- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
LOLOL I mead DEMENTED. Not demoted. And YES! What even IS that choreography???
2015 NHK Mens Free Skate
- Thread starter dorispulaski
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LOLOL I mead DEMENTED. Not demoted. And YES! What even IS that choreography???
It's happened more than once, that if Max makes a mistake on his second quad, he goes all to pieces and the rest of the program goes right out of his head. It's all ad libbing from that point on. Does he have some kind of attention deficit disorder? If that's the case, you have to feel for the poor guy.
Just watched Yuzuru's FS the 1?th time and my admiration for him is keep growing. His clean performance here is a most difficult technical program in his generation, and like
Kurt Browning said Yuzuru ups his ante even he is leading and a champion now. He wins and sets a new world record by both TEC and PCS!!!
Boyang is wonderful to watch too with his raw talents and fighting spirits. I don't know why people complain so much about his PCS scores when overall he's legitimately the 2nd best at NHK.
Kurt Browning said Yuzuru ups his ante even he is leading and a champion now. He wins and sets a new world record by both TEC and PCS!!!
Boyang is wonderful to watch too with his raw talents and fighting spirits. I don't know why people complain so much about his PCS scores when overall he's legitimately the 2nd best at NHK.
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- Feb 16, 2014
"Ditch" Menshov? What does that mean?
If he is willing & able to compete, which he is, he's not going anywhere. Do you think there is only room in skating for one Russian man or something? Adian's great, but he has not proven any consistency yet. Prior to CoR, his scores were essentially on par with Menshov's. So after one competition you think they should just write off everyone else...lol!
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
"Ditch" Menshov? What does that mean?
Especially because I don't think the russian fed is all about giving Menshov any favors, actually... he's the one getting the short end of the stick most of the time anyway
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
"Ditch" Menshov? What does that mean?
You have to look at potential. Is Menshov going to get any better than he is now? That's highly unlikely...really, a flat out "no". Give him a Grand Prix, some other smaller competitions, sure.
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
His personal bests all came last season, and he's shown the ability to land both types of quads this season. And I'm sure people said exactly the same thing before then.
If we wanted to talk about giving skaters with potential more opportunities than skaters who aren't going to get any better, then Kovtun or Voronov should have gone to Sochi instead of Plushenko.
Right now, I still think Menshov has a better shot to win than most of the Russian skaters. So he should be getting opportunities - if anything MORE opportunities considering how much his own federation has screwed him over in the past.
Menshov and Voronov used to have the best shot to win among all the Russian men, but they are not getting any younger (Menshov is 31 and Voronov is 28), and both are having problems landing their once-stable quads. At tne same time, neither has ever been known for strong presentation skills, so when the jumps aren't working, they slip rapidly down the standings.
Kovtun is a headcase. I found it interesting that the federation chose to not have him at CoR, and his FS performance at NHK clearly demonstrated why this was a good decision.
The upandcomers are Pitkeev, who needs to skate "bigger", and the junior skater Dmitre Aliev, who needs to avoid injury while developing better presentation skills.
Kovtun is a headcase. I found it interesting that the federation chose to not have him at CoR, and his FS performance at NHK clearly demonstrated why this was a good decision.
The upandcomers are Pitkeev, who needs to skate "bigger", and the junior skater Dmitre Aliev, who needs to avoid injury while developing better presentation skills.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Watching back the broadcast from Japan, I was surprised how warmly and whole-heartedly Boyang was cheered for before and after his performances. It wasn't Yuzu-level cheering, but they really seemed to like him. In my house, though we knew that Boyang could possibly be a threat to Yuzu, we also couldn't help but like him.
Jin has all sorts of things to work on in his skating, but there is a spark and something special there that connects with the audience. He's got a very bright future ahead of him.
Jin has all sorts of things to work on in his skating, but there is a spark and something special there that connects with the audience. He's got a very bright future ahead of him.
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Eh, I don't think Dornbush deserved to be on the podium. He did not skate well enough, as he's capable of doing. That's up to him to work out. I just wonder the effect of having to perform the quad on some of these guys. New generation of fans on here, obviously. Have a blast all you quad lovers.
As @Tavi stated, quad is just a 4 revolution jump that goes by so quickly sometimes it's not even apparent that it was 4 revolutions until identified by commentators or seen on slo-mo replay.
