Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[lariko]

Why should it? They are grandfathered in and it won’t happen again.

Luckily, no one needs to cry or whine about bias here. Isn’t that great?

Of course, I watch the men, where absolutely no one who wants to consistently win World or Oly gold peaks by 20, let alone 16. Makes for more exciting viewing that way.

Not really, since both American and Japanese are using younger challengers and retirements happen early. Chen and Zhou both left early, and Malinin is hoping to medal early Japanese are not shy about Miura and Kagiyama as their flagships. And there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with men maturing later than women, it's just how it is. Or switching to watching junior women in the long run, since they are just better at this sport than senior women, because they can't count on significant strength or endurance gains like men by 20. I mean, obviously, there will always be fans who would only want to watch seniors, or only some disciplines, and let them enjoy their curtailed view of the whole for all it's worth.

 

[yume]

Personally, I am all for following rules and for everyone having exactly the career they want and are ready for. While some athletes just don’t want to retire and take failures as incentive to fight harder, can take breaks etc, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a career that ends when college demands take over and new interests develop. They start skating and competing at an age when other interests have no chance to even developing. Most people find themselves between 16 and 20, though there are plenty of outliers. I rather watch hopeful young people than broken 25 and 28 yo's failing to recapture old glory like Boyang or Kvitelashvili. Powering through disasters in a hope of one awesome break through that doesn’t come... and then what? Restarting life at 30? With bitter memories of years upon years of failures? Not something I want to think about when watching competitions.

Given that FS is very niche in entertainment it's ridiculous to demand a burning passion and lifetime commitment from the athletes. Moreover when such qualities are not exactly rewarded with results or following. Look at people calling Mozalev a try hard or accountant on ice when the guy literally is all into figure skating for life

This.
Not everybody wants to skate till 25/30, hurts their bodies and minds beyond repair, to show that they love figure skating. Some skaters have other plans. Life has so much more to offer. Even those who had "long careers" didn't especially want to skate that long. That's why Yuna Kim only did a grand total of 5 intl competitions in 2010-2014 quad and said she was relieved when she retired.

Unfortunately, i think some skaters are pressured to keep going. Even if they totally lack motivation.

I'm perfectly fine with my faves retiring, "early" or not, if that's what they want to.

 

[el henry]

Not really, since both American and Japanese are using younger challengers and retirements happen early. Chen and Zhou both left early, and Malinin is hoping to medal early Japanese are not shy about Miura and Kagiyama as their flagships. And there is nothing wrong with that. There is also nothing wrong with men maturing later than women, it's just how it is. Or switching to watching junior women in the long run, since they are just better at this sport than senior women, because they can't count on significant strength or endurance gains like men by 20. I mean, obviously, there will always be fans who would only want to watch seniors, or only some disciplines, and let them enjoy their curtailed view of the whole for all it's worth.

I didn't say they never won, Yuzuru was 19 at his first Oly gold I believe. And 23 at his second? Supporting the whole point, as far as I'm concerned: a GOAT who won two Olympic golds. In it for the long haul. .

For the most part, men skaters never *plan* on the "bright start burning out early" career trajectory (for me early burnout is a very boring thing to watch, but that's just me, it may be exciting to others)

If fans want to watch nothing but junior women, more power to them

 

[lariko]

This.
Not everybody wants to skate till 25/30, hurts their bodies and minds beyond repair, to show that they love figure skating. Some skaters have other plans. Life has so much more to offer. Even those who had "long careers" didn't especially want to skate that long. That's why Yuna Kim only did a grand total of 5 intl competitions in 2010-2014 quad and said she was relieved when she retired.

Unfortunately, i think some skaters are pressured to keep going. Even if they totally lack motivation.

I'm perfectly fine with my faves retiring, "early" or not, if that's what they want to.

Exactly, particularly when they found something they want to do. I love seeing them grow up and achieve the peak in their careers, I don't need to see struggles, break downs, excessive propping, pity PCSs etc. I trust them to know what they want and that mindset of competition circuit and very small world can't be easy to break free from to start with... they can use less external pressure to keep at it as is.

