2016 Autumn Classic Short Dance

[coldblueeyes]

Well, and they actually hit all their level 4s, so there's not any room for growth in the BV, and even not much in GOE since it was really high already. PCS is going to be another ballgame, but even then, not much higher than it is already. They are not maximized, but are close to it.

 

[Mrs. P]

I tell about it in every single short dance thread this season, but it looks like most people just ignore that fact. Not only BV has changed, but also the GOE bonus (in points) for second step sequence is higher per grade that it was for the second pattern sequence in previous seasons.
To compare the scores is simply not correct.

Edit: and that's why top Juniors scores for SD remained in mid 60s, and top Seniors went far over 70s.

Yep, that is definitely top of mind. That said, do you feel they met the requirements for all level 4s and to get that level of GOE? Because essentially, even taking into account the increased BV and scale of values, they are scoring at the level that the top teams were scoring at Worlds last season.

 

[Giselle]

Virtue & Moir's first part is amazing! That ending pose is so dramatic I love it. It kind of fizzled out in the end after the twizzles, I'm not sure that the last music cut works. Or maybe it's just early season stamania problem.

I guess I'm the only one underwhelmed by Hawayek/Baker. The mix of "Feeling good" and "How I feel" is a good concept but neither of them is credible yet during their (very) short hip hop section. Kaitlin really needs to relax her shoulders more because it makes her look tense, and her skating labored. And they could have found a different lift than the rotational one they've been doing for 3 years to suit the hip hop rythm. I'm had on them but I like them and In their 3rd season as seniors I'm expecting more of them.
I'm much more encouraged by their FD (that they debuted at Dance Chicago) than this SD.

 

[Dots]

This is not the score H/B were hoping for. They really need to turn it up a notch or two because at this time even their junior counterparts are outscoring them (I know you can't compare between competitions) however the perception is there. If they don't want to be dumped by the judges in favor of M/C and P/P, They better start scoring in the middle/higher 60's.

 

[ice coverage]

Everyone is saying the score for Tessa and Scott was really high of 77.72. I noticed that the Tech base value for all level fours has increased from 29.70 to 33.30 since last year. Won't all Short Dance scores be increased this year?

I tell about it in every single short dance thread this season, but it looks like most people just ignore that fact. Not only BV has changed, but also the GOE bonus (in points) for second step sequence is higher per grade that it was for the second pattern sequence in previous seasons.
To compare the scores is simply not correct.

Edit: and that's why top Juniors scores for SD remained in mid 60s, and top Seniors went far over 70s.

I hear you, but Tessa and Scott scored well above other SDs from this season, so that is promising, IMO.

I know that P/C, the Shibs, W/P have not competed yet, but the top SD scores from others this season:

ISU Judging System - Season Bests Short Dance Scores 2016/2017

​

1​	71.42​	Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE​	ITA​	ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2016​	22.09.2016​
2​	70.78​	Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES​	USA​	ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2016​	22.09.2016​
3​	70.32​	Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER​	CAN​	ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2016​	22.09.2016​
4​	66.76​	Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS​	USA​	ISU JGP Yokohama 2016​	10.09.2016​
5​	66.60​	Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER​	USA​	ISU JGP Czech Skate 2016​	01.09.2016​
6​	64.96​	Alla LOBODA / Pavel DROZD​	RUS​	ISU JGP Cup of Mordovia 2016​	15.09.2016​
7​	64.82​	Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE​	USA​	ISU CS US Internat. FS Classic 2016​	16.09.2016​
8​	63.10​	Christina CARREIRA / Anthony PONOMARENKO​	USA​	ISU JGP Cup of Mordovia 2016​	15.09.2016​
9​	63.06​	Elliana POGREBINSKY / Alex BENOIT​	USA​	ISU CS Nebelhorn Trophy 2016​	22.09.2016​
10​	63.04​	Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI​	ITA​	ISU CS Lombardia Trophy 2016​	10.09.2016​

http://www.isuresults.com/isujsstat/sb2016-17/sbtsdsd.htm​

Yep, that is definitely top of mind. That said, do you feel they met the requirements for all level 4s and to get that level of GOE? Because essentially, even taking into account the increased BV and scale of values, they are scoring at the level that the top teams were scoring at Worlds last season.

Thanks, Mrs. P.