Clearly Jin Boyang is a good jumper, and the focus has been on him training quads over perfecting his presentation and skating skills. If he possessed both in good measure like Shoma Uno, then fine. Right now, Boyang does not. Without the quad lutz combo and other quads crammed into his programs, what is so outstanding about him? Yes, he's cute and he skated better in the sp. To me, his fp was a disaster. These comments are not hate for Boyang, just dislike for the way ISU judging and perceptions are so over-weighted toward quads. It is an imbalance that is taking the sport in God knows what direction. I'm not sure about the direction the sport is headed in, but I am fairly certain these skaters bodies are suffering the pounding impacts.
Everyone in the men's field, no matter the country are aware that quads are the going thing, and so they are training them and competing them, often without having them fully mastered. There are now a few skaters in the U.S. landing quads more consistently. They have to if they want to be competitive, so I applaud them for their efforts and hard work. But if quads are their main focus and they don't have something else to back up those quads, I would not be interested in their skating either. Max Aaron gets a bad rap. He is working hard to improve all aspects of his skating, and he is making great strides. He has been rejected plenty of times similar to Elvis Stojko because of his body shape not being considered classically suited to figure skating. Like Elvis, Max has overcome such dismissive perceptions. When/ if Jin Boyang focuses on improving and actually makes strides toward addressing the rest of his skating, then I will sit up and take more notice. Kudos for quad lutz combo, but that ain't everything skating is about IMHO.
If scored within reason, I don't object to seeing quads in programs, but I'm not all gaga about them. How many quad twists and quad somersaults are being performed in gymnastics? Not very many. But that is a different sport, very different from figure skating. Gymnasts actually have to stick their landings in order to receive a lot of credit for a difficult element. Falling can be disastrous.
An extra revolution on a basic jump is not a new kind of jump. I will be watching I suppose to see what happens going forward (but with less interest if the sport continues to head in a direction which continues to devalue the importance of artistry).
ITA with @Tavi's views on Hanyu. He was focused on skating two clean programs and he achieved it, so kudos to him. He can still improve his characterization of Seimei and his artistic focus, but that's hard to do with all the technical content he has to concentrate on. The jumps were spot-on except for the lean on one jump in the sp. But this is a great victory for Hanyu. The score is not worth even discussing. If he had the chance to achieve 6.0s across the board in both programs, now that would be something to get excited about. To me 322 is meaningless. A large unreachable number for the majority of the men's field. Carry on new generation with your over-excitement about quads. :hap85:
Will likely take a long time if ever before quads succeed in replacing triples altogether though. And quints are physically impossible, unless a new race of humans are gestated. It would behoove the sport to have skaters work more on perfecting mastery of their blades/ edges.
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Some people work their whole life, every day, and barely land quad in competition, with negative GOEs. Most will never land 4Lz, let alone in combo. If it's 'just a 4 revolution jump', then why Dornbush and company would not simply add a couple more quads in their programms? Everyone will be happy. Except 'quad haters'
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
I love to see big beautiful jumps and big beautiful skating work well together. We saw both in Yuzu's SEIMEI program.
He was living it, and everyone in the audience felt it, the judges felt it, those of us watching live felt it. It was magnificent.
Of course, one can always improve, even Mona Lisa could be improved...what happened to the ladies' eyebrows?
He was living it, and everyone in the audience felt it, the judges felt it, those of us watching live felt it. It was magnificent.
Of course, one can always improve, even Mona Lisa could be improved...what happened to the ladies' eyebrows?
So, while I know some people will continue to find the scoring meaningless and not worthy to talk about.....but this is Kurt's take on what it means in the good old 6.0 system, he seems to be pretty satisfied :agree2:
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
I'm completely puzzled by the comments that Jin delivered "nothing but quads".
I belong to the "figure skating is a sport" camp, and usually look at the feet, not so much the face, so...I'm wondering...
Are we watching the same programs? I saw a lot of footwork, musicality, good spins that are better than Javier's, speed, ice coverage, attack, intricate and difficult step sequences that are at a very high level of difficulty and execution. His technique is good, he rotated his jumps fully and keeps to the right edges for take off and landing. His jumps (and happily for me, he is good at different jumps, axels, lutz, salchows, etc.) when well-executed, had great height, distance and flow, really worth +GOEs.
Jin makes it look easy and effortless, but it is difficult to do all of that and it takes a lot of training, injury and dedication.
Where he was short is his posture, alignment, droopy arms, facial expression and most importantly, the flawed choreography, especially his FS. He has made an effort to sharpen his upper body movements in the SP, and this is visible from CoC to NHK, so he is keen to improve where he was weak.
