2015-16 Grand Prix Final Ladies Free Skate

[Proxy]

So, the powerful federations must have also made Gracie 2 foot her 3-3 combo, pop her triple flip twice, step out of a triple lutz, and put both hands down on both her triple toe loops in the LP ?

Why are you making a straw man argument? The point is that Russian ladies have TES advantage on the field but could be vulnerable on PCS. So Russian federation with its collaborators gamed the scoring system to minimize impact of PCS and make TES the only meaningful determinant of competition results.

PCS is inflated and capped by the upper bound. That way if more mature skater skates well, their PCS advantage over young Russian girl is relatively small. But the differences in TES can be much larger. Point values have even been added to jumps to increase the disparity. This is all what I've been told by my very reliable source within ISU and something many of us already suspected.

 

[Enidan]

2008, 2010, 2014. Three times.

Really? I don't remember any commentator mention about her wining 2008 World. I'm sure I heard they said she won 2010, and 2014. Let me search for the video of 2008 World championship then. Hopefully I can see the video results. I can't trust wiki page, since you guy can alter and edit the result yourself.

 

[MiRé]

Really? I don't remember any commentator mention about her wining 2008 World. I'm sure I heard they said she won 2010, and 2014. Let me search for the video of 2008 World championship then. Hopefully I can see the video results. I can't trust wiki page, since you guy can alter and edit the result yourself.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not........................ :confused2:

 

[andromache]

Really? I don't remember any commentator mention about her wining 2008 World. I'm sure I heard they said she won 2010, and 2014. Let me search for the video of 2008 World championship then. Hopefully I can see the video results. I can't trust wiki page, since you guy can alter and edit the result yourself.

Omg this level of ridiculousness is making me

And yet I can't help myself: http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2008/CAT002RS.HTM

Is that good enough or is that some fan-edited fake result too?

 

[Mrs. P]

Really? I don't remember any commentator mention about her wining 2008 World. I'm sure I heard they said she won 2010, and 2014. Let me search for the video of 2008 World championship then. Hopefully I can see the video results. I can't trust wiki page, since you guy can alter and edit the result yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwrOxjLRGE

From CBC.

ETA: Thanks for hte flashback! Man! I wish we could go back an time and give that like a 70 TES. 60 TES seems criminal now! What an incredible performance after the big error.

 

[Kelly]

Really? I don't remember any commentator mention about her wining 2008 World. I'm sure I heard they said she won 2010, and 2014. Let me search for the video of 2008 World championship then. Hopefully I can see the video results. I can't trust wiki page, since you guy can alter and edit the result yourself.

You can not trust the commentator(s) either because they are human, they have bad memory and they make mistakes sometimes.

 

[Enidan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwrOxjLRGE

From CBC.

Thanks for the video Mrs. P. I sorry then. I didn't know that she won 3 championships. I think she skate quite good in this video, but that fall is so scary . I didn't know she can do two triple-triples combo like other top skaters today too. So, sorry again 4 everything!

 

[Mrs. P]

Thanks for the video Mrs. P. I sorry then. I didn't know that she won 3 championships. I think she skate quite good in this video, but that fall is so scary . I didn't know she can do two triple-triples combo like other top skaters today too. So, sorry again 4 everything!

Well glad you could see it!

So I have to say that after seeing those videos, I can see why people lament about the past. I just watched Yuna's FS from that competition as well, and I realize what I appreciate is that both skaters had pure skating. Neither program seems overly choreographed, but rather choreographed to make the most of each skater's strengths. But I guess that's why they only earned 59-60 in PCS back then...

I like Evgenia's programs this season, but you can't help but get the sense that the choreography is there to maximize scores rather than to really highlight Evgenia's personality as a skater, which is sort of a shame, cause she actually has a lot of personality.

 

[Ice Dance]

Well glad you could see it!
I like Evgenia's programs this season, but you can't help but get the sense that the choreography is there to maximize scores rather than to really highlight Evgenia's personality as a skater, which is sort of a shame, cause she actually has a lot of personality.

She does, but I get the feeling she has two modes. The competitive one vs. the performer. In her exhibitions, I see an entertaining, outward personality. In her competitive numbers, I just see focus. (Anna & Gracie give me this sense as well. Though they also have a more stiff, nervous mode when things are going poorly. I think Gracie has made strides in outward performance this season, but apparently not every time out).

 

[jenaj]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwrOxjLRGE

From CBC.