 

[lariko]

I didn't say they never won, Yuzuru was 19 at his first Oly gold I believe. And 23 at his second? Supporting the whole point, as far as I'm concerned: a GOAT who won two Olympic golds. In it for the long haul. .

For the most part, men skaters never *plan* on the "bright start burning out early" career trajectory (for me early burnout is a very boring thing to watch, but that's just me, it may be exciting to others)

If fans want to watch nothing but junior women, more power to them

I mean, I most respect fans who watch everything and have no predetermined notion of the one true pass a skater's career should take, and everything else is not interesting, but that's just me.

 

[surimi]

Or how about respecting both young and older athletes. If Alysa Liu, Vincent or Schcherbakova desire to quit competing by 20, it's their life, their priorities, I'm cool with their choice. But let's please pay equal respect to those who keep competing past the age of 25. Unless there's evidence they're pressured against their will by their federation to keep competing, I don't see why skaters like Boyang should be called 'broken' and accused of trying to regain their old glory. I'm sorry but you know them in person or something? Maybe they have something else going on in their life apart from FS, and keep competing simply because they enjoy it. If they earn/defend their international spots against the youngsters, good for them. I don't care what some individual prefers watching, all skaters deserve the same respect when talked about, no matter if they're teenagers or in their late 20s. And 'bitter memories'... please, give me a break. As if quitting against one's wishes couldn't cause 'what ifs' and regrets.

 

[snowflake]

Why should it? They are grandfathered in and it won’t happen again.

Luckily, no one needs to cry or whine about bias here. Isn’t that great?

Of course, I watch the men, where absolutely no one who wants to consistently win World or Oly gold peaks by 20, let alone 16. Makes for more exciting viewing that way.

Because it looks bad when federations who voted for the rule change still send 15/16 years old skaters to senior competitions.

100 federations voted in favor of:
Based on a report from the ISU Medical Commission and results from a survey conducted by the ISU Athletes Commission, the ISU Council concluded that for the sake of protecting the physical, mental health, and emotional well-being of Skaters, a gradual increase of the Senior category age limit in the Figure Skating Branch, from 15 years to 17 years was urgently needed.

No federation has to send 15/16 years old to senior competitions. Sure they do because their skaters benefit of skating as seniors as soon as possible. Some medaling already and six women and one man competing at senior worlds. Big advantage for them heading for next olympics.

 

[el henry]

Because it looks bad when federations who voted for the rule change still send 15/16 years old skaters to senior competitions.

100 federations voted in favor of:
Based on a report from the ISU Medical Commission and results from a survey conducted by the ISU Athletes Commission, the ISU Council concluded that for the sake of protecting the physical, mental health, and emotional well-being of Skaters, a gradual increase of the Senior category age limit in the Figure Skating Branch, from 15 years to 17 years was urgently needed.

No federation has to send 15/16 years old to senior competitions. Sure they do because their skaters benefit of skating as seniors as soon as possible. Some medaling already and six women and one man competing at senior worlds. Big advantage for them heading for next olympics.

I agree that no one should have been grandfathered.

Personally I think the age should be 17. I agree It absolutely is necessary for the physical, mental health and emotional well being of skaters. (was this bolded in the original, I don't know whether to keep it)

But I do not want the perfect be the enemy of the good, the good being the fact that the ISU finally did take some action, as imperfect as it is.

 

[snowflake]

I agree that no one should have been grandfathered.

Personally I think the age should be 1. I agree It absolutely is necessary for the physical, mental health and emotional well being of skaters. (was this bolded in the original, I don't know whether to keep it)

But I do not want the perfect be the enemy of the good, the good being the fact that the ISU finally did take some action, as imperfect as it is.

Not bolded: https://isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2022-4/29706-isu-faq-age-limit/file

My point is that feds who voted for it seem like they don't care enough not to send 15/16 years old to senior comps.

I understand that they send their best and it's within the rules. Still awkward.

