Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

[Seren]

I think we could see some interesting strategies going forward- it’s basically high risk vs high reward. Which skaters will risk putting their hardest jump elements in the second half? How will they strategize? I think it will make things interesting.

The biggest issue with both the bonus and the quad rule changes is that skating is more than jumps but the rules as they stand allow you to win by capitalizing on jumps and ignoring other aspects of skating.

 

[enzofv]

I think I like this rule better than the 2-4 alternative because it might reduce (even if by a little bit) the splats in the senior division.

 

[karne]

You know, I hear folks who would like to see more jumps and more "difficult" jumps emphasized say that they talk to everyone they know, all their friends and family, the folks cleaning up at Rink XYZ and the drunk on 3rd Street, and they all want to see jumps and athleticism underlined because it's a sport.

I say, I talk to everyone I know, all my friends and family, the folks cleaning up at Rink ABC and the drunk on 4th Street, and we all want to see artistry and skating skills and spins emphasized because it makes figure skating unique among sports.

No one wins this one. Best to just disagree as figure skating fans.....

Last year I was in a bunch of shows with other skaters for the general public.

the public did not give a rats patootie when one of our skaters went the length of the rink on one foot with a series of complex turns.

But they LOVED when the skater did a double toe.

They wanted jumps. They wanted spins. That was what they wanted, not more footwork. So we gave it to them.

 

[cohen-esque]

Last year I was in a bunch of shows with other skaters for the general public.

the public did not give a rats patootie when one of our skaters went the length of the rink on one foot with a series of complex turns.

But they LOVED when the skater did a double toe.

They wanted jumps. They wanted spins. That was what they wanted, not more footwork. So we gave it to them.

*Shrugs* This isn’t a universal preference. Spins I agree. People just expect jumps, and don’t get too excited over them in my opinion. My family aren’t exactly hardened fans but they wouldn’t agree. My mom thinks it’s cool how common the hard jumps are now but she also doesn’t watch it unless it’s with me anymore because she gets bored now and doesn’t care for it. She likes the men better than the women because she thinks they’re more fun. Ditto my grandma, my aunt, and even my Dad, and whatever friends, acquaintances, and random people I’ve ever watched skating with. The jumps are expected: they do go crazy for nice fast spins, and steps, and spirals. I was at a stars on ice years ago and people were generally okay with the no-jumps programs... (although I admit I was super excited when Sasha threw in a nice big 3+3 sequence right in front me better than any she ever did in competition.)

I’m sure that’s a reason I got into the sport because of Sasha and not because of, say, Irina or Tim Goebel. My friends though it was neat because they wished they could go and dance on the ice like that, not because the jumps. My roommate two-three years ago watched some events with me and all of his comments about who he liked and who was the best came during spins or sequences; no reaction to jumps except Liza’s 3A attempt which he could tell was impressive.

One of my mom’s (and the crowd’s, from the reaction she got) favorite skaters at Boston Worlds was Amy Lin, and it’s not because anyone was wowed by her jumps. I remember a lot of screaming and cheering for choreography sequences and a lot of polite clapping for jumps, in general. And I remember in 2014, having just seen Adelina and blissfully unaware of controversy, my mom and her boyfriend both stirred during Yuna and at one point my mom said, and I quote, “oh, yeah. There’s your Olympic champion...” but it was after the steps and the dramatic choreographed pause, not the 3Lz+3T.

 

[narcissa]

And I remember in 2014, having just seen Adelina and blissfully unaware of controversy, my mom and her boyfriend both stirred during Yuna and at one point my mom said, and I quote, “oh, yeah. There’s your Olympic champion...” but it was after the steps and the dramatic choreographed pause, not the 3Lz+3T.

I watched it with friends and we all had the same thought!

 

[Izabela]

"Credit for highlight distribution" has always been the stated reason for the bonus.