ETA: Thanks for hte flashback! Man! I wish we could go back an time and give that like a 70 TES. 60 TES seems criminal now! What an incredible performance after the big error.

Agree. Such a brave performance after that fall. Kostner's silver was controversial but not Mao's gold.

 

[Khoai]

Miss Asada's performance at GPF makes me feel sad. Her issue is not her body, it's her mentality. She looks so much in doubt and helplessly on ice, this reminds me of her performance at WC2011 and 2012, and even worse.

 

[largeman]

In a blog post in which she explains the jump revolutions, she uses this diagram using 3A as an example (sorry it's in Japanese): http://i0.wp.com/xn--u9j9ec8bq1cwg6...2013/12/cf8253a8eec1c8088b10000063a772801.jpg
She explains that the take-off and the landing are counted separately, each in reference to the direction of the jump. In the diagram, the arrow on the left signifies the jump direction. The circle on the bottom signifies the first revolution, which green part is the half revolution allowed for the take-off for 3A. So, for non-axel jumps, it's the opposite - the while part is the allowed half part (she notes that the take-off is not examined strictly). Then, the circle on the top shows the last (third) revolution, the deeper green part for UR zone and the yellow green part for the safe zone (regardless of axel or not).

Hi Perdita. Your description and the diagrams are all generally in line with my understanding as well regarding what's generally "allowed." There is a good thread discussing pre-rotation. I think the basic "consensus" (for lack of a better term) is that half a revolution of "pre-rotation" is allowed, i.e. the toe pick can leave the ice facing forward for non-axel jumps or facing backward for an axel.

Now, going deeper into this statement: with the Loop and Salchow and Toe loop, the above is the case for all skaters. It is just the nature of these jumps. With the Lutz and Flip, however, we see the Yunas and Carolinas doing a "power takeoff" where there is hardly any pre-rotation (and is just thrilling to watch). And you have the others doing them with more of a pre-rotation and with the toe pick leaving the ice facing forward. Lastly, the axel. I think the ideal "skid" before takeoff is 90 degrees, but as long as it's within 180 degrees it's not considered excessive. You can see that Mao has exactly a 90 degree skid with her 2A and a bigger one with her 3A.

I don't mean that this blog is the authority, but it seems quite trustworthy and according to that, Satoko's jump looks ok to me.

Coming back to Satoko, if you look at the triple flip video from Sam or this triple toe loop, you will see that the pre-rotation way exceeds that of other skaters. In her toe jumps, Her toe pick leaves the ice at the 270 degree mark in milder cases and almost 360 degree mark in the most extreme cases. Hope this helps clarify!

 

[solar]

Miss Asada's performance at GPF makes me feel sad. Her issue is not her body, it's her mentality. She looks so much in doubt and helplessly on ice, this reminds me of her performance at WC2011 and 2012, and even worse.

This probably isn't her normal mentality; she was very sick during NHK Trophy and at the GPF so luckily her performances there shouldn't be the norm for her. If you recall her JO Free skate and COC short program, that's Mao closer to her potential this season

 

[gotoschool]

This probably isn't her normal mentality; she was very sick during NHK Trophy and at the GPF so luckily her performances there shouldn't be the norm for her. If you recall her JO Free skate and COC short program, that's Mao closer to her potential this season

I think the difference in Mao's skating is obvious when you compare her short program at the GPF to her long. Mao's skating was marvelous in her SP and received big applause except for the singled lutz which is due to her trying to learn how to hold an outside edge, though I do wish she would change the triple lutz for a triple salchow in the SP or go back to her Nocturne SP to make the program less overwhelming. But, Mao's symptoms of stomach pain from the stomach flu had already set in by noon on the day of the freeskate, so obviously her composure mentally and physical ability were seriously impaired.

I think Mao's skating is incredibly beautiful even with the challenges she has faced with her jumps and I am so impressed that she had the guts to come back. Her SP at the Cup of China and LP at the Japan Open are my favorite performances this season, and her triple axel in the China Open LP and the Grand Prix Final SP are two of the most beautiful I have ever seen..

I really love all of Mao's programs but I am concerned about Mao's loose sleeves in her LP, which several posters have mentioned. I have noticed that Mao has been able to do a 3 F / 3L combo in all three of her SP performances, but that she has been unable to do it in her LP 4 times in a row. I think Mao's costume in her Madame Butterfly LP is gorgeous but I wish she would secure or tighten her sleeves because they ride up her arm and she has to shake it slightly to get it down before attempting the 3 F / 3L combo. I also think that Mao's heavy coat and pants in her exhibition, while really charming, could be causing issues with Mao's jumps because they have less height and distance in her exhibitions. As a big Mao fan, I wish she and Coach Sato would consider these wardrobe issues because I think they may be affecting the timing and consistency of her jumps, especially since she has been ill at NHK and the Grand Prix Final.

