2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Pantsu]

Why are we arguing whether or not Boyang Jin has a correct lutz edge? He obviously does. He's practically the textbook example of lutz. We look at the edge when the skater begins to take off, not when they are already in the air, or exactly when the toe picks. Begins to take off as in when the body begins to rotate, but both skates are still on the ice.

In the screenshot Boyang is not in the air. Both skates are still on the ice. His edge is flat. At what point the edge is not relevant anymore, can i just switch to the inside while rotating on the ice ? Since you say we should look at the begining of take-off. Trying to connect the dots

Also, i looked for the info and found this quote

"As long as tap by picking leg is done while the edge is still outside - the jump is legal. What is happening AFTER the tap - have nothing to do with determining a jump. Here is definition of a lutz from ISU affiliated source: https://www.usfsa.org/content/Identifying Jumps.pdf Excerpt: "A Lutz should have a strong backward outside edge BEFORE the skater taps into the ice. " That's it. In practice, considering that noticing exact moment before the tap is pretty hard - everyone assess the jump edge by moment of picking - which is shown in a spreadsheet there too: "Lutz - Take Off - Backward Outside with Pick".

Goncharenko had a disagreement with some Russian tech specialist on the edge call. She told him the call was made at the wrong time, when he showed the moment and explained his decision. She also thinks that Anna's Lutz edge was fine but her Flip was "!"
https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1080022717.html?from=main-news-fs
And to me, it all indicates that people are taught in a different way

Here is the official link
https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...handbook-pairs-2019-2020-final-corrected/file

Taking off from wrong edge (Flip/Lutz)
Flip take-off is from a backward inside edge, Lutz take-off is from a backward outside edge.
If the take-off edge is not clean correct, the TP indicates the error to the Judges using the
signs “e” (edge) and “!” (attention). The TP may watch the replay in slow motion. The TP
uses the sign “e” if the take-off edge is definitely wrong. The Base values of the jumps with
the sign “e” are listed in the SOV chart. The TP uses the sign “!” if the take-off edge is not
clear. In this case the Base value is not reduced. Both mistakes are reflected in the GOE of
the Judges.

It says nothing about begining or rotation

 

[PyeongChang2018]

All this Lutz talk and edges and I think that people don't know or have forgotten about what a Lutz is really about.

The idea of the Lutz is that you jump in the opposite direction from the edge that you have.

Look at this - at 0:48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoaDbxfjqas
Maria Butyrskaya from 1996 worlds. She holds her deep outside edge and as a result she is drawing a circle from the right side of the rink to the left. Then she jumps in the other direction. That's a Lutz.

Then look at this - at 0:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7dmp_GaJcw&t=195s
Maria at 1998 Olympics. She has changed her technique here and goes into the Lutz in a straight line (=flat edge) and then changes her edge to an outside edge just before takeoff. This is also a Lutz - BUT here the whole idea of the Lutz is gone. She is not jumping in the opposite direction. She just changed her edge JUST before takeoff.

This latter technique is used by EVERYONE since the late 90s. And I think it's hilarious that people use Yuna Kim as a textbook example as she always went into her Lutz in a STRAIGHT line, which means it's a flat edge, and the whole idea of the Lutz is gone.

What the ISU should do is to redefine what a Lutz really is. Is it the Lutz that Maria did in 1996?, well then everyone should get edge calls now, because no one just doesn't jump a proper Lutz like that anymore.

Sorry to come back to this but I really don't want people believing this is true. Evidence right here at the first 20 seconds of the vid that Yuna does not take a straight line into her lutz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hOp0gEBAE.

A lutz doesn't require that you're skating a curved line the whole time before initiating. The edge is what makes the curve if you're doing it right; they work in tandem.

 

[Elucidus]

I made some examples above just to prove that there are many other skaters with overlooked edge issues, or underrotations, or blade assist,...

"Blade assist" can't be overlooked since it's absent from ISU rules.

Most of the rules are already there especially in regards to edges, while as i mentioned i think there should be a new one for the full blade.