2016 Worlds SD results:

1	Q	Gabriella PAPADAKIS / Guillaume CIZERON	FRA	76.29	38.46		37.83	9.43	9.32	9.57	9.50	9.46	0.00	#30
2	Q	Maia SHIBUTANI / Alex SHIBUTANI	USA	74.70	37.78		36.92	9.11	9.04	9.29	9.32	9.39	0.00	#26
3	Q	Madison CHOCK / Evan BATES	USA	72.46	35.62		36.84	9.04	9.00	9.36	9.29	9.36	0.00	#27
4	Q	Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE	CAN	71.83	34.99		36.84	9.11	9.04	9.29	9.36	9.25	0.00	#28
5	Q	Piper GILLES / Paul POIRIER	CAN	70.70	36.45		34.25	8.32	8.43	8.64	8.75	8.68	0.00	#25
6	Q	Anna CAPPELLINI / Luca LANOTTE	ITA	70.65	34.35		36.30	8.89	9.00	9.14	9.14	9.21	0.00	#29
7	Q	Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE	USA	68.44	33.58		34.86	8.61	8.54	8.89	8.68	8.86	0.00	#22
8	Q	Penny COOMES / Nicholas BUCKLAND	GBR	68.23	35.20		33.03	8.18	8.11	8.39	8.29	8.32	0.00	#21
9	Q	Victoria SINITSINA / Nikita KATSALAPOV	RUS	67.68	32.42		35.26	8.79	8.54	8.82	9.00	8.93	0.00	#9
10	Q	Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI	ITA	65.96	33.19		32.77	8.14	8.04	8.32	8.18	8.29	0.00	#24

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/SEG007.HTM

 

[Snow63]

Yep, that is definitely top of mind. That said, do you feel they met the requirements for all level 4s and to get that level of GOE? Because essentially, even taking into account the increased BV and scale of values, they are scoring at the level that the top teams were scoring at Worlds last season.

You can't compare first event of the season and the Worlds scores. And that is my point, their score is not cosmic, it's simply very good. This season WR in SD will be beaten because of increased BV, you can mark my words.

And I'm not gonna comment on the 'all level 4s' thing, the video quality is not good enough to make any conclusions. But even on this quality video during replays I can see that Scott scrapped his last 3-turn in the Not Touching Midline Step Sequence, which means that 'All steps/turns are clean' requirement was not met, so... Let's just wait for a real competition

 

[Snow63]

I hear you, but Tessa and Scott scored well above other SDs from this season, so that is promising, IMO.

It is promising, but you can't compare the scores between the events :confused2: I would be surprised if they would score that high for this execution of the SD at Nebelhorn.

 

[Mrs. P]

You can't compare first event of the season and the Worlds scores. And that is my point, their score is not cosmic, it's simply very good. This season WR in SD will be beaten because of increased BV, you can mark my words.

And I'm not gonna comment on the 'all level 4s' thing, the video quality is not good enough to make any conclusions. But even on this quality video during replays I can see that Scott scrapped his last 3-turn in the Not Touching Midline Step Sequence, which means that 'All steps/turns are clean' requirement was not met, so... Let's just wait for a real competition

Okay fair enough. I'm not bothered by the score, but yeah I'm interested to see how this scores going forward.

It's early in the season, so I know this will develop. My hope is to see a little more blues feel in the blues part.

 

[4everchan]

omy... tech panel or to put it clearly, the 2 people awarding levels are not Canadians
the competition is in Canada but it is international
i agree that scores from event to event are not 100% meaningful but still, if the ISU is ratifying some skaters' score as WORLD RECORDS and PERSONAL/SEASON BEST, then fans and followers of the sports will look and compare scores...

BTW : the fact that the BV for the Short Dance is higher than before simply means that the WORLD RECORD and everyone's PB will be beaten... however, some teams had that opportunity in the previous events and they didn't better those records..

SO : say what you want, believe what you want, Tessa and Scott's short dance is the early season stand out so far, and BY A MILE.

I personally thought that WITHOUT even seeing the protocols... the numbers just confirmed it. Yup, there are 3 more teams to look.... but at this point, why is it so difficult to agree that Tessa and Scott's SD is promising and scored the highest?

Numbers are there even if they are not 100% reliable....

I mean, is the GPF a real competition???? only the top six are competing.... should we only count ISU championships like 4CC and Euros and WORLDS for best scores?

 

[dorispulaski]

I am not expecting more blues feel. For one thing, there has been a real dearth of believable portrayal of blues, or hip hop, or swing this season. A few teams have shone, but the vast majority, not so much.

Granted, character portrayal is something that generally improves as the season progresses. But for another thing, the 'character of the dance' is a scoring feature that Montreal school has generally not emphasized all that much.

Add to that that dancers have not suffered when they are not being particularly outstanding at showing the character of a dance/rhythm over the past two seasons, I just do not expect dancers to be spending much time on something that is not easy, and which is relatively unrewarded/unpunished.

 

[dcnative]

You can't compare first event of the season and the Worlds scores. And that is my point, their score is not cosmic, it's simply very good. This season WR in SD will be beaten because of increased BV, you can mark my words.