Under 6.0, frontloading was a so-so issue: lots of 5-2 or 5-3 layouts, though I don't see why those should bother anyone who doesn't mind a 2-5 layout, but plenty of 4-3 or 3-4 layouts as well and sometimes even more backloaded. There was at least as much variety as today. Commentators didn't really get excited over “second-half" jumps for their own sake very often but they did tend to get excited over, and mention the difficulty and risk of, late-in-the-program jumps (like, a 3Lz as the last triple, or Tara's 3T+1Lo+3S).

But I do think difficulty informed the decision somewhat, because the bonus was originally restricted to the FS. The short, with only three jumping passes, didn't originally have a backloading bonus, despite the fact that (partly due to the nature of the SP and the need to skate cleanly and often to minimize risk) frontloading was always more of an issue in the SP than it was in the free skate. You saw a lot of layouts like:

• Combo
• Solo Triple
• 2A
• Spin
• Steps/Spirals
• Spin
• Spin

And so eventually (not until 2011, I think), the ISU introduced the bonus in the short program, too. It was very obviously *not* to reward difficulty, but to stop skaters from doing all their jumps in a row in one half of the program... and the current restriction makes perfect sense in light of the rule's history and intent, even if I liked Canada's less stringent version more.

Thanks! This is very informative. I was always under the impression that they introduced the halfway bonus in the LP first before the SP because the “imbalancness in terms of jumps” is more noticeable in the LP on the acount of it being well, longer. That frontoading is more prominent in the short is news to be. But all in all, yes absolutely. This new rule is simply in line to the history of this particular part of scoring system and not primarily to award skaters in terms of, or as what some narrative suggests, at the expense of, difficulty.

In terms of what aspect of the sport people want to watch/see more, it will be interesting to know which pool of skaters drew in new fans the most and see what commonality these skaters have that made fs attractive to the people who would otherwise not watch it. Though I wager it will be less about jumps and spins, and more to do with how the entire program or the entire performance of those skaters affected/moved/engaged the audience.

 

[Mathman]

I don't agree with this at all! They should just be judged accurately. If you can only jump quads - Go ahead and jump quads! Just receive extremely low PCS if you do nothing else, don't get scored 90+ PCS. Solved!

Why don't we allow the skaters play to their strengths and rather force everyone into the same mold?

There are lots of opinions about what a figure skating competition should be. But we do have to acknowledge, as a matter of actual fact, that the ISU has been pretty consistent in its overall intention ever since the "well-balanced" program concept was introduced in 1984.

I think the sports model is the decathlon. Yes, one athlete might be better at the pole vault and another can run faster in the 400 meters. Still, the point system is deliberately arranged so that in order to win you have to be good at everything, or else very good at several things and OK at all the others. When you win the Olympic decathlon you win the title of the "best overall athlete in the world in track and field."

 

[VegMom]

If the goal is 'well balanced' then it seems like the bonus should be given to half the jumps in the second half rather than giving it to fewer than half.

The way they've done it now skews to make programs slightly 'front-loaded.' At least it does that for the skaters who have less endurance. I honestly don't buy the premise that jumps are much harder in the second half of a program than in the first half. I just don't think that true athletes get tired quite so quickly.

But I feel if they really have a goal of making the programs 'well balanced' and they define that by distributing jumps evenly throughout, then they should just require that. For instance, just make a rule that there needs to be a jump in each quarter of the program.

 

[moriel]

If the goal is well balanced, then the bonus should be given in PCs, as in "scoring correctly, dear judges", which they dont seem capable of.

Overall, I dont understand this obsession with balance. In art, the balance as some people here define it (lets say a 4-3 program being balanced and a 0-7 program being unbalanced) is not even a thing, there are many great works that are not balanced at all.
Why is it such a major deal in FS, why do things have to be balanced? Why lack of balance is automatically bad?

"Asymmetrical balance" is a thing too

 

[yyyskate]

in show. general public cheer for jumps (be it quad or double) and spins (specially when it is fast rotation not necessary more difficult) are cheering for very well known figure skating tech elements (figure skating tricks), that is a tradition, does not mean they do not detect/sense difference in performance levels.
Audience could be completely absorbed in a performance with no cheering at all.
So saying that casual viewers only cheering for jumps and spins is the indicator they only care about/like those things is not accurate.
my personal experience is that casual viewers can easily feel a great performance and been touched by it, but at times have problems differentiating triple jumps from quad jumps or easier type of jumps to more difficult type of jumps.

