.]

I think this is exactly the point of this thread, to point out the hypocrisy of signing off on one thing, but doing another.

And the purpose of pointing out the hypocrisy is what?
Did you mean that feds should ban all under-17.y.o instantly with no transition period?
Or, did you mean that feds should not raise the age limit at all?

Just asking.

 

[Anna K.]

A total ban of quads and 3A in juniors would have been more efficient imo. I always wondered what was the logic behind forbidding quads in SP while skaters can attempt as much as they want in FS. Like, seriously. That's like telling your child they can't have a single ice cream during lunch (because too much sweet isn't good for the health) but they can have the whole pack during dinner.
Skaters and their coaches/fed will always do what it takes to win, even if it's a junior competition. Those competitions matter to them. We saw that this season with Shimada, Nakai, Kalin and others. Waiting to turn 17 and be allowed to compete in seniors won't stop them to train those elements from 11yo or earlier, because they can already win with them.
With a ban, the training on these elements would be less intense since they wouldn't had to be ready for a competition. No urgence. Skaters would start to practice them later.

They will need to do something with Ultra-Cs sooner or later and not just on junior but also on senior level. The current layout of FS jumping passes was formed in the era when quads were comparatively rare. Gradually replacing tripples with quads creates loads that nobody counted on when these technical requirements were developed.
I'm guessing this is the next thing that will be discussed in congresses year after year and put aside year after year. Until something dramatically bad will happen and ISU will be in need to save its image.

 

[Anna K.]

In “Chalked Up” (I know it’s gymnastics) Jen Sey talks about how the adults only cared about medals. She was forced to train while injured, sometimes severely so. She said no one cared if she’d be able to walk without pain from arthritis as an adult. (newsflash: she can’t).

In gymnastics, they have had it all. I remember 11.y.o. champions in early eighties. Not a pleasant sight but it's not about sight.

 

[yume]

They will need to do something with Ultra-Cs sooner or later and not just on junior but also on senior level. The current layout of FS jumping passes was formed in the era when quads were comparatively rare. Gradually replacing tripples with quads creates loads that nobody counted on when these technical requirements were developed.
I'm guessing this is the next thing that will be discussed in congresses year after year and put aside year after year. Until something dramatically bad will happen and ISU will be in need to save its image.

Probably later than sooner, at least on senior level.
Skaters allowed to compete now didn't need ultra-c this season and they won't need them for the next seasons probably. The ones with ultra-c will be blocked in juniors almost the whole cycle and the seniors eligible are not allowed to compete.
Most skaters are fine with the same 7 triples program. Even 6 triples, Hendrickx never needed to master the 3lo to be a world medalist. Watanabe is an exception but her chronic inconsistency makes her basically irrelevant.

And maybe ISU will want to see the results of the new age rule before doing anything.

Maybe in 2030-2034 quad, if something happens as you said.

 

[lilimum]

Probably later than sooner, at least on senior level.
Skaters allowed to compete now didn't need ultra-c this season and they won't need them for the next seasons probably. The ones with ultra-c will be blocked in juniors almost the whole cycle and the seniors eligible are not allowed to compete.
Most skaters are fine with the same 7 triples program. Even 6 triples, Hendrickx never needed to master the 3lo to be a world medalist. Watanabe is an exception but her chronic inconsistency makes her basically irrelevant.

And maybe ISU will want to see the results of the new age rule before doing anything.

Maybe in 2030-2034 quad, if something happens as you said.

If skater wouldn*t need Ultra-C, Jason Brown would be World Champion 2023, but he isn*t

 

[yume]

If skater wouldn*t need Ultra-C, Jason Brown would be World Champion 2023, but he isn*t

When we say skaters, we are essentially speaking about women. All this circus happened because of women skating.

 

[moonvine]

In gymnastics, they have had it all. I remember 11.y.o. champions in early eighties. Not a pleasant sight but it's not about sight.

They did fix many of their problems. Age limit for seniors is now 16. Many women compete and win Olympics in their 20s. Instead of having one try at the Olympics more and more women are competing in two. Being competitive for medals, not just glad to be there. Many women go on to have NCAA careers and have their college paid for and get to compete in front of 15,000 fans every weekend. Some even swap back and forth between NCAA and elite. I will never say they don’t have problems. But they are at least attempting to fix them.

 

[moonvine]

When we say skaters, we are essentially speaking about women. All this circus happened because of women skating.

Well, I think men are doing too many quads as well. “He who lands the most quads wins” is probably interesting to some. It is not to me. I’d like to see them devalued and spins, step sequences and choreo sequences given more points. And on a level 1-4 like every other move.

 

[moonvine]

They will need to do something with Ultra-Cs sooner or later and not just on junior but also on senior level. The current layout of FS jumping passes was formed in the era when quads were comparatively rare. Gradually replacing tripples with quads creates loads that nobody counted on when these technical requirements were developed.
I'm guessing this is the next thing that will be discussed in congresses year after year and put aside year after year. Until something dramatically bad will happen and ISU will be in need to save its image.

It’s weird. Jimmie Santee was saying years ago that the ISU had commissioned a study regarding the danger of quad twists in pairs. Shockingly, they discovered that if skaters are doing them who aren’t good at them, they are more dangerous. When skaters are doing then who are good at them, they are less dangerous. So they hemmed and hawed and finally devalued them to the point no one does them.

Ilia is speaking of doing quints. I don’t think they even have a value. Am I incorrect?

