Ethics and "young" skaters at ISU events

[icewhite]

I think the ISU will bring in a limit or total ban on quads for women and juniors eventually.

This will depend on when Russia is allowed back. When Russia is allowed back depends on the strength of their women. If they look beatable, they will be allowed back immediately.

If they are allowed back, but instead of 15-17 year old Russian girls dominating we have 17-19 year old Russian girls dominating (presumably with triple axels and some quads), they will ban ultra c content for women.

It's quite simple really.

Are you the figure skating account of Lavrov?

 

[yume]

They did fix many of their problems. Age limit for seniors is now 16. Many women compete and win Olympics in their 20s. Instead of having one try at the Olympics more and more women are competing in two. Being competitive for medals, not just glad to be there. Many women go on to have NCAA careers and have their college paid for and get to compete in front of 15,000 fans every weekend. Some even swap back and forth between NCAA and elite. I will never say they don’t have problems. But they are at least attempting to fix them.

I wonder, for you, is all of this the results of the new age limit (which is 16 in the year, meaning that 15yo can compete) or the results of other decisions + the decline of some feds?

 

[snowflake]

I think this is exactly the point of this thread, to point out the hypocrisy of signing off on one thing, but doing another.

exactly

The main reason why the increase of age limit was talked about since years in ISU congresses and in the fandom, was "the unfair biological advantage that 15yo skaters have over mature/adult skaters".
In other words, people were complaining about the fact that there was too much "pre-pubescent" looking skaters in seniors and that they were winning too much, probably because of their body. Not only they wanted to watch adult looking skaters but also they thought it was unfair to let skaters who could jump easier because of their tiny body, compete in seniors.

That was the reason. No one was talking about that "protecting young skaters" thing. The Beijing scandal was just the fire that ISU had douse urgently to salvage its image. So the increase was voted en masse. Since then, everyone repeat that argument like a mantra. I still fail to understand how the rule will protect young skaters but we will see. If those test results had been available even just two weeks before Beijing, i bet the age limit would still be 15 or increased to 16 as it was originally proposed by most parties.

True, though I also remember a lot of talk about physical damage. Actually I heard a commentator 8 years back or some such saying ISU was about to do a survey on how training big jumps affects a young growing body. Was about men then, but I never saw a report. The new age rule was voted for because of a medical report. I don’t know where to see that either.

 

[yume]

What other sports do you watch? As someone who mostly watches pro sports like football and cycling this debate feels surreal to me. I also watch for instance athletics, which is more similar to fs in terms of financing, and while the athletes tend to be a bit younger there than in football or cycling, they usually aren't 14, 15 or 16. They are mostly in their early, mid or end20s. Often enough in their 30s. To even talk about a "career" in the case of someone who "retires" before they are adults doesn't make much sense to me. That's not a career. That's like someone having finished university and then "retiring".

But those sports are very different from figure skating. I would understand a comparison with gymnastics (though it still is different), but football and athletics don't have the same impact on the body than figure skating.
There never was and will never be a Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce or Allyson Félix in figure skating, at least in singles. Athletes in their mid-30s winning medals/titles, after birthing. Doing that by beating much younger and tough competitors. Unless we go back in 1930s or 1940s maybe.

Football is even more drastically different.

I don't watch football, athletics or even tennis for the same reasons i watch figure skating. I don't get why this debate isn't valid because age of retirement is different in other sports. They are OTHER sports.

 

[moonvine]

What man, in recent seasons, won a major international competition with just quads/because he landed the most quads? Who?

They already got devaluated with the SoV. What kind of devaluation do you want? It's better to ban them at this point.

There are skaters without quads, especially one, who can easily finish in any top 6, beating people with 4-5 quads overall. If that isn't a balanced scoring system, i don't know what it is.

You’re talking about ending up in the top 6. I’m talking about winning.

 

[yume]

You’re talking about ending up in the top 6. I’m talking about winning.

Winning in men with only triples? Better to play Marty McFly and go back in 2010 when men (and they were a few) were mostly attempting one quad. Or pray so men will have the same luck than women and the biggest scorers will suddenly disappear.

I don't think ISU will ever do that but i will wait that day when a spin, step and choreo sequence will have the same potential scoring than a quad. Meaning that quads won't be attempted anymore. Why having a bigger risk of injury when you can score the same with a spin?

For the moment i'm perfectly ok with the men that are winning. Most are complete skaters with balanced programs. High technical content + high performance level. The best combo.