 

[nolangoh]

Wow suddenly a throwback lol never expected that. But yes, Mao's 2008 worlds lp is something not to miss, one of history's best skates, you can literally find everything in that program.

 

[Perdita]

Hi Perdita. Your description and the diagrams are all generally in line with my understanding as well regarding what's generally "allowed." There is a good thread discussing pre-rotation. I think the basic "consensus" (for lack of a better term) is that half a revolution of "pre-rotation" is allowed, i.e. the toe pick can leave the ice facing forward for non-axel jumps or facing backward for an axel.

Now, going deeper into this statement: with the Loop and Salchow and Toe loop, the above is the case for all skaters. It is just the nature of these jumps. With the Lutz and Flip, however, we see the Yunas and Carolinas doing a "power takeoff" where there is hardly any pre-rotation (and is just thrilling to watch). And you have the others doing them with more of a pre-rotation and with the toe pick leaving the ice facing forward. Lastly, the axel. I think the ideal "skid" before takeoff is 90 degrees, but as long as it's within 180 degrees it's not considered excessive. You can see that Mao has exactly a 90 degree skid with her 2A and a bigger one with her 3A.

Coming back to Satoko, if you look at the triple flip video from Sam or this triple toe loop, you will see that the pre-rotation way exceeds that of other skaters. In her toe jumps, Her toe pick leaves the ice at the 270 degree mark in milder cases and almost 360 degree mark in the most extreme cases. Hope this helps clarify!

Thanks, largeman!
That 3T from NHK does look scary to me too. But somehow, to me, the flip still looks ok and even the 3T does not seem to lack the rotation as much as you say - like 270 or 360 degrees. I'd say she pre-rotated about 200 degrees. It's probably because the direction and the angles are hard to tell in these videos that we see them differently. To be honest, in the NHK video, I'm not very sure how much she jumped toward the left.
But anyway, thank you so much! One thing I can say - ISU needs to introduce slowmo vids for pre-rotations. I don't understand why they won't do that.

While I'm tired of hearing someone bashing Satoko (I mean, I'm okay with people just expressing their opinions, like I also do, but I get tired when someone talks about it in every thread related to Satoko, speaking as if it's dumb not to realise her poor technique), I'm not saying that she has a great jumping technique. Looking at the upcoming ladies like Medvedeva and Tsurskaya, landing jumps won't be a key factor in ladies field anymore, it will be about the quality and getting the GOEs. Satoko definitely needs to improve her jumping technique and I'm saying this because I'm worried about her.

 

[David21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOwrOxjLRGE

From CBC.

ETA: Thanks for hte flashback! Man! I wish we could go back an time and give that like a 70 TES. 60 TES seems criminal now! What an incredible performance after the big error.

The lutz was flutzed, the 2nd loop was underroated, so she only had 4 clean triples. What seems "criminal" is that her PCS were the highest of anyone despite of the disrupting splat on the axel.

 

[jenaj]

The lutz was flutzed, the 2nd loop was underroated, so she only had 4 clean triples. What seems "criminal" is that her PCS were the highest of anyone despite of the disrupting splat on the axel.

Her PCS was not very high, by today's standards, at least. And the rules as written don't punish falls twice so it's not wrong to give "high" PCS despite a fall. I put high in quotes because her PCS was less than a point higher than the next highest (Yukari Nakano). She was called on the technical errors so there really isn't any reason to complain about her technical score.

 

[David21]

Her PCS was not very high, by today's standards, at least. And the rules as written don't punish falls twice so it's not wrong to give "high" PCS despite a fall. I put high in quotes because her PCS was less than a point higher than the next highest (Yukari Nakano). She was called on the technical errors so there really isn't any reason to complain about her technical score.

Like I've said, the fall was so obvious and disrupting that it should have negatively affected the PCS more. IMO.

 

[Mrs. P]

Like I've said, the fall was so obvious and disrupting that it should have negatively affected the PCS more. IMO.

It didn't really affect the program that much. It was a bit of a shock at the beginning, but by the end of the program, I think most forgot she fell, honestly.

YMMV, always.