2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[andromache]

no one belittled Alina. it's not false that Alena has outstanding skating skills, it's not false that Alina has reputation and is a veteran, nor is it false that Alina will most likely score higher PCS than Alena because of this. Heaven forbid someone use Alina's name in the same sentence with another skater

I will also add that I think Alina will earn higher PCS due to her level of performing ability, which has precisely because she is a veteran and so much experience. I did not think she was a great performer when she won her OGM (though she deserved it, ofc), and I think last year she would sometimes seem stressed out. But having seen her test skate performances, I think Alina has come an incredibly long way. She exudes maturity and confidence that really adds to her performance ability.

 

[macy]

You think that Alena is better than Alina in SS, okay. But I don’t think so at all. Do you like it if I will constantly mention in the comments that Alina is better than Alena in SS or in something else? I don’t think so.

this is difference of opinion, not belittling or being derogatory towards another skater. no, it doesn't bother me that there are thousands of members on this forum who like to express and discuss their differences of opinions that we are all entitled to

 

[zounger]

Yes, in my opinion Alina has weaker skating skills than Alena. Some skaters are better at some things than others. It is not belittling to acknowledge that.

Case study:

1. Balance(Alina), rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement (Aliona)
2. Flow and effortless glide (Aliona)
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges (Aliona), steps(Alina), turns (Alina)
4. Power/energy (Alina) and acceleration (Aliona)
5. Mastery of multi-directional skating(Alina)
6. Mastery of one-foot skating(Alina)

In this case study, I don't see the superiority of Aliona over Alina. Someone can have a different in his mind.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

I am worried about Tarusina and Kanysheva. I really hope both of them will get well soon so they can enter the Russian Cup Group stage.

My thoughts on the Russian Nationals this year:
There will be 10 ladies from GP.
Probably one from JGPF (Sinitsyna) - that's 11.
Seven spots left for the Russian Cup. Comparing with last year I would think Gubanova, Guliakova, Vasilieva, Tarakanova, Talalaikina and Nugumanova. That's 17.
One spot left for Tarusina or Kanysheva. That's 18. If both of them recover one of the above will probably not make it.

So compared to last year:
Tuktamysheva, Sakhanovich and Sinitsyna are in.
Leonova, Tsurskaya and Panenkova are out.
Questionmarks: Kanysheva and Tarusina.

But Tarusina said she has no competitions planned. How late do the cup events run? If she will be able to compete in say November then surely she would have an idea now. Or maybe she just didn’t want to say anything so no one gets their hopes up. I am crossing my fingers for her, but in my heart I fear that missing the JGP leaves her very little chance to be competitive at Nationals.

Also I’m wondering if it’s possible that Frolova’s spot in Croatia is still a placeholder for Kanysheva? Kanysheva must be almost ready to compete since she is assigned in Italy. Could they be assessing her this week and if deemed ready it will be her instead of Frolova? How late can they make this switch?

On the same note if Frolova somehow wins in Croatia then is Alena’s spot gone? Because they will want to try to get Frolova the final and it won’t matter for Kanysheva with only one spot?

 

[macy]

Case study:

1. Balance(Alina), rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement (Aliona)
2. Flow and effortless glide (Aliona)
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges (Aliona), steps(Alina), turns (Alina)
4. Power/energy (Alina) and acceleration (Aliona)
5. Mastery of multi-directional skating(Alina)
6. Mastery of one-foot skating(Alina)

In this case study, I don't see the superiority of Aliona over Alina. Someone can have a different in his mind.

i mean, this whole post is also just an opinion. i think anyone could make an argument for both skaters for almost all bullet points.

 

[zounger]

i mean, this is whole post also just an opinion. i think anyone could make an argument for both skaters for almost all bullet points.

I didn't presented it as truth, I just showed how a different view form Andromache can be.

 

[[email protected]]

Both Alina and Alena are outstanding skaters - one of the best that figure skating ever had. However, there is a big difference between them - their track record. Alina had her load of injuries and health related issues. She experienced several major falls and setback: Milano, Rusnats, the Europeans and others. However, at the key moments she stood up and shined. And this makes the difference between a good and a great athlete. Alena has to earn Alina's pcs through the body of work - we might dislike it but this is how this sport works. And this is true even when to someone's "objective" analysis Alena should beat Alina on pcs. Because there is no 100% objective analysis of artistry, intepretation, and even skating skills especially when you have to factor various bullets in one aggregate score.

I have another point to my argument. Who is the best actor/actress or singer or artist? Can it be decided by a panel of experts or you need to listen to people and see if they are willing to pay? May be, both things are necessary. Figure skating which is partially an art takes this "star" notion from the show business. When Alina enters the rink either in Russia or in Japan the cheers are not comparable with Alena's. Alina is a star. The judges know that the public wants to see her and they cannot but be influenced by that. And I don't think that it is bad: figure skating needs not just good skaters - it needs stars.

