2015 NHK Mens Free Skate

[qwertyskates]

One thing about Boyang that needs to be fixed ASAP (I know he's probably already working on it) is his shallow edges. The most difference between him and the other senior skaters can be seen here.
The program itself has some very blank bits and the uneven-ness of it makes for an so-so viewing experience.

These are programs that he has brought from his Junior Days, so I think, next year, he'll have the full force of his federation behind him to get good programs made. (but maybe NOT Lori...who would be a good choreographer for Boyang?) Any ideas?

My own theory about Chan vs Hanyu's footwork is that Chan's build, with a lower center of gravity, makes it easier for him to skate with greater stability, greater power and force, deep knee bends and edges, he is almost etching figures into the ice. Compared to Jin's compatriot Yan Han, the other skater from China whose skating qualities and edges are top notch, Jin's slenderness ratio really works to his disadvantage, I don't think it is easy for Jin to develop the same deep edges, musculature, etc, of Yan Han.

I hope he gets someone other than Lori Nichols. A Russian, who choreographed Plushenko's?

I reckon this is why his jumps and spins are stronger, his slender build is an advantage when jumps are performed, with good technique, he can rotate faster with time for completion and flow. He does have a lot he needs to improve on, especially his PCS, other than the 4lz, what I like most is his eagerness, sheer love for skating and abundant enthusiasm, he really attacks his jumps and step sequences, sometimes elegantly, othertimes not. I reckon it was infectious because Hanyu went out and skated lights out afterwards.

 

[Interspectator]

My own theory about Chan vs Hanyu's footwork is that Chan's build, with a lower center of gravity, makes it easier for him to skate with greater stability, greater power and force, deep knee bends and edges, he is almost etching figures into the ice. Compared to Jin's compatriot Yan Han, the other skater from China whose skating qualities and edges are top notch, Jin's slenderness ratio really works to his disadvantage, I don't think it is easy for Jin to develop the same deep edges, musculature, etc, of Yan Han.

I hope he gets someone other than Lori Nichols. A Russian, who choreographed Plushenko's?

I reckon this is why his jumps and spins are stronger, his slender build is an advantage when jumps are performed, with good technique, he can rotate faster with time for completion and flow. He does have a lot he needs to improve on, especially his PCS, other than the 4lz, what I like most is his eagerness, sheer love for skating and abundant enthusiasm, he really attacks his jumps and step sequences, sometimes elegantly, othertimes not. I reckon it was infectious because Hanyu went out and skated lights out afterwards.

I agree with you but I still think it is possible to be very thin and light still have great SS. Take a look at Sota Yamamoto, https://youtu.be/WFRCe1eVbzw he will be at the JGPF, he has a lot of work to do on his upper-body movement and musicality, but he has learned good basic skating with deep edges despite being thin. -Look at those cross-overs. -Also, Nathan Chen has got good SS as well.

 

[Interspectator]

WOW, look at this picture of 2007 NHK opening. --Who is it holding the flag?
http://prcm.jp/album/1207yuzuruh/pic/50354692

 

[qwertyskates]

I agree with you but I still think it is possible to be very thin and light still have great SS. Take a look at Sota Yamamoto, https://youtu.be/WFRCe1eVbzw he will be at the JGPF, he has a lot of work to do on his upper-body movement and musicality, but he has learned good basic skating with deep edges despite being thin. -Look at those cross-overs.

Sota is more balanced in proportion actually, Jin's legs are much longer than his upper body and his height:width proportion is more extreme. I would say of all the champion skaters, young Plushenko is similar in slenderness ratio to Jin, another debut senior of similar build would be Pitkeev. Their centre of gravity is higher, they skate with an ease and lightness, they don't have the type of edges and powerful stroking like Patrick, at times, they look like pondskaters. However, they can hold air position and rotate really quickly. In Ladies, it's like Polina, she makes mistakes in technique but her jumps are similar, lighter, higher, faster. Hanyu, of similar physique, has improved his skating skills so much under Orser, he was different before, I didn't like his pre-Orser skating, which reminds me of Jin's, very good jumps, spins, etc, but shallower edges. However, he can't do what Patrick does because his physique is not like Patrick's, and vice verse. So yes, Jin can improve, but it is easier for him to jump than to stroke deeply.

 

[Meoima]

Sota is more balanced in proportion actually, Jin's legs are much longer than his upper body and his height:width proportion is more extreme. I would say of all the champion skaters, young Plushenko is similar in slenderness ratio to Jin, another debut senior of similar build would be Pitkeev. Their centre of gravity is higher, they skate with an ease and lightness, they don't have the type of edges and powerful stroking like Patrick, at times, they look like pondskaters. However, they can hold air position and rotate really quickly. In Ladies, it's like Polina, she makes mistakes in technique but her jumps are similar, lighter, higher, faster. Hanyu, of similar physique, has improved his skating skills so much under Orser, he was different before, I didn't like his pre-Orser skating, which reminds me of Jin's, very good jumps, spins, etc, but shallower edges. However, he can't do what Patrick does because his physique is not like Patrick's, and vice verse. So yes, Jin can improve, but it is easier for him to jump than to stroke deeply.