 

[icewhite]

But those sports are very different from figure skating. I would understand a comparison with gymnastics (though it still is different), but football and athletics don't have the same impact on the body than figure skating.
There never was and will never be a Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce or Allyson Félix in figure skating, at least in singles. Athletes in their mid-30s winning medals/titles, after birthing. Doing that by beating much younger and tough competitors. Unless we go back in 1930s or 1940s maybe.

Football is even more drastically different.

I don't watch football, athletics or even tennis for the same reasons i watch figure skating. I don't get why this debate isn't valid because age of retirement is different in other sports. They are OTHER sports.

Of course they are different sports. My point was that I struggle to see any other sport that thinks it is normal to have a peak age of 15/16 and teenagers retiring after their "career", apart from gymnastics - but gymnastics has also changed now. To put it bluntly it is abnormal.

 

[yume]

Of course they are different sports. My point was that I struggle to see any other sport that thinks it is normal to have a peak age of 15/16 and teenagers retiring after their "career"

Probably skateboarding, which has 12yo and 13yo olympic medallists.

apart from gymnastics - but gymnastics has also changed now. To put it bluntly it is abnormal.

I think that if we take global numbers, figure skating average retirement age is the same than gymnastics. As the average age of medallists. It's when we look at the top that the age decrease. The median age for AA olys gold medallists in women is 17, not different from figure skating.
If people were not so focused on women skating and especially Russians, they would see that in fact in all the others countries, most skaters retire at the "normal age" and that the sport doesn't have that big of a longevity problem. I won't talk about the causes of short longevity in Russia since people don't accept any other causes than injuries.

There always have been competitive 20+ skaters. Figure skating isn't only women skating, women skating isn't only Russian women skating, Russian women skating isn't only Eteri's school. If everyone had that in mind, other disciplines would not suffer from the consequences of a rule adopted mostly because and for a sole discipline.

 

[lilimum]

Probably skateboarding, which has 12yo and 13yo olympic medallists.

I think that if we take global numbers, figure skating average retirement age is the same than gymnastics. As the average age of medallists. It's when we look at the top that the age decrease. The median age for AA olys gold medallists in women is 17, not different from figure skating.
If people were not so focused on women skating and especially Russians, they would see that in fact in all the others countries, most skaters retire at the "normal age" and that the sport doesn't have that big of a longevity problem. I won't talk about the causes of short longevity in Russia since people don't accept any other causes than injuries.

There always have been competitive 20+ skaters. Figure skating isn't only women skating, women skating isn't only Russian women skating, Russian women skating isn't only Eteri's school. If everyone had that in mind, other disciplines would not suffer from the consequences of a rule adopted mostly because and for a sole discipline.

I am involved in figure skating, athletics and football through my kids. In all 3 sports there are injuries. But only in figure skating there is a hugh number of kids that have to stop with their sport for health reasons. Mainly problems with the spine and recurring stress fractures. In athletics for example it is forbidden to practice triple jump unitl the age of 16 because of the impact on bones and joints. My daughter was just laughing about this because se said triple jump is nothing compared to even doubles in figure skating.

 

[yume]

I am involved in figure skating, athletics and football through my kids. In all 3 sports there are injuries. But only in figure skating there is a hugh number of kids that have to stop with their sport for health reasons. Mainly problems with the spine and recurring stress fractures. In athletics for example it is forbidden to practice triple jump unitl the age of 16 because of the impact on bones and joints. My daughter was just laughing about this because se said triple jump is nothing compared to even doubles in figure skating.

That's why banning the hardest jumps would produce more effect than banning under 17 skaters.

If the ISU moves to ban/restrict quads and triple axels in juniors in the name of health, if they don't do it for both men and women its a big neon sign they are targeting Russians.

No, it's a sign of an outdated women's image.

There is already women-only restrictions in SP for both juniors (no solo 3A) and seniors (no quads). They can do it.

 

[skatesofgold]

In gymnastics, they have had it all. I remember 11.y.o. champions in early eighties. Not a pleasant sight but it's not about sight.

The age limit for senior gymnasts in the 1980s was 15 by December 31. Not sure what 11 year olds you're talking about. There was some age falsification of 13 year olds, but definitely not 11.

 

[skatesofgold]

But those sports are very different from figure skating. I would understand a comparison with gymnastics (though it still is different), but football and athletics don't have the same impact on the body than figure skating.
There never was and will never be a Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce or Allyson Félix in figure skating, at least in singles. Athletes in their mid-30s winning medals/titles, after birthing. Doing that by beating much younger and tough competitors. Unless we go back in 1930s or 1940s maybe.

Football is even more drastically different.

I don't watch football, athletics or even tennis for the same reasons i watch figure skating. I don't get why this debate isn't valid because age of retirement is different in other sports. They are OTHER sports.