And I'm not gonna comment on the 'all level 4s' thing, the video quality is not good enough to make any conclusions. But even on this quality video during replays I can see that Scott scrapped his last 3-turn in the Not Touching Midline Step Sequence, which means that 'All steps/turns are clean' requirement was not met, so... Let's just wait for a real competition

Yes, we need one of those. So you've explained and reminded us about base scores being higher; now I'm wondering what/who determined that they performed all those elements at the highest possible levels and how that determination is made. I feel like they were given a "fan score".

 

[Heleng]

That SD was as much fun as a free dance.

Had not watched them much before, but I was very impressed by Hawayek and Baker. Jean-Luc in particular has such beautiful skating skills and fluid, graceful movement, reminds me a little of Cizeron in that respect. I hope they have a great season!

 

[Snow63]

omy... tech panel or to put it clearly, the 2 people awarding levels are not Canadians
the competition is in Canada but it is international
i agree that scores from event to event are not 100% meaningful but still, if the ISU is ratifying some skaters' score as WORLD RECORDS and PERSONAL/SEASON BEST, then fans and followers of the sports will look and compare scores...

BTW : the fact that the BV for the Short Dance is higher than before simply means that the WORLD RECORD and everyone's PB will be beaten... however, some teams had that opportunity in the previous events and they didn't better those records..

SO : say what you want, believe what you want, Tessa and Scott's short dance is the early season stand out so far, and BY A MILE.

I personally thought that WITHOUT even seeing the protocols... the numbers just confirmed it. Yup, there are 3 more teams to look.... but at this point, why is it so difficult to agree that Tessa and Scott's SD is promising and scored the highest?

Numbers are there even if they are not 100% reliable....

Not sure if you adress me with your post, but I agreed that it is promising and it's scored highest. I like how they move on the ice and they're probably still the strongest team technically. What are you ranting about? We were having a discussion about BV because some people in this thread compared this score to their past scores and said that this score was too high, but it wasn't 'too high', it just is a new reality of ice dance and for that reality it's a very good score. :confused2:

 

[Snow63]

I mean, is the GPF a real competition???? only the top six are competing.... should we only count ISU championships like 4CC and Euros and WORLDS for best scores?

You're reaching. GP series will show who stands where, Challengers mean nothing and there's tons of examples of it.

 

[4everchan]

You're reaching. GP series will show who stands where, Challengers mean nothing and there's tons of examples of it.

i am provoking thought.... because honestly, if Challengers count for PB for reaching TES minimums it must be because ISU has decided those competitions were valid.


I was not addressing your post in particular in my previous post, simply a general sense that they got a fan score etc...

well... even if that were true, it's still a recorded score... this is not a local event, it's international.... It gets tiring reading the same thing over and over every week So i offered my humble opinion YMMV

 

[Snow63]

i am provoking thought.... because honestly, if Challengers count for PB for reaching TES minimums it must be because ISU has decided those competitions were valid.


I was not addressing your post in particular in my previous post, simply a general sense that they got a fan score etc...

well... even with that were true, it's still a recorded score... this is not a local event, it's international.... It gets tiring reading the same thing over and over every week So i offered my humble opinion YMMV

I see. Well, I remember how a lot of people screamed last season that Mordovian Ornament (Russian Challenger) should not be counted for PB and for reaching TES minimums because of 'fan scores' or 'home cooking' or whatever it was called at that time And I honestly can see why. And it happens everywhere.

Who said it was not international? It is. With international panels too.

 

[dorispulaski]

Federations have input as to which technical specialists/controllers/referees are chosen for events they sponsor.

As some officials are known to be relatively easier graders, a fed might suggest some. This results in pumping up the scores of all skaters at the event.

Mordavian Ornament was an example, but so was Golden Spin of Zagreb.

This is a feature of Senior Bs, especially.

Other feds request the harder graders to help them determine which of their skaters have the most promise and the cleanest technique. I think, long term, this is the more intelligent strategy, but YMMV.

 

[Snow63]

Federations have input as to which technical specialists/controllers/referees are chosen for events they sponsor.

As some officials are known to be relatively easier graders, a fed might suggest some. This results in pumping up the scores of all skaters at the event.

Mordavian Ornament was an example, but so was Golden Spin of Zagreb.

This is a feature of Senior Bs, especially.

Other feds request the harder graders to help them determine which of their skaters have the most promise and the cleanest technique. I think, long term, this is the more intelligent strategy, but YMMV.

I've also heard about the 'bartering' thing that's happening within the ISU, it helps the Feds to pump scores when needed or wanted too.

 

[dorispulaski]

Another reason for picking easy graders for Senior Bs is to be sure that skaters get the TES scores they need to qualify for Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CCs, and Europeans, and so that they are high on the PB list to help getting picked for GP slots.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Another reason for picking easy graders for Senior Bs is to be sure that skaters get the TES scores they need to qualify for Worlds, Jr. Worlds, 4CCs, and Europeans.

I hope no one went to Bratislava to get minimum TES.

I'm not a fan of friendly scoring and especially when the TES is involved.