I am going to differ from many here - I find that he is in fact too fast, too manic, I prefer that he paces himself more.
There wasn't much choreographed for the "rest" segment before the 2nd half of his FS, and he was almost coming to a standstill, though this is similar to most of the other FS, including the top skaters. Ashley made her pauses and stops on the ice look good and seamless with her dramatic facial and hand expressions, but paused she did. Jin awkwardly stood there, he is obviously not an emotionally expressive sort, and that flaw is reflected in the lowish PCS. So I guess this is what is meant by "artistry"...to me, "artistry" is the art of skating, and I prefer skaters with beautiful bladework, eg. PChan, who is also a deadpan sort but his feet and body movements expressed profoundly.
For a Senior debut and first GP appearance, I'm impressed, and I enjoyed his skating as much as say, Shoma's or Pitkeev's. They all brought different qualities to the table, all of them have their flaws, eg. Satoko still under/pre-rotates her jumps, that's a lot of points rewarded, but she received praise where she is excellent and no one is making a big deal about changing the judging system to properly penalize her. So such vitriol heaped on a young skater making a debut is troubling - I understand tastes differ, but this level of dislike I find irrational, especially for a skater who is very good, and most judges seem to agree with my evaluation.
I belong to the "figure skating is a sport" camp, and usually look at the feet, not so much the face, so...I'm wondering...
Are we watching the same programs? I saw a lot of footwork, musicality, good spins that are better than Javier's, speed, ice coverage, attack, intricate and difficult step sequences that are at a very high level of difficulty and execution. His technique is good, he rotated his jumps fully and keeps to the right edges for take off and landing. His jumps (and happily for me, he is good at different jumps, axels, lutz, salchows, etc.) when well-executed, had great height, distance and flow, really worth +GOEs.
Jin makes it look easy and effortless, but it is difficult to do all of that and it takes a lot of training, injury and dedication.
Where he was short is his posture, alignment, droopy arms, facial expression and most importantly, the flawed choreography, especially his FS. He has made an effort to sharpen his upper body movements in the SP, and this is visible from CoC to NHK, so he is keen to improve where he was weak.
I am going to differ from many here - I find that he is in fact too fast, too manic, I prefer that he paces himself more.
There wasn't much choreographed for the "rest" segment before the 2nd half of his FS, and he was almost coming to a standstill, though this is similar to most of the other FS, including the top skaters. Ashley made her pauses and stops on the ice look good and seamless with her dramatic facial and hand expressions, but paused she did. Jin awkwardly stood there, he is obviously not an emotionally expressive sort, and that flaw is reflected in the lowish PCS. So I guess this is what is meant by "artistry"...to me, "artistry" is the art of skating, and I prefer skaters with beautiful bladework, eg. PChan, who is also a deadpan sort but his feet and body movements expressed profoundly.
For a Senior debut and first GP appearance, I'm impressed, and I enjoyed his skating as much as say, Shoma's or Pitkeev's. They all brought different qualities to the table, all of them have their flaws, eg. Satoko still under/pre-rotates her jumps, that's a lot of points rewarded, but she received praise where she is excellent and no one is making a big deal about changing the judging system to properly penalize her. So such vitriol heaped on a young skater making a debut is troubling - I understand tastes differ, but this level of dislike I find irrational, especially for a skater who is very good, and most judges seem to agree with my evaluation.
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- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
One thing about Boyang that needs to be fixed ASAP (I know he's probably already working on it) is his shallow edges. The most difference between him and the other senior skaters can be seen here.
The program itself has some very blank bits and the uneven-ness of it makes for an so-so viewing experience.
These are programs that he has brought from his Junior Days, so I think, next year, he'll have the full force of his federation behind him to get good programs made. (but maybe NOT Lori...who would be a good choreographer for Boyang?) Any ideas?
The program itself has some very blank bits and the uneven-ness of it makes for an so-so viewing experience.
These are programs that he has brought from his Junior Days, so I think, next year, he'll have the full force of his federation behind him to get good programs made. (but maybe NOT Lori...who would be a good choreographer for Boyang?) Any ideas?
ITA. The edges is what stood out for me the most as an area he has to work on. I'm not asking for Patrick's edges, obviously, but if he could work on making them a little bit deeper I think it could help the overall impression of his program, during the step sequences, it gave me the impression he was struggling at times.
