Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

Shanshani · Jun 11, 2018

Isn't it always the last 3 jumps that get the backloading bonus? In which case you can't put solo jumps after, or you won't get the bonus.

Under the new system, GOE is way more important than the backloading bonus. By my calculations, Alina's Olys score actually goes up despite the new backloading bonus rules due to the new GOE system.

Also, amusingly, in the competitions I looked at, the person who would have gotten screwed most by the new backloading bonus rule is Wakaba Higuchi. She loses 0.53 points off her SP and 0.49 points off her FS, enough to put her behind Carolina Kostner (who gets boosted due to her high GOEs) in 2018 Worlds. Apparently the Japanese fed didn't think about that when they proposed the new backloading rule? :shrug:

moriel · Jun 11, 2018

esteticlove said:
I actually tend to think that now Alina and her teammates will need the full backloading more than ever. Firstly, they are already trained for it and have the stamina. Secondly, if they backload only the winning combos and do the rest in the first half, as Shayuki said - the risk will be even bigger because once they fail to do the combination, they don't have any backup anymore and not only will they lose the bonus, but the combo as well. I believe it won't be a bad idea if they arrange the jump passes so that the money combinations can get the bonus and the rest of the jumps comes afterwards, including the usual repetition of a single jump, which can always be turned into a combination if the first one wasn't successful. They won't get another bonus, but the combo will be executed. And if I am not wrong, with the new GOE system it could be possible to compansate for the bonus with a high enough GOEs?? :scratch3:

There is no point in full backloading.
The combos must be among last 3 jumps to get the bonus, no matter how many second half jumps there are.

Well, they could backload an extra jump or two, so the layout is, for example:

3 solo jumps in first half
3 combos
solo jump

This way, if you miss one of the combos, you can add it to the last solo jump. If you dont miss, you still get bonus for 2 combos + 1 jump.

On the other hand, i dont think "already trained for it" is a big deal. They will do easier layouts just fine, they dont need to stick to what they have trained so far.

xeyra · Jun 11, 2018

Wonder if we'll be seeing a lot of layouts with 4 jumps / choreo/steps / 3 jumps with bonus (combos?) / spin / choreo/steps / spin / spin (or two spins before choreo/steps). Would make sure bonus jumps take place early in the second half.

Ares · Jun 11, 2018

Shayuki said:
It's actually a bigger risk to backload only the 3 combos because if you feel insecure about a landing you can't make up for it later.

It will be interesting to find out who decides to make a gamble. I don't expect anyone to put all their combinations last obviously as the risk / reward ratio is clearly unattractive with this set of rules.

esteticlove · Jun 11, 2018

gkelly said:
My understanding is that only the last 3 jump passes will get the bonus (assuming they all take place after the halfway point). In that case, the strategy you outline would not work. Jump pass 1 or 4 will get no bonus even if it's in the second half; only jump passes 5, 6, and 7.

Oh, ok! Then I was wrong, my bad. In this case my idea won't work. I just thought the first 3 jump passes after the 2nd half get the bonus (no idea where this comes from :biggrin:

)

zounger · Jun 11, 2018

esteticlove said:
Oh, ok! Then I was wrong, my bad. In this case my idea won't work. I just thought the first 3 jump passes after the 2nd half get the bonus (no idea where this comes from )

Actually, bacloading combination jumps become too risky at the level of stupidity, I will say. It's almost similar to consider someone brave to cross a highway with covered eyes. Is it brave to backload combination jumps with actually leaving you with one jumping pass in case of mistake?

For me not. Just doesn worth it. As I couldn't consider someone brave to cross the highway.

Mathman · Jun 11, 2018

zounger said:
For me not. Just doesn worth it. As I couldn't consider someone brave to cross the highway.

That's what is so intriguing about this whole discussion. Will anyone throw caution to the winds and go all in with backloaded combos? You might say that Alina Zagitova "charged across the highway blindfolded" as much as possible under the old rules. New rules or old, there is opportunity to grab a few extra tenths for anyone daring (foolhardy?) enough to go for it. No guts, no glory.

On the other hand, it's a big risk for only a point or two to show for it. Work on technique, skate cleanly -- that's the ticket. :yes:

zounger · Jun 11, 2018

Mathman said:
On the other hand, it's a big risk for only a point or two to show for it. Work on technique, skate cleanly -- that's the ticket. :yes:

Exactly what's the point to do it when you can put the same thing at the beginning of your program and gain that point with a possible +1 in GOE because your legs will be fresh.

I'm sure that Alina can do it or last years Alina because we don't know how she will be this season. Trusova can do it for example, she did 3 triple combinations at second part of her program after two quads. But there is no point, to gain what? one point out of 90 something?

esteticlove · Jun 11, 2018

zounger said:
Trusova can do it for example, she did 3 triple combinations at second part of her program after two quads. But there is no point, to gain what? one point out of 90 something?

Well, we have to wait until the beginning of the season to see what strategy Team Eteri will have chosen. But I must admit, I would be very excited if Alina decides to do her combos in the 2nd half. Yes, very risky but... it will be also a show-off moment :biggrin:

Mathman · Jun 11, 2018

zounger said:
Exactly what's the point to do it when you can put the same thing at the beginning of your program and gain that point with a possible +1 in GOE because your legs will be fresh...