No, there shouldn't. The so called "full blade" is made up term and haters myth. All examples of "full blade" takeoffs are, in fact, toe takeoffs with blade being close to the ice. There is always air gap between blade and ice, always. If you really want to be objective and want to know the truth (and not just inventing explanations to prove your preexisting agenda) - try to compare in slo-mo takeoffs of two different jumps: "full blade" lutz and true full blade salchov. You will see striking difference - in case of salchov there will be big amount of huge snow eruptions during prerotation (which is sign of full blade contact with the ice) while lutz will have only small amount of snow crumbs during the picking moment. That's the difference. Now question is - why ISU should implement rule allowing only particular amount of range between blade and ice during toe jumps takeoff? Isn't it only absence of contact is what matters - not the distance? How you imagine this rule - should there be some kind of table lying near judges - with range of allowed distances in millimeters?

P.S.: sorry for offtopic - I am just fed up with this "full blade" narration, tbh.

 

[Orlov]

"Blade assist" can't be overlooked since it's absent from ISU rules.


No, there shouldn't. The so called "full blade" is made up term and haters myth. All examples of "full blade" takeoffs are, in fact, toe takeoffs with blade being close to the ice. There is always air gap between blade and ice, always. If you really want to be objective and want to know the truth (and not just inventing explanations to prove your preexisting agenda) - try to compare in slo-mo takeoffs of two different jumps: "full blade" lutz and true full blade salchov. You will see striking difference - in case of salchov there will be big amount of huge snow eruptions during prerotation (which is sign of full blade contact with the ice) while lutz will have only small amount of snow crumbs during the picking moment. That's the difference. Now question is - why ISU should implement rule allowing only particular amount of range between blade and ice during toe jumps takeoff? Isn't it only absence of contact is what matters - not the distance? How you imagine this rule - should there be some kind of table near judges - with range of allowed distances in millimeters?

P.S.: sorry for offtopic - I am just fed up with this "full blade" narration, tbh.

This! When I see all these twitter "experts" declare that "it's blade jump, cuz for one millisecond half-blade almost as for ice", I'm just , cuz it's obviously that main effort is made by the toe. Your argument of "snow eruptions" beautifully illustrates this.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Personally my favorite Sasha programs are Unstoppable and Big Spender (even though the lyrics to the latter are inappropriate the program itself is quite good). But I've liked all of them, despite Sasha having weaker artistry and program components. I like Big Spender because there's a lot of attention to the music, and Sasha's jumps were just flying! That cantilever into 3Lz remains my favorite 3Lz entry to this day.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

In the screenshot Boyang is not in the air. Both skates are still on the ice. His edge is flat. At what point the edge is not relevant anymore, can i just switch to the inside while rotating on the ice ? Since you say we should look at the begining of take-off.

Not beginning of takeoff, beginning of rotation. Again, I know this is off-topic, but I just want to make sure that everyone in this thread understands lutz technique before ranting about it. https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=12 this is where rotation starts for both Anya and Boyang. It's apparent in Anya's situation since you see her upper torso already turning sideways, and you can tell in Boyang's example by seeing how his arm is swinging back to prepare for rotation. Clearly Anya has a flat/perhaps inside edge, and Boyang as a deep outside edge. Also your link was to pairs skating handbook (not that the rules should be any different). Even if ISU has never provided a clear example of a lutz, the ISU video example provided should be clear enough that you measure edge when the body starts rotating. Anna doesn't have the best lutz technique, and we shouldn't hate on her for being imperfect, but let's not try to argue against facts okay?

 

[KOBOT37]

Her jumps were called ! at Cup of China and I think that‘s the way it should be - her edge isn‘t bad enough for a full e call yet. And of course, she wouldn‘t take them out even with the calls because like you said, it‘s still a whole lot of points she gets for them. But whether you get 13-15 points for a quad combo or 20 does add up and does make a difference.

Skater,according to rules may lose maximum 3 points of GOE for ! call, so sorry but she isn't going to lose 5-7 points for that. And even if she gets that ! doesn't mean she lose any more points at all, because judges can still deduct -1 GOE even for ! lutz.