 

[OS]

If the goal is well balanced, then the bonus should be given in PCs, as in "scoring correctly, dear judges", which they don't seem capable of.

Overall, I dont understand this obsession with balance. In art, the balance as some people here define it (lets say a 4-3 program being balanced and a 0-7 program being unbalanced) is not even a thing, there are many great works that are not balanced at all.
Why is it such a major deal in FS, why do things have to be balanced? Why lack of balance is automatically bad?

"Asymmetrical balance" is a thing too

Asymmetrical balance can be a style, but so much ... I doubt Alina/Eteri backload because of 'Arrrrt'... or any thought of deep emotional intellectual reasoning... just saying.

However, if you have someone who generally doesn't backload like Kostner decides to all of a sudden experiment with backloading by creating a genuine piece of choreography that designed to demonstrate backloading can work with the music program without the bipolar effect. Then I'd agree with you.

The problem is when you have an established sporting history, a guideline and a standard belief a well-designed program is the one that is able demonstrate balanced and well-roundedness (Check out Yuna Kim's Sr Debut El Tang De Roxanne for example, how it places elements using every location of the rink, ice coverage, multi-directional skating, variance in transitions, spaced out, integrated elements in coherence with the music.), you deserve to get rewarded in high PCS.

You can't all of a sudden change the rules for just one person contrary to everyone else who have been faithfully following the guideline when designing their programs - based on years of established conventions ISU told everyone. In any case, it doesn't matter, the fact they are making such a big deal now would suggest imbalanced is to be discouraged. And IMHO it was wrong PCS had been rewarded so highly.

There's no reason Alina should stop backload since it is a strategy seems imprinted on Eteri's young skaters like all those tanos arms transitions. It will however be interesting to see if such an obvious point crunching strategy would continue to gather good PCS. Or is it only applicable selectively?

 

[Mathman]

Overall, I dont understand this obsession with balance. ... Why lack of balance is automatically bad?

That's a good question. I think the answer is what OS said.

The problem is when you have an established sporting history, a guideline and a standard [belief] ...

In common with all self-proclaimed regulatory and oversight bodies, the ISU is in general quite conservative in protecting the historical integrity of the sport. They just are not going to suddenly go off the deep end, and say, "Yeah, we used to think that balance was good, but we were all wet." This is especially the case in a high-class (ladies and) gentlemen's sport like figure skating. (I can imagine how many heart attacks there were in ISU circles when they got rid of figures. ))

Here is the wording from the official 2004 documents, the first year of the Code of Points.

m) In the Free Program of Single Skating the base values for all jumps started in the second half of the
program will be multiplied by a special factor 1.1 in order to give credit for even distribution of difficulties
in the program.

From the very inception, the rule had this built-in assumption that it is good to achieve an "even distribution of difficulties." A program that has a hard half and an easy half less not so desirable. Why not? I don't think the ISU ever spelled it out. It just seemed obvious to them back then.

 

[moriel]

Asymmetrical balance can be a style, but so much ... I doubt Alina/Eteri backload because of 'Arrrrt'... or any thought of deep emotional intellectual reasoning... just saying.

However, if you have someone who generally doesn't backload like Kostner decides to all of a sudden experiment with backloading by creating a genuine piece of choreography that designed to demonstrate backloading can work with the music program without the bipolar effect. Then I'd agree with you.

The problem is when you have an established sporting history, a guideline and a standard believe a well-designed program is the one that is able demonstrate balanced and well-roundedness (Check out Yuna Kim's Sr Debut El Tang De Roxanne for example, how it places elements using every location of the rink, ice coverage, multi-directional skating, variance in transitions, spaced out, integrated elements in coherence with the music.), you deserve to get rewarded in high PCS.

You can't all of a sudden change the rules for just one person contrary to everyone else who have been faithfully following the guideline when designing their programs - based on years of established conventions ISU told everyone. In any case, it doesn't matter, the fact they are making such a big deal now would suggest imbalanced is to be discouraged. And IMHO it was wrong PCS had been rewarded so highly.