 

[lariko]

Not bolded: https://isu.org/media-centre/press-releases/2022-4/29706-isu-faq-age-limit/file

My point is that feds who voted for it seem like they don't care enough not to send 15/16 years old to senior comps.

I understand that they send their best and it's within the rules. Still awkward.

I think this is exactly the point of this thread, to point out the hypocrisy of signing off on one thing, but doing another.

 

[yume]

Or how about respecting both young and older athletes. If Alysa Liu, Vincent or Schcherbakova desire to quit competing by 20, it's their life, their priorities, I'm cool with their choice. But let's please pay equal respect to those who keep competing past the age of 25. Unless there's evidence they're pressured against their will by their federation to keep competing, I don't see why skaters like Boyang should be called 'broken' and accused of trying to regain their old glory. I'm sorry but you know them in person or something? Maybe they have something else going on in their life apart from FS, and keep competing simply because they enjoy it. If they earn/defend their international spots against the youngsters, good for them. I don't care what some individual prefers watching, all skaters deserve the same respect when talked about, no matter if they're teenagers or in their late 20s. And 'bitter memories'... please, give me a break. As if quitting against one's wishes couldn't cause 'what ifs' and regrets.

Yes, let's respect all athletes, all careers, and all tastes. Let's not look down at juniors as if they were not working as much as seniors. And let's not look down at seniors who don't retire despite not having the results they worked for.
Let's not speak as if we had superior tastes than others or better behavior.

Because it looks bad when federations who voted for the rule change still send 15/16 years old skaters to senior competitions.

100 federations voted in favor of:
Based on a report from the ISU Medical Commission and results from a survey conducted by the ISU Athletes Commission, the ISU Council concluded that for the sake of protecting the physical, mental health, and emotional well-being of Skaters, a gradual increase of the Senior category age limit in the Figure Skating Branch, from 15 years to 17 years was urgently needed.

No federation has to send 15/16 years old to senior competitions. Sure they do because their skaters benefit of skating as seniors as soon as possible. Some medaling already and six women and one man competing at senior worlds. Big advantage for them heading for next olympics.

I'm sure Swiss fed is happy that Kimmy Repond turned 15yo early enough and that they are thrilled by her results and spots she won for them. I wonder if her physical and mental health was their priority. Where is Paganini btw?

Let’s be frank about this one thing. The ISU rule change does not protect skaters. The ISU rule change protects ISU and IOC from more drugged minors in major figure skating events. And that’s it.

Exactly.

Another thing that we need to maintain to keep this sport around is carrier longevity. What many in figure skating community hope for is that this rule change will have an indirect positive impact on longevity of figure skaters’ carriers by mitigating the risk of trauma as it lifts the pressure that an early carrier puts on vulnerable teenagers. This is a nice hope and, fingers crossed, it has a chance to become reality. In either case, we will see the effects in nearest 3-4 years.

A total ban of quads and 3A in juniors would have been more efficient imo. I always wondered what was the logic behind forbidding quads in SP while skaters can attempt as much as they want in FS. Like, seriously. That's like telling your child they can't have a single ice cream during lunch (because too much sweet isn't good for the health) but they can have the whole pack during dinner.
Skaters and their coaches/fed will always do what it takes to win, even if it's a junior competition. Those competitions matter to them. We saw that this season with Shimada, Nakai, Kalin and others. Waiting to turn 17 and be allowed to compete in seniors won't stop them to train those elements from 11yo or earlier, because they can already win with them.
With a ban, the training on these elements would be less intense since they wouldn't had to be ready for a competition. No urgence. Skaters would start to practice them later.

The only thing it will do is making those with the worst birth date, try to push till 21 and go to olys. Them getting spots will depend more on their competitors than their abilities imo.

 

[surimi]

Yes, let's respect all athletes, all careers, and all tastes. Let's not look down at juniors as if they were not working as much as seniors. And let's not look down at seniors who don't retire despite not having the results they worked for.
Let's not speak as if we had superior tastes than others or better behavior.