 

[Happy Skates]

Personally my favorite Sasha programs are Unstoppable and Big Spender (even though the lyrics to the latter are inappropriate the program itself is quite good). But I've liked all of them, despite Sasha having weaker artistry and program components. I like Big Spender because there's a lot of attention to the music, and Sasha's jumps were just flying! That cantilever into 3Lz remains my favorite 3Lz entry to this day.

I agree! The Big Spender program was so musical imo (disregarding the lyrics), and I loved Kill Bill as well. I really hope they give her something jazzy/happy next year, or something like the Sia program, because I think she has so much potential. I'm already excited for new programs!

 

[Alex65]

Just out of curiosity, huge SAsha fan here. She was the one that got me involved in figure skating because I am mainly a gymfan. What are some of your favorite programs from SAsha? I know that her performance ability, especially in competition with the big jumps needs some work but here is a list of my favs in order:

1. Unstoppable (the presentation, the meaning, the interpretation, the elements, everything is awesome)
2. Kill Bill (I really like the music, and I actually think she has musicality. Not as much as Anna but she hits some beats)
3. Seasons (That one at jr worlds, with how the choreographed it, the quads, the history making and opening of a new era, looking back it's like a time machine! She was clearly out of energy and flailing by halfway through but everything was so bam bam bam)

I know Big Spender is a popular one among fans but I want to know what your favorites are and why

Yes, I will also name these three programs, only in the reverse order.
The seasons brought me to the FS world again , so they are the first for me.
I think that the situation with both Sasha's programs this season is about the same as with Carmen for Alina last year. This might be very good if it were not a problem with consistency. And as a result, instead of completely polishing the choreo, they have to struggle with jumping and uncertainty.

 

[McBibus]

... wrong thread... deleted
:hopelessness:

 

[Pantsu]

Not beginning of takeoff, beginning of rotation. Again, I know this is off-topic, but I just want to make sure that everyone in this thread understands lutz technique before ranting about it. https://youtu.be/VziXOiM8Jaw?t=12 this is where rotation starts for both Anya and Boyang. It's apparent in Anya's situation since you see her upper torso already turning sideways, and you can tell in Boyang's example by seeing how his arm is swinging back to prepare for rotation. Clearly Anya has a flat/perhaps inside edge, and Boyang as a deep outside edge. Also your link was to pairs skating handbook (not that the rules should be any different). Even if ISU has never provided a clear example of a lutz, the ISU video example provided should be clear enough that you measure edge when the body starts rotating. Anna doesn't have the best lutz technique, and we shouldn't hate on her for being imperfect, but let's not try to argue against facts okay?

The edge rules for Singles are the same indeed. Facts ? You provided zero. All i can see is your interpretation.
Here is the ISU video with three different take-offs (wrong, unclear, fine). It focuses on what happens before the toepick hits the ice
https://streamable.com/m332k

For the second time i see that Boyang/Anna comparision at least in this thread. So now I ask people to back up the claim made in that video.
The man in the "example Lutz" video says "as pick enters the ice the skating leg is still on the strong outside edge"
It doesn't mean the body rotation or whatever. It kinda reminds me when people bring up full blade assist.
If we take those words literally that means the exact moment when toepick hits the ice. And that is what we see in the "take-off examples video". Hence that is my understanding of how things work
So, Boyang has a deep outside edge and Anna has a flat edge

By the way, that Boyang/Anna animation video is the first one i've seen with that explanation. There are tons of others which determine the edge by the moment when the toepick hits the ice

 

[Lzbee]

The edge rules for Singles are the same indeed. Facts ? You provided zero. All i can see is your interpretation.
Here is the ISU video with three different take-offs (wrong, unclear, fine). It focuses on what happens before the toepick hits the ice
https://streamable.com/m332k

For the second time i see that Boyang/Anna comparision at least in this thread. So now I ask people to back up the claim made in that video.
The man in the "example Lutz" video says "as pick enters the ice the skating leg is still on the strong outside edge"
It doesn't mean the body rotation or whatever. It kinda reminds me when people bring up full blade assist.
If we take those words literally that means the exact moment when toepick hits the ice. And that is what we see in the "take-off examples video". Hence that is my understanding of how things work
So, Boyang has a deep outside edge and Anna has a flat edge

By the way, that Boyang/Anna animation video is the first one i've seen with that explanation. There are tons of others which determine the edge by the moment when the toepick hits the ice

Anna's Lutz looks exactly like the second example in the video you linked. The narrator states that it is "a less severe change of edge that is difficult to see in real-time". He also says that it the skater is may still be able to execute a good jump but it is considered of lesser quality.