To tell the truth I thought Zagitova's program last year was crazy, too, in terms of risk/reward, but she did it anyway. Maybe the judges will tend to give out higher GOEs to hard combinations performed in the second half, because, after all, they are hard combinations performed in the second half. Maybe the judges will give out higher PCSs because, look, she did hard combinations in the second half!

(Can't happen? Judges always give higher-than-deserved GOEs to average quads just because they are quads and they give higher-than-deserved PCSs to a program that contains quads compared to a program of similar quality without a quad. The justification? Quads are hard!))

Or maybe, as EsotericLove suggests above, skaters will want to do it anyway just for the "check this out, losers!" factor.

But yes, of course you are right. Skaters will in general not get too rambunctious in the backloading department. That was the ISU's whole purpose, for better r for worse, in instituting the rule change.

chopinskate · Jun 11, 2018

Mathman said:
Or maybe, as EsotericLove suggests above, skaters will want to do it anyway just for the "check this out, losers!" factor.

:agree: Seriously, if the skaters and the teams were really suggesting that all the backloading had some greater artistic purpose, or anything apart from gaining TES points, it's not like the system is stopping them. If backloading is a good thing to do with your program, well, better hope the judges actually score all PCS correctly, and give you a very good one.

chopinskate · Jun 11, 2018

This debate (or "debate" because it kind of isn't one) is a rather easy one to settle, when you consider that this really isn't about balance or anything else at all. It's simple gaming.

The judging won't ever be called out because all feds benefit somewhat by it, some a lot more than the others. So instead, the big ones try to limit ways the other feds' skaters can gain points, and they gang up.

Zagitova and her team backloaded to gain points, and was rewarded huge scores for her "consistency". The best solution would have been to fix the judging, but other feds benefit from it too. So instead, limit backloading. Done.

That's all there is to it.

moriel · Jun 11, 2018

chopinskate said:
:agree: Seriously, if the skaters and the teams were really suggesting that all the backloading had some greater artistic purpose, or anything apart from gaining TES points, it's not like the system is stopping them. If backloading is a good thing to do with your program, well, better hope the judges actually score all PCS correctly, and give you a very good one.

Its kinda tiring...
You know, pretty much no skaters will do something harder that does not give them extra points. (repeated by 10th time or so)

chopinskate · Jun 11, 2018

moriel said:
Its kinda tiring...
You know, pretty much no skaters will do something harder that does not give them extra points. (repeated by 10th time or so)

TBH, I agree. There's no incentive either through PCS or TES. It's not the solution. That post was partly in jest. It's what I'm arguing for the 4A, after all. But the real solution will never come to fruition.

It's why I said this:

If backloading is a good thing to do with your program, well, better hope the judges actually score all PCS correctly, and give you a very good one.

If the programs were suffering from the backloading, the solution would have been to lower the PCS. :shrug:

Baron Vladimir · Jun 11, 2018

chopinskate said:
:agree: Seriously, if the skaters and the teams were really suggesting that all the backloading had some greater artistic purpose, or anything apart from gaining TES points..

It doesnt give some special artistic purpose to Zagitova program itself, but it adds articism to the competition as a whole, by encouraging exploring of different possibilities. Thats the point!

chopinskate · Jun 11, 2018

Baron Vladimir said:
It doesnt give some special artistic purpose to Zagitovas program itself, but it adds articism to the competition as a whole, by encouraging exploring of different possibilities. Thats the point!

Doubtful.

And adding "articism" to the competition isn't a criteria the judges were overscoring her for, I'm sure about that much.

Baron Vladimir · Jun 11, 2018

chopinskate said:
Doubtful.

And adding "articism" to the competition isn't a criteria the judges were overscoring her for, I'm sure about that much.

I dont even know what this statement means instead of subjective perception of Alina Zagitova skating. This is not a discussion of Alinas scores but about the purpose of backloaded programmes in FS. At least to me. :biggrin:

chopinskate · Jun 11, 2018

I mean you brought up Zagitova's programs merit all by yourself, but :thumbsup:

Baron Vladimir · Jun 11, 2018

^^^
Because it was only fully backloaded programme in the whole competition. Again i'm judging this subject by the look on the whole competition. I dont think right view on the subject is from the point of agreement or disagreement with Zagitova win.

Mathman · Jun 11, 2018

moriel said:
Its kinda tiring...

You know, pretty much no skaters will do something harder that does not give them extra points. (repeated by 10th time or so)

So true, and so sad. Under the current scoring system no skater will lift a finger unless he gets a tenth of a point for doing so.

When Dick Button was skating he took great pride in upping the ante in terms of difficulty every season, even though he was going to win anyway.

1948 1st double Axel. (Also first flying camel spin.)
1949 First 2L0+2Lo combination.
1950 First 2Lo+2Lo+2Lo combo. (He did not get 1.70 points for each one, he just thought it was cool.)
1951 First 2A+2Lo combination and first 2A+2A sequence.
1952 First triple jump.

OT -- Speaking of 1948, was this the first 'Tano (aka, the Rada)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46bHRVndot0&t=1m35s

Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

Shanshani

moriel

xeyra

Constant state

Ares

esteticlove

zounger

Mathman

zounger

esteticlove

Mathman

chopinskate

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moriel

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Baron Vladimir

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Baron Vladimir

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