There's no reason Alina should stop backload since it is a strategy seems imprinted on Eteri's young skaters like all those tanos arms transitions. It will however be interesting to see if such an obvious point crunching strategy would continue to gather good PCS. Or is it only applicable selectively?

But I too doubt that the skaters who don't backload do it because of "Arrrrt" or any thought of deep emotional intellectual reasoning... Just saying, they don't backload because they cant.

"a guideline and a standard believe a well-designed program" What guidelines? We have rules, and that is it. If anything, I am happy with any skater who ignores those unwritten guidelines and makes something different.

"You can't all of a sudden change the rules for just one person" I agree. It is pretty silly to change rules out of sudden because lets say 2 skaters backload.

There are all reasons for ALina to stop backloading. Why would any competitive skater backload if it is not rewarded? I mean, take extra jumps for example. Why don't skaters do a 2-2-2-2-2-2-2 combo, or a 3-1-3-1-3 combo? Some of them can. There is no reason skaters shouldnt experiment with those - except they don't for some reason.

 

[chuckm]

Fact is, backloading backfired big time on Alina at Worlds 2018 because she was too exhausted to execute all those tough jumps at the end of the program. She just pooped out after an extremely long season, her first as a senior skater. Even a 15-yo can run out of energy.

Anyway, I'm glad there's no longer a bonus for extreme backloading and for overdone tanos. Now we can argue endlessly and uselessly about expanded GOE and its misuse by judges.

 

[Mathman]

Fact is, backloading backfired big time on Alina at Worlds 2018 because she was too exhausted to execute all those tough jumps at the end of the program.

Well, that was kind of the point. Big risk, big reward. Under the new rules you take half the risk and receive half the reward.

 

[Shayuki]

Well, that was kind of the point. Big risk, big reward. Under the new rules you take half the risk and receive half the reward.

It's actually a bigger risk to backload only the 3 combos because if you feel insecure about a landing you can't make up for it later.

 

[skatenewbie]

It's actually a bigger risk to backload only the 3 combos because if you feel insecure about a landing you can't make up for it later.

then you could backload another jump, not the combo. But you got less point. Its the skater/coach choice

 

[Shanshani]

It's worth noting that I recalculated the results of Olys using the new backloading rules and scale of values (which you can see in the thread about rescoring), and it didn't change the top 6 placements at all. Alina does not need back loading to win.

 

[esteticlove]

I actually tend to think that now Alina and her teammates will need the full backloading more than ever. Firstly, they are already trained for it and have the stamina. Secondly, if they backload only the winning combos and do the rest in the first half, as Shayuki said - the risk will be even bigger because once they fail to do the combination, they don't have any backup anymore and not only will they lose the bonus, but the combo as well. I believe it won't be a bad idea if they arrange the jump passes so that the money combinations can get the bonus and the rest of the jumps comes afterwards, including the usual repetition of a single jump, which can always be turned into a combination if the first one wasn't successful. They won't get another bonus, but the combo will be executed. And if I am not wrong, with the new GOE system it could be possible to compansate for the bonus with a high enough GOEs?? :scratch3:

 

[gkelly]

I believe it won't be a bad idea if they arrange the jump passes so that the money combinations can get the bonus and the rest of the jumps comes afterwards, including the usual repetition of a single jump, which can always be turned into a combination if the first one wasn't successful. They won't get another bonus, but the combo will be executed.

My understanding is that only the last 3 jump passes will get the bonus (assuming they all take place after the halfway point). In that case, the strategy you outline would not work. Jump pass 1 or 4 will get no bonus even if it's in the second half; only jump passes 5, 6, and 7.

And if I am not wrong, with the new GOE system it could be possible to compansate for the bonus with a high enough GOEs?? :scratch3:

Yes, it should.

Although that was not a stated reason for the bonus, I think of the bonus as kind of compensation for the likely lower GOE of jumps placed later in the program -- a kind compensation for not frontloading. So it would be the same principle in reverse.