If you can see me here dissing older skaters and calling them broken because I don't enjoy watching them, I'll eat my hat. Same for younger skaters.

 

[lariko]

If you can see me here dissing older skaters and calling them broken because I don't enjoy watching them, I'll eat my hat. Same for younger skaters.

It's for their own protection, of course. So that feds don't push them beyond what's physically and mentally reasonable for the sake of the public who wants them to stay on for 20 years, because it’s interesting and they can't remember this many names.

 

[surimi]

It's for their own protection, of course. So that feds don't push them beyond what's physically and mentally reasonable for the sake of the public who wants them to stay on for 20 years, because it’s interesting and they can't remember this many names.

Fans dismissing skaters and making assumptions about them is protection? You've lost me there

 

[yume]

Fans dismissing skaters and making assumptions about them is protection? You've lost me there

It was snark.

If you can see me here dissing older skaters and calling them broken because I don't enjoy watching them, I'll eat my hat. Same for younger skaters.

I wasn't specifically speaking about you.

 

[moonvine]

16 year old Nina Pinzarrone was a revelation, but commentary said she had two hip fractures back in August.

This is quite disturbing.

This is what the age rules were trying to protect against happening. I just hope she hasn't been pushed to hard and will pay for this in later life.

Fingers crossed that she has responsible adults in her life.

In “Chalked Up” (I know it’s gymnastics) Jen Sey talks about how the adults only cared about medals. She was forced to train while injured, sometimes severely so. She said no one cared if she’d be able to walk without pain from arthritis as an adult. (newsflash: she can’t).

 

[moonvine]

Exactly, particularly when they found something they want to do. I love seeing them grow up and achieve the peak in their careers, I don't need to see struggles, break downs, excessive propping, pity PCSs etc. I trust them to know what they want and that mindset of competition circuit and very small world can't be easy to break free from to start with... they can use less external pressure to keep at it as is.

I don’t think there is “pity PCS.” They don’t get the PCS they deserve when they actually skate. They have to earn it in advance.

 

[moonvine]

Yes, let's respect all athletes, all careers, and all tastes. Let's not look down at juniors as if they were not working as much as seniors. And let's not look down at seniors who don't retire despite not having the results they worked for.
Let's not speak as if we had superior tastes than others or better behavior.

I'm sure Swiss fed is happy that Kimmy Repond turned 15yo early enough and that they are thrilled by her results and spots she won for them. I wonder if her physical and mental health was their priority. Where is Paganini btw?

Exactly.


A total ban of quads and 3A in juniors would have been more efficient imo. I always wondered what was the logic behind forbidding quads in SP while skaters can attempt as much as they want in FS. Like, seriously. That's like telling your child they can't have a single ice cream during lunch (because too much sweet isn't good for the health) but they can have the whole pack during dinner.
Skaters and their coaches/fed will always do what it takes to win, even if it's a junior competition. Those competitions matter to them. We saw that this season with Shimada, Nakai, Kalin and others. Waiting to turn 17 and be allowed to compete in seniors won't stop them to train those elements from 11yo or earlier, because they can already win with them.
With a ban, the training on these elements would be less intense since they wouldn't had to be ready for a competition. No urgence. Skaters would start to practice them later.

The only thing it will do is making those with the worst birth date, try to push till 21 and go to olys. Them getting spots will depend more on their competitors than their abilities imo.

I wish they would be devalued. By a lot.

 

[moonvine]

My memory is probably faulty but isn’t part of this because an athlete tested positive for a banned drug but couldn’t be held accountable because she was a “protected minor” under a certain age? Did I make that up in my head?

 

[Amei]

My memory is probably faulty but isn’t part of this because an athlete tested positive for a banned drug but couldn’t be held accountable because she was a “protected minor” under a certain age? Did I make that up in my head?

Increasing the age was something getting talked about/proposed before Beijing ever happened, Beijing and the highlight of the mess of the rules regarding under-16 athletes was probably just the nail in the coffin that the age increase got approved.