 

[andromache]

Both Alina and Alena are outstanding skaters - one of the best that figure skating ever had. However, there is a big difference between them - their track record. Alina had her load of injuries and health related issues. She experienced several major falls and setback: Milano, Rusnats, the Europeans and others. However, at the key moments she stood up and shined. And this makes the difference between a good and a great athlete. Alena has to earn Alina's pcs through the body of work - we might dislike it but this is how this sport works. And this is true even when to someone's "objective" analysis Alena should beat Alina on pcs. Because there is no 100% objective analysis of artistry, intepretation, and even skating skills especially when you have to factor various bullets in one aggregate score.

This also applies to Anna and Liza this past weekend, whether we like it or not. We don't have to like it, but it's how the sport works, and it's not a conspiracy against Anna or Eteri.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Kanysheva’s shot at senior nationals was through qualifying to the JGPF. It is like a bonus chance for the most successful non-senior eligible juniors to compete and become introduced to a larger audience since they cannot go to Europeans and Worlds. If you don’t qualify this way then you have to do Cup events and I believe you have to choose between junior and senior. Since Kanysheva is not eligible for senior she is better off doing Cup events as a junior and trying to get to Junior nationals where she has a really good shot at going to Junior Worlds if she is healthy by that time. Similarly, I believe Tarusina has a better chance at Junior Worlds than doing anything remarkable at senior nationals, but it will be more difficult for her as Kanysheva has the Eteri reputation and JGPF bronze from last year. Still, it is more of a chance at an ISU championship in the Spring than she will have in seniors.

So I wonder if both will end up doing Cup events as Juniors if it comes down to it. If Kanysheva does skate in Italy then she won’t need to do Junior Cup events because she will already be in so then she might do senior because why not. But Tarusina I think better to go as a junior than senior this year.

 

[ssffww]

Case study:

1. Balance(Alina), rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement (Aliona)
2. Flow and effortless glide (Aliona)
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges (Aliona), steps(Alina), turns (Alina)
4. Power/energy (Alina) and acceleration (Aliona)
5. Mastery of multi-directional skating(Alina)
6. Mastery of one-foot skating(Alina)

In this case study, I don't see the superiority of Aliona over Alina. Someone can have a different in his mind.

Can they? Because it seems you're poised to attack anyone who disagrees.

 

[karina17]

I think the outrage about Liza outscoring and tying Anna on PCS (as compared to what will probably happen with Alina and Alyona) is mainly because of this:

Out of the experienced seniors up against the 3A, there's no denying that Liza is the one experienced senior who is practically notorious for having empty programs, little artistry, and just poor program components in general. Few would say Evgenia or Alina have poor artistry, except for the clearly biased. On the other hand, Liza is practically known for having excellent tech but not valuing the artistic side. Come on. She blatantly admitted she audioswapped her program to completely different music. It doesn't get any more obvious than that.

If PCS was based solely on reputation, with Liza's reputation as a former world champion and one of the only ladies with a 3A, she should have had ridiculously high PCS long ago. She could have outdone Evgenia on PCS last year when Evgenia was struggling. But she didn't. Because as much as PCS is based on reputation, to an extent the judges still have to look at what is being delivered on the ice. Liza delivers excellent, textbook jumps, and she has the reputation to back herself up, but artistically she delivers very little, and the judges mark accordingly. As compared to Evgenia and Alina, no one could make an argument for Liza having brilliant artistry or mastery of any of the 5 PCS components.

Whereas Anna, out of the 3A, might not have the best skating skills but she's certainly there on performance, interpretation, and transitions. Her musicality is effortless and her programs play to her strengths. With Alina versus Alyona, as someone proved above, the artistic skill differences are debatable. If they placed Alina a bit above Alyona on PCS, that would be maybe a little unfair to some people, but still within reason. Placing Liza above Anna? Now that is on another level.

Point being: This isn't just a simple black-and-white thing of "You're a new senior so you wait your turn, that's how it's always done", because Liza's constantly low-for-her-reputation PCS proves that PCS isn't purely reputation-based. For a more extreme example (NOT Liza and Anna, this is imaginary), if a reputable senior just skated circles around the rink, demonstrating two-footed skating the entire time, had absolutely 0 transitions, and demonstrated zero performance skill the whole time, and then a new senior came on with brilliant skating skills, complex transitions, and gave an incredible performance - would the older senior outscoring the new senior not come as a shock? Because it isn't as simple as "The new one will NEVER score as much as the older one". Not if the older one is delivering much less than the new one.

The comparison of Alyona/Alina and Liza/Anna is...not really a fair comparison, imo. Alyona and Alina are on a similar artistic level (someone who posted above me showed that it could go either way). Liza and Anna...well, one connects to her music and one took her music out and changed the genre completely without editing the choreo at all. I don't want to diss Liza because she is incredible, no doubt, but to say that she's similar enough artistically to Anna to tie with her on PCS is...not entirely fair.

 

[zounger]

Can they? Because it seems you're poised to attack anyone who disagrees.

I'm poised to attack? What are you talking about? I think you are confusing me with someone else. My comment was plain and simple. Did you saw any attack on it?

For really I'm confused.