Mmm...idk who could it be, but knowing his fed, he's going to end up with Lori :disapp:
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I find some people too harsh and demanding on Jin, the 18 year old in his international Senior debut. Some skaters focus on developing their skating skills first and add more and more difficult jumps later, e.g. Patrick and Jason, while others get their big jumps while very young and improve their skating and performance aspects as they mature, as are many current newer Senior Men and Ladies since it's very tempting and even rewarding to do so with the scoring system. Some great skaters/performers never learn the big jumps, or at least to land them consistently, and some great jumpers never become anybody remotely associated with artistry. Others age like fine wines with their long luminous careers, albeit not without some ups and downs.
The future is ahead for Jin whose prowess has grown over the years since a very early promising age. He is not going to stop his progress abruptly and accept a final judgment as a skater now or soon. He is not a bad skater at all, especially while including those extremely difficult jumps in his programs, and this is observed and acknowledged by the judges as well as some posters here. He is deemed very unbalanced simply because of his amazing jumping ability. How many skaters can balance their PCS with TES if they are able to score TES close to or above 50 in the SP and 100 in the LP? Heck, Hanyu's scores were very unbalanced at NHK! Among skaters whose PCS are in the high 70s and low 80s, very good marks actually, if someone can begin to jump like a machine and score TES in 90s, is he suddenly a worse skater because he is now very unbalanced?
The amazing young man is barely 18 and only 5 ft 1.5 in and already he is rocking the figure skating world. Well, some negative reception is unavoidable when he is perceived as a threat, either to some current favorites or to the system. But I say bravos to Jin and will observe his growth skating wise well as physically. He may still have to adjust to a growth spurt and have a difficult season or two, but fortunately for male skaters, they get bigger and stronger rather than reshaped and heavier. I expect to continue to be awed, perhaps shocked occasionally.
The future is ahead for Jin whose prowess has grown over the years since a very early promising age. He is not going to stop his progress abruptly and accept a final judgment as a skater now or soon. He is not a bad skater at all, especially while including those extremely difficult jumps in his programs, and this is observed and acknowledged by the judges as well as some posters here. He is deemed very unbalanced simply because of his amazing jumping ability. How many skaters can balance their PCS with TES if they are able to score TES close to or above 50 in the SP and 100 in the LP? Heck, Hanyu's scores were very unbalanced at NHK! Among skaters whose PCS are in the high 70s and low 80s, very good marks actually, if someone can begin to jump like a machine and score TES in 90s, is he suddenly a worse skater because he is now very unbalanced?
The amazing young man is barely 18 and only 5 ft 1.5 in and already he is rocking the figure skating world. Well, some negative reception is unavoidable when he is perceived as a threat, either to some current favorites or to the system. But I say bravos to Jin and will observe his growth skating wise well as physically. He may still have to adjust to a growth spurt and have a difficult season or two, but fortunately for male skaters, they get bigger and stronger rather than reshaped and heavier. I expect to continue to be awed, perhaps shocked occasionally.
As I mentioned several times, what I'll be watching for with Jin, is whether he can do that high-level of technical content consistently, especially during the big championship competitions. In addition, I am curious how well his body will be able to sustain such tear-and-wear. I'm hoping his coaching team is smart with his practices and are not having him to do more quads then what is required for mastery/consistency.
I was much more impressed by his SP than his FS, but I do think that he is working on improving the non-jump elements. I do think Boyang has improved in his skating skills from his junior days, though yes further improvement is good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhjlDoYs50 <---2013 JGPF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWzu-rrTw8g <----2015 NHK Trophy
I watched both programs without the music, which was a good exercise, as it showed that he could work on interpretation music better and perhaps get some better choreography. But he seems to have transitions and his skating skills aren't bad -- it does seem he is able to get decent speed with his blade, which is a good sign of solid skating skills.
I was much more impressed by his SP than his FS, but I do think that he is working on improving the non-jump elements. I do think Boyang has improved in his skating skills from his junior days, though yes further improvement is good!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDhjlDoYs50 <---2013 JGPF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWzu-rrTw8g <----2015 NHK Trophy
I watched both programs without the music, which was a good exercise, as it showed that he could work on interpretation music better and perhaps get some better choreography. But he seems to have transitions and his skating skills aren't bad -- it does seem he is able to get decent speed with his blade, which is a good sign of solid skating skills.
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- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
The great Chinese skaters, the Pairs, have followed the path of developing technical before performing skills. Lu Chen, of course, is one of the greatest artist ever. Jin is young, and like Sui/Han, he may yet grow fast artistically.
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