Jeremy Abbot is TALL with super LONG limbs and his SS is great with deep edge. :roll5:

 

[Pamigena]

WOW, look at this picture of 2007 NHK opening. --Who is it holding the flag?
http://prcm.jp/album/1207yuzuruh/pic/50354692

It's either a smurf or one of the blue people in Avatar :scratch3: I'm going with smurf.

 

[shiroKJ]

Bit of fun number crunching by Neveitalia

Yuzuru VS The rest of the world's combined (previous) record

SHORT PROGRAM

TOTAL SCORE (+ 7.81)
106.33 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 98.52 - Patrick CHAN

TES (+ 2.94 )
59.44 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 56,50 - JIN Boyang

PCS ( - 0.29 )
46.89 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 47,18 - Patrick CHAN
SS 9,36 - 9,18 TR - PE 9.50 - CH 9.39 - 9.43 IN - Hanyu
SS 9.43 - TR 9,32 - 9,32 PE - CH 9.54 - 9.57 IN - CHAN

Hanyu vs Rest of the World (+ 2.65 )
106.33 (59,44 | 46,89) Yuzuru Hanyu
103,68 (56,50 | 47,18) Rest of the World (TES Jin Chan PCS)

Hanyu has touched the world record made by the TES Chinese Boyang Jin just in Nagano, but failed to overcome the best performance ever on the components of the program, established by Patrick Chan at the Olympics in 2014. The Japanese outclassed winner of Skate Canada only under "performance / execution". Moreover, in the "choreography", Hanyu had obtained a higher response in the World Team Trophy in 2015 (9.43).

Adding the technical score of Boyang Jin and the sum of the components of the program Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu would still have a lead of 2.65 points .


FREE MAP

TOTAL SCORE (+19.32)
216.07 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 196.75 - Patrick CHAN

TES ( + 18,42 )
118,87 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 100.45 - TEN Denis

PCS ( + 0.70 )
97.20 - Yuzuru Hanyu / 96,50 - Patrick CHAN
SS 9.69 - TR 9.46 - 9.75 EP - CH 9,82 - 9,89 IN - Hanyu
SS 9,57 - TR 9,39 - 9,86 PE - CH 9.64 - 9.79 IN - CHAN

Hanyu vs Rest of the World ( + 19.12 )
216.07 (118.87 | 97.20) Yuzuru Hanyu
196.95 (100.45 | 96.50) Rest of the World (TES Ten, PCS Chan)

Hanyu set a new record in terms of TES that PCS. However, contrary to what happened in the short program, remained behind Patrick Chan in the "performance / execution". In fact, at the Trophee Eric Bompard in 2013, the Canadian won 9.86 against 9.75 in Nagano reached by Olympic champion. On the technical side the edge over the competition is enormous, as Denis Ten, for now the best in the rest of the world, it stopped over eighteen lengths below.

Adding the technical score of Ten and program components of Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu would have a margin of more than 19 points.


TOTAL SCORE - TOTAL SCORE

322.40 (106.33 | 216.07) Yuzuru Hanyu
295.27 (098,52 | 196.75) Patrick CHAN
300.63 (103.68 | 196.95) rest of the world JIN + TEN + CHAN

In the total score of the competition, Hanyu has an advantage over the competition abysmal. Patrick Chan, the previous record holder, stopped at 295.27, then more than twenty-seven points below. Adding the best evidence of TES and PCS competition the situation does not change because the crabs margin student Brian Orser remains close to 22 points.

 

[Tavi...]

As @Tavi stated, quad is just a 4 revolution jump that goes by so quickly sometimes it's not even apparent that it was 4 revolutions until identified by commentators or seen on slo-mo replay.

.....

ITA with @Tavi's views on Hanyu. He was focused on skating two clean programs and he achieved it, so kudos to him. He can still improve his characterization of Seimei and his artistic focus, but that's hard to do with all the technical content he has to concentrate on. The jumps were spot-on except for the lean on one jump in the sp. But this is a great victory for Hanyu. The score is not worth even discussing. If he had the chance to achieve 6.0s across the board in both programs, now that would be something to get excited about. To me 322 is meaningless. A large unreachable number for the majority of the men's field. Carry on new generation with your over-excitement about quads. :hap85:

Just to clarify which views are Art & Sport's and which are mine this is what I actually said:

Do you think the millions in the world who tune in to watch Olympic men's figure skating would actually be able to identify a 4-rotation jump versus a triple without being told by an announcer? Because those rotations go by awfully quickly, and I find it hard to believe that most of them can tell or really care. Not to mention that in the last Olympics, what they probably ended up thinking was blimey look at all those guys splatting on their jumps, I can't believe that the guy who didn't fall wasn't the winner.