 

[icewhite]

Well, I think men are doing too many quads as well. “He who lands the most quads wins” is probably interesting to some. It is not to me. I’d like to see them devalued and spins, step sequences and choreo sequences given more points. And on a level 1-4 like every other move.

The values are fine. Judges just need to judge accordingly. The problem is much more when they give PCS according to the jump difficulty and success and when everyone gets the same points on their choreo sequence etc.

 

[Amei]

When we say skaters, we are essentially speaking about women. All this circus happened because of women skating.

If the ISU moves to ban/restrict quads and triple axels in juniors in the name of health, if they don't do it for both men and women its a big neon sign they are targeting Russians.

 

[yume]

Well, I think men are doing too many quads as well. “He who lands the most quads wins” is probably interesting to some. It is not to me.

What man, in recent seasons, won a major international competition with just quads/because he landed the most quads? Who?

I’d like to see them devalued and spins, step sequences and choreo sequences given more points. And on a level 1-4 like every other move.

They already got devaluated with the SoV. What kind of devaluation do you want? It's better to ban them at this point.

There are skaters without quads, especially one, who can easily finish in any top 6, beating people with 4-5 quads overall. If that isn't a balanced scoring system, i don't know what it is.

 

[surimi]

The values are fine. Judges just need to judge accordingly.

I'm not sure about spin values, actually. The vast majority of skaters get 0-1.50 in GOE in that score box on the screen, but you see completely different GOE in the box when quads are successfully landed: 2.50, 3.50, even 4.00 for the best IIRC... I love seeing good, fast, flexible, well-centered spins, and seeing them get like 0.5 point more than ones that are not so good, is just disappointing. I'd love to see them with the same GOE scale as jumps.
I agree on the rest.

 

[el henry]

What man, in recent seasons, won a major international competition with just quads/because he landed the most quads? Who?

They already got devaluated with the SoV. What kind of devaluation do you want? It's better to ban them at this point.

There are skaters without quads, especially one, who can easily finish in any top 6, beating people with 4-5 quads overall. If that isn't a balanced scoring system, i don't know what it is.

I can't speak for Moonvine, but what I would like to see:

1. Difficult spins, entries, steps with the same BV as a difficult jump.

2. Difficult spins, entries, steps, with the same range as jumps. To repeat myself, a spin is just as athletic, just as fascinating, just as *sporting* as a jump.

3. No cap on PCS scores.

No need to ban quads. A well done, tight airy quad as part of a complete program, is a wonderful thing. We just reward all the other equally athletic, equally sporting moves as much.

 

[icewhite]

If the ISU moves to ban/restrict quads and triple axels in juniors in the name of health, if they don't do it for both men and women its a big neon sign they are targeting Russians.

No, it's a sign of an outdated women's image.

 

[el henry]

In what universe is the ISU banning quads in juniors????

As much as I would love to see it, for men and women. Not happening. (ETA: and I think it should be equal. No quads in men's or women's SPs, in my ideal skating universe. Not the ISU's )

So we have the increased age limits, an excellent idea. Again, the perfect shall not be the enemy of the good.

 

[skylark]

While some athletes just don’t want to retire and take failures as incentive to fight harder, ..... I rather watch hopeful young people than broken 25 and 28 yo's failing to recapture old glory like Boyang or Kvitelashvili. Powering through disasters in a hope of one awesome break through that doesn’t come... and then what? Restarting life at 30? With bitter memories of years upon years of failures? Not something I want to think about when watching competitions.

What makes you think older athletes are only motivated by medals, scores or placements? What I see are athletes who retire at 30 or so, who are grateful for all the experiences that competitions brought them and feel fulfilled by the fact that they have been able to devote themselves to a sport that they love, and have been able to bring joy and pleasure to so many audiences, on top of that. I think you're projecting "bitter memories of years upon year of failures" onto them, unfairly. It isn't what I see at all.

I haven't gotten to watch Boyang much recently. But I can say that I still enjoy watching Morisi Kvitelashvilli. He takes the ice with a smile, and when he's on, he's very fun to watch. If he enjoys competing, and representing Georgia, and has a healthy attitude toward winning/losing and doesn't see winning as the be-all end-all of competing, why shouldn't he continue.

 

[JimR]

I think the ISU will bring in a limit or total ban on quads for women and juniors eventually.

This will depend on when Russia is allowed back. When Russia is allowed back depends on the strength of their women. If they look beatable, they will be allowed back immediately.

If they are allowed back, but instead of 15-17 year old Russian girls dominating we have 17-19 year old Russian girls dominating (presumably with triple axels and some quads), they will ban ultra c content for women.

It's quite simple really. Unfortunately, I don't think the ban will be motivated by a concern for athletes health even if the discussion is framed that way.

To put this into perspective, Petrosyan at the GP final jumped more ultra c than all the participants at the world championship combined (and they fell on every attempt). In fact, she lands more ultra c in one program than what the rest of the world achieved across every event of the entire season. This won't be tolerated.

The ban will be for the protection of the athletes!

But there were still many injured ISU skaters this season despite this.

 

[icewhite]

What other sports do you watch? As someone who mostly watches pro sports like football and cycling this debate feels surreal to me. I also watch for instance athletics, which is more similar to fs in terms of financing, and while the athletes tend to be a bit younger there than in football or cycling, they usually aren't 14, 15 or 16. They are mostly in their early, mid or end20s. Often enough in their 30s. To even talk about a "career" in the case of someone who "retires" before they are adults doesn't make much sense to me. That's not a career. That's like someone having finished university and then "retiring".