Anna's jump is, in general, good but isu's own words would still consider it a change of edge.

 

[lpt]

1. Edge is supposed to be determined by the moment when the toepick hits the ice.
2. At that moment Anna has outside edge - https://i.imgur.com/HXUQ0Ddm.jpg
End of story.

 

[Scott512]

Why aren't the mods killing his BS discussion or having someone open a separate thread for lutz? It ain't belong in RLT.

 

[Alex65]

Why aren't the mods killing his BS discussion or having someone open a separate thread for lutz? It ain't belong in RLT.

As far as I remember, this began as a statement that Anna Lutz is not real. And people who think so continue to affirm this, bringing evidence with pictures and are angry with the judges and sometimes with Anna, and people who think that Anna is doing fine bring their evidence with pictures. A vicious circle and can go on forever, especially when there is nothing more to talk about . Nobody can convince anyone of their innocence in principle. The only real argument is the judges ’ratings in the minutes of the competition, in this case it does not work completely, since there was a Chinese precedent. This may be the eternal theme here, as Anna is apparently about to win many more trophies. Good luck to Anna!

 

[macy]

oy this is exhausting

 

[Lzbee]

As far as I remember, this began as a statement that Anna Lutz is not real. And people who think so continue to affirm this, bringing evidence with pictures and are angry with the judges and sometimes with Anna, and people who think that Anna is doing fine bring their evidence with pictures. A vicious circle and can go on forever, especially when there is nothing more to talk about . Nobody can convince anyone of their innocence in principle. The only real argument is the judges ’ratings in the minutes of the competition, in this case it does not work completely, since there was a Chinese precedent. This may be the eternal theme here, as Anna is apparently about to win many more trophies. Good luck to Anna!

From what I remember, it started when Anna fans were upset that she should have won grand Prix final so people (mostly reluctantly at that time imo) pointed out that if Alena should've been judged more strictly then Anna also should have been. Anna fans then retaliated that her edges are fine. It happened again after Euros and those that believe they are not fine have been getting more adamant about it as have those who believe they are fine. Now neither side will concede and we have this mess.

 

[Alex65]

From what I remember, it started when Anna fans were upset that she should have won grand Prix final so people (mostly reluctantly at that time imo) pointed out that if Alena should've been judged more strictly then Anna also should have been. Anna fans then retaliated that her edges are fine. It happened again after Euros and those that believe they are not fine have been getting more adamant about it as have those who believe they are fine. Now neither side will concede and we have this mess.

If so, then the best way out of this dispute is if Sasha to win the worlds, she seems to have no problems with edges. Good luck to Sasha!

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

From what I remember, it started when Anna fans were upset that she should have won grand Prix final so people (mostly reluctantly at that time imo) pointed out that if Alena should've been judged more strictly then Anna also should have been. Anna fans then retaliated that her edges are fine. It happened again after Euros and those that believe they are not fine have been getting more adamant about it as have those who believe they are fine. Now neither side will concede and we have this mess.

Exactly. One of the main reasons. I could not believe what I was reading here after Euros - that Anna should have won, that Alyona knew she did not deserve the title, almost no one was happy for Alyona. And I wondered why? She has such a better technique and skating skills and instead of the people being happy for her, they were doing this?

 

[Albus]

Exactly. One of the main reasons. I could not believe what I was reading here after Euros - that Anna should have won, that Alyona knew she did not deserve the title, almost no one was happy for Alyona. And I wondered why? She has such a better technique and skating skills and instead of the people being happy for her, they were doing this?

Everybody knows why Anna should have won, she was stronger. And she is stronger in fact.