.....

For the record, I agree with you that Boyang's incredible technical difficulty fired up Hanyu, and I loved both of Hanyu's performances - they were both absolutely mesmerizing. In addition to the power of his actual skating and presentation, it was absolutely compelling to see his visible concentration and desire to win reflected in every movement, moment of stillness and expression on his face. His FS in particular was truly the performance of a life time. It wasn't the quads per se that interested me, but his determination to skate a clean program that happened to be very technically difficult, and his success in doing so.

 

[Interspectator]

Just to clarify which views are Art & Sport's and which are mine this is what I actually said:

Art&Sport's true desire was to have Yuzu RETIRE after Sochi. Thankfully, Yuzu has other plans.

 

[Tavi...]

Art&Sport's true desire was to have Yuzu RETIRE after Sochi. Thankfully, Yuzu has other plans.

I'm glad that he no longer seems ready to collapse by the end of his programs - that was really scary, and his improved stamina was very noticeable at NHK in particular.

 

[alia jackson]

Great for him, I remembered after SC FP in k&c Orser said we need to work on conditioning.

 

[Rissa]

Just to clarify which views are Art & Sport's and which are mine this is what I actually said:

The difference is pretty finny. Way to turn positive into negative, heh.

 

[Crossover]

I'm a late party to the thread, what I enjoyed the most from the men's FS is Mura's performance. He did make some mistakes, but overall his combined score was good enough to earn him a bronze medal which made me glad given his disappointing 10th place at the Skate America. Had he have a chance to compete at least one B-level competition before the Grand Prix series began, we could've had him in the GPF, so it is a pity. With Mura in a returned form, the Japanese Nationals will be fierce since the World spot is only two. He is also responsible for reducing the spot together though.

One thing to add more is that I can see how hard he's tried to deliver his own color this season that looked to me successful. Although Mura has good technical contents, skating skills and decent presentation skills, so I sincerely cheered for him to get through the deep men's field of Japan, his performances were too bland and achromatic for my taste until the last season. I don't know what made him a changed performer but I think he now has glittering "it" factors.

 

[Art&Sport]

Art&Sport's true desire was to have Yuzu RETIRE after Sochi. Thankfully, Yuzu has other plans.

Your user name should be Wannabe Mind-reader! Ha ha. Yuzu is too young to retire and I certainly did not expect him to retire after Sochi. Clearly he has a lot left that he wants to achieve, including trying to earn a second Olympic gold medal, and next time with two clean performances. And yes, his endurance has improved and the pacing of his free program is much better this season.

 

[shiroKJ]

Your user name should be Wannabe Mind-reader! Ha ha. Yuzu is too young to retire and I certainly did not expect him to retire after Sochi. Clearly he has a lot left that he wants to achieve, including trying to earn a second Olympic gold medal, and next time with two clean performances. And yes, his endurance has improved and the pacing of his free program is much better this season.

Lol. You were ranting off the walls in the SC free skate thread that he should have retired because he already "got his OGM" and he's only staying because he didn't have a good FS at the Olympics, has nothing left to offer FS, taking away from other skaters, and so forth.

But okay, you do you.

 

[Interspectator]

Your user name should be Wannabe Mind-reader! Ha ha. Yuzu is too young to retire and I certainly did not expect him to retire after Sochi. Clearly he has a lot left that he wants to achieve, including trying to earn a second Olympic gold medal, and next time with two clean performances. And yes, his endurance has improved and the pacing of his free program is much better this season.

No, I didn't read your mind...you actually posted that...

Really, I have never gotten to the point where Hanyu does anything for me. He's a great competitor with some lightning quick quads when he's on. But seriously, he's just primarily a jumper with great flow over the ice. He rarely manages to skate a clean program. I don't get all the uber love, except that he's so doll-like cute. But just too gangly and lacking in any substantive depth and artistry for my taste. He is so over-scored on PCS, it's not even funny. Stop falling and popping jumps already. His scores are always too high just because he's seen as a quad king.

I loved Dai Taka and Kozuka, and I'm entranced by young Shoma. Hanyu, I do not cheer for. You've got your Olympic gold medal. Please go away.

Look at those ridiculously over-high scores. :scowl:

To each his own...I also love Dai, Mura and Kozuka and Shoma. Japan has such a wonderful group of top-class skaters.
Go Team Japan! And Don't forget Oda and Murakami and Machida! --Gosh, what a list!

If Yuzu had 'gone away' after Sochi, we would not have seen such an amazing feat of Art and Sport as he displayed here at NHK. I think it was worth sticking around for.