 

[Alex65]

I think for now she does alright portraying strong characters, but her main thing is... quads and cantilevers and amazing athleticism, not really some nuanced character portrayal. But she is just not elegant and at this point i cannot see her doing Cinderella or Memoirs of Geisha. It's okay she is 15, she has time to grow.

When this happens (if it happens) and people admire the beautiful Solveig for Sasha, I will miss this Mountain King.

 

[Artemisa]

Anways, the pairings of new and veteran skaters should make for an interesting comparison over the course of the GP series: http://www.isuresults.com/events/gp2019/gpsladies.htm

They seem very strategically paired at the moment, but of course subject to change and visa problems.
Shcherbakova <-> Tuktamysheva
Medvyedeva <-> Trusova
Kostornaya <-> Zagitova is perhaps the most cruel pairing, IMO both are equally qualified to make GPF

Will be interesting to see how the judging panels rank the skaters in both their stages.

I don't think is the most cruel ... I think in terms of PCS ... the jury will be more given because Alina doesn't need de PCs to win ....

 

[andromache]

Point being: This isn't just a simple black-and-white thing of "You're a new senior so you wait your turn, that's how it's always done", because Liza's constantly low-for-her-reputation PCS proves that PCS isn't purely reputation-based. For a more extreme example (NOT Liza and Anna, this is imaginary), if a reputable senior just skated circles around the rink, demonstrating two-footed skating the entire time, had absolutely 0 transitions, and demonstrated zero performance skill the whole time, and then a new senior came on with brilliant skating skills, complex transitions, and gave an incredible performance - would the older senior outscoring the new senior not come as a shock? Because it isn't as simple as "The new one will NEVER score as much as the older one". Not if the older one is delivering much less than the new one.

The comparison of Alyona/Alina and Liza/Anna is...not really a fair comparison, imo. Alyona and Alina are on a similar artistic level (someone who posted above me showed that it could go either way). Liza and Anna...well, one connects to her music and one took her music out and changed the genre completely without editing the choreo at all. I don't want to diss Liza because she is incredible, no doubt, but to say that she's similar enough artistically to Anna to tie with her on PCS is...not entirely fair.

I generally agree with you, and I think Liza was overscored and Anna was underscored. In my opinion, Anna should usually have higher PCS than Liza by about 1-2 points (I am saying this having never seen either of them live, which could have an impact.)

That said, Liza received higher PCS for her 2018 GPF SP, where she made a bigger mistake on the 3A than she did at Lombardia (FWIW, I picked GPF randomly because I couldn't remember what her other competitions were last season.) Her GPF LP also received a very similar PCS score to her Lombardia LP. Liza was scored how she is usually scored.

Anna's SP received very slightly less PCS than she received for her Junior Worlds SP. Maybe the judges don't like her new SP as much as her old one? Maybe they thought she had a bit of an off day? I don't know. She also received slightly less for her LP at Lombardia than at Junior Worlds (this is ridiculous, IMO). It's possible that when she skates after experienced seniors that her weaknesses are highlighted? I don't know.

Anna and Liza are incredibly different skaters with incredibly different strengths and weaknesses. It's kind of difficult to compare them! But at the start of a season, judges are going to favor the veterans, regardless of how bad their choreography is.

As others have pointed out, there could also be a bit of politicking at play if Mishin has close ties with Italy.

Is this any more offensive or egregious than other odd or controversial scoring that has emerged at various events? Not really. Anna was the rightful winner and she won. She and her team will continue to work on her weaknesses and maximize her strengths. She will continue to earn higher and higher PCS as long as she skates clean. Liza, OTOH, is probably pretty darn close to her PCS ceiling.

 

[zounger]

What is PCS or GOEs, the army so that the juniors wait their time to mature?

 

[Alex65]

I don't think is the most cruel ... I think in terms of PCS ... the jury will be more given because Alina doesn't need de PCs to win ....

I agree. I think it will be like: We love both of them.

 

[voolfee]

Case study:

1. Balance(Alina), rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement (Aliona)
2. Flow and effortless glide (Aliona)
3. Cleanness and sureness of deep edges (Aliona), steps(Alina), turns (Alina)
4. Power/energy (Alina) and acceleration (Aliona)
5. Mastery of multi-directional skating(Alina)
6. Mastery of one-foot skating(Alina)

In this case study, I don't see the superiority of Aliona over Alina. Someone can have a different in his mind.

Thanks for this comment, everything is very clearly and correctly written. I’ll save this comment just to insert it the next time someone writes that Alena’s SS are better than Alina’s.

 

[Scott512]

Somehow though Scott. I hope they get the love and support we are giving them on this thread. Go Gubanova:luv17: Go Nugumanova:luv17: Go Talalaikina:luv17: Go Tarusina:luv17:

I hope so too. But we need to hear or see something about them soon.

Poor Taurasina. Another injury. So unfair.

 

[Blacknight]

I'm sure Trusova is capable of it. I thought her projection in her SP last season was fantastic. In her LP it was good in parts, but not throughout. As for this season, I'm not sold yet, but we have a long way to go.

Please do not react so strongly to someone simply expressing a difference of opinion.

Actualy i was very nice and respectful in contrast
And your reaction on my opinion ridiculous at least