There's also more money available in sports like American football, basketball, hockey, and soccer, especially for men You can make a career out of it. Most Olympic sports (with the exceptions of maybe track and tennis) if you're going to continue into late 20s or 30s need to have a supplementary income. I've heard the stories of athletes in less popular Olympic sports like archery and shooting.

 

[Amei]

There is already women-only restrictions in SP for both juniors (no solo 3A) and seniors (no quads). They can do it.

I didn't say they couldn't do it, I said if they don't do it for both when they say they are banning them for "health" reasons then it's obvious its being done to target Russians (given that Russian girls are the females doing quads). They either have to do it across the board to hide behind their lie that its about health or get called out for it.

 

[Anna K.]

The age limit for senior gymnasts in the 1980s was 15 by December 31. Not sure what 11 year olds you're talking about. There was some age falsification of 13 year olds, but definitely not 11.

I'm not sure either about what 11.y.o. I'm talking about because it was long ago.
However, it might be not just a dream. I looked up Wiki and it says that participation of younger gymnasts was official although deemed exceptional:

By the late 1970s, Federations occasionally requested permission to allow slightly underage athletes to compete as seniors. One such example is that of Canadian gymnast Karen Kelsall, who legally competed in the 1976 Olympics at the age of 13. At the time, gymnasts had to turn 14 by the start of the Games to be eligible. Kelsall, with her December 1962 birthday, was five months shy of the requirement but was turning 14 within the Olympic year, and was granted a special exemption by the FIG to compete. Such exemptions were not automatic, however: American gymnast Tracee Talavera, who was named to the United States team for the 1979 World Championships, was deemed ineligible to compete due to her age of 12+1⁄2 years.[5][6]

In response to the changing demands of the sport, at the 58th Congress of the FIG, held in July 1980 just before the Moscow Olympics, the minimum age was raised from 14 to 15. Under this rule, which went into effect in 1981, gymnasts were required to turn at least 15 years of age in the calendar year to compete in senior-level events. This age requirement remained in place until 1997, when it was raised one more year, from 15 to 16

 

[JimR]

There's also more money available in sports like American football, basketball, hockey, and soccer, especially for men You can make a career out of it. Most Olympic sports (with the exceptions of maybe track and tennis) if you're going to continue into late 20s or 30s need to have a supplementary income. I've heard the stories of athletes in less popular Olympic sports like archery and shooting.

Plus figure skating is probably one of the most expensive sports. Maybe only motor racing or something like equestrian costs more. Eventually some parents say enough you will have to pay for it yourself if you want to continue.

So enormous expense, limited earning opportunties, risk of injury possibly on par with contact sports, opportunity cost of deferring education, enormous time committment since it's a precision sport.

 

[beachmouse]

Personally, I am all for following rules and for everyone having exactly the career they want and are ready for. While some athletes just don’t want to retire and take failures as incentive to fight harder, can take breaks etc, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a career that ends when college demands take over and new interests develop. They start skating and competing at an age when other interests have no chance to even developing. Most people find themselves between 16 and 20, though there are plenty of outliers. I rather watch hopeful young people than broken 25 and 28 yo's failing to recapture old glory like Boyang or Kvitelashvili. Powering through disasters in a hope of one awesome break through that doesn’t come... and then what? Restarting life at 30? With bitter memories of years upon years of failures? Not something I want to think about when watching competitions.

At the international level, they’ve still got to be good enough to hit event qualifying requirements even if they aren’t quite what they once were. As long as they meet those standards better than the other options from their country, enjoy going ot work every day, and can cover their expenses then why not keep gong in a career they love?

That was the reason. No one was talking about that "protecting young skaters" thing. The Beijing scandal was just the fire that ISU had douse urgently to salvage its image. So the increase was voted en masse. Since then, everyone repeat that argument like a mantra. I still fail to understand how the rule will protect young skaters but we will see. If those test results had been available even just two weeks before Beijing, i bet the age limit would still be 15 or increased to 16 as it was originally proposed by most parties.

There was talk back in the day for athletes like Yulia Lipnitskaya, who discussed the eating disorders she developed during training and how she was getting called fat when her weight went over about 40 kilos. It just got drowned out because the grown ups responsible for coaching girls to medals were able to drown out those kinds of voices.

The age limit for senior gymnasts in the 1980s was 15 by December 31. Not sure what 11 year olds you're talking about. There was some age falsification of 13 year olds, but definitely not 11.

The age falsification case that got North Korea banned fro artistic gymnastics for a while probably involved a girl who was about 11. Thee was talk of ‘she still has her baby teeth’ When she was competing.