 

[Art&Sport]

Some people work their whole life, every day, and barely land quad in competition, with negative GOEs. Most will never land 4Lz, let alone in combo. If it's 'just a 4 revolution jump', then why Dornbush and company would not simply add a couple more quads in their programms? Everyone will be happy. Except 'quad haters'

I don't know about who you think everyone happens to be. Yes, some jumps are a lot harder than others, just as some skaters have better mastery of the blade than others which leads to better skating skills. My point is that the quad is not a newly invented jump. It is an extra revolution added to some of the basic jumps: toe loop, salchow, lutz, flip, loop (most men are only doing the toe loop and/ or the salchow. A few men are only recently trying to train the quad lutz (the most difficult, with the axel being the next level of difficulty, since it would require rotating 4 1/2 times). I think Adam Rippon and Boyang Jin are the only men who have attempted quad lutz in competition (though others are training it), with Boyang having actually mastered the quad lutz successfully. I am not sure that there are many (if any) guys currently landing or attempting to train a quad flip or a quad loop.

Again, it's worthless and a waste of time leveling hate at something abstract! It's simply that I dislike the way the quad is over-weighted in the scoring and sooo much emphasis placed on it nearly to the exclusion of everything else it takes to be a master figure skater. Hate is not part of the equation for me. I mainly feel sadness and frustration for how the over-weighting of the quad is adversely impacting the sport on the men's side. If quad was treated more thoughtfully, responsibly and put in a proper perspective in the overall context of figure skating, I would not find it so problematic.

Mr. Dornbush has landed beautiful quads, just not with the necessary consistency. Also, he is in a competitive funk right now which means he is not consistent on some of his triples either (not because he hasn't mastered them, but because he seems to have a lot of bad luck with nagging injuries and boot problems). No need to pick on Richard Dornbush though. There are plenty of guys who would love to land quads more consistently.

The sport as a whole is quite tough, even without having to land the quad if you want to win being a factor for the men. This is NOT a sport for sissies. Unfortunately, it is a sport being run by people who have no idea in hell how to market it, how to positively promote the skaters, and how to explain it's own judging system effectively to a wider audience.

 

[Art&Sport]

Lol. You were ranting off the walls in the SC free skate thread that he should have retired because he already "got his OGM" and he's only staying because he didn't have a good FS at the Olympics, has nothing left to offer FS, taking away from other skaters, and so forth.

But okay, you do you.

That's according to your interpretation, Wannabe Mind-reader!

Indeed, smelling the is always a good thing.

 

[shiroKJ]

That's according to your interpretation, Wannabe Mind-reader!

Indeed, smelling the is always a good thing.

:giveup:

 

[Art&Sport]

Yes, in a fit of pique about the constantly over-high scoring, particularly on PCS, I said that Hanyu has his Olympic gold medal and Please go away! Yep that was a childish comment which Hanyu personally did not deserve. I am more upset by the judging and the over-weighting of quads, and the manipulation of PCS.

Still, I did not say that I expected Hanyu to retire after Sochi though, as it never entered my mind that he would. And there is certainly no indication that anyone expected it or he ever considered it. That's y'alls' interpretation of my frustration over the scoring of quads, and Hanyu's and Javi's overscores on PCS.

Mind-readers and crystal-ballers galore abound in figure skating.

Yep, and we all enjoy who we enjoy. I think Hanyu's quads are amazing when he's on, and his performances at NHK are rightly ones to celebrate, but not because he completed 3 quads in the fp, moreso because he skated two clean performances with body-bending tech content and some concerted focus on developing his artistic presentation skills. Overall, it didn't grab me in the way it has a majority of fans. But it is what it is.

IMO, Interspectator, Yuzu has the sport part pretty well in hand, the Art of Figure Skating, he still has a ways to go. I wouldn't hand him the crown of ultimate artist at the moment, no matter who cares to do so. It is a problem I understand to be able to focus fully on artistry when one has to maintain focus and energy on all the jumps and other elements, and going completely clean too. Yuzu could do a lot more with bringing the Seimei character out, but I don't think that's his priority. Still, it's early in the season. No skater wants to peak too early, so we will see what more he can bring to his characterization while trying to maintain a high level of consistency and technical excellence.

BTW, Machida has my complete respect and admiration. Dai Taka is one of the all-time greats, and he wuzrobbed of a gold medal at Worlds 2012, and he wuzrobbed of first place in the 2010 Olympics sp. Kozuka I also have enjoyed so much, and I'm sorry he has been having physical problems and difficulty remaining competitive. I have never enjoyed Mura's skating, although he did have some very good programs last season, but did not perform well throughout the season. D Murakami is looking very competitive this season and he is a fine skater. I really love Shoma Uno, and I hope he has an opportunity to grow and to continue to improve. He is a dream to watch, and his emulation of Dai is very apparent, but at the same time he is finding his own point of view as an artist and technician too.