2022-2023 U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[TontoK]

Was there a literal lottery? I would not have sent Andrew. Not because I don’t like him (I do!) but because he has not had any international experience in several years.

Something must have been lost in translation with @snowflake post. USFSA didn't choose the world team by pulling a name out of a hat.

The more likely explanation for Andrew's selection is that he earned it by virtue of his performance at US Nationals. None of the other named contenders for that third spot had a strong argument for upending those results.

Honestly, the "next tier" batch had the opportunity to prove themselves at 4CC, and didn't exactly wow us with their output. I think Andrew did fine at World's. And if even if people think he didn't, I want to hear the reasoning as to why the others would have done better with clear evidence to the contrary.

 

[moonvine]

Something must have been lost in translation with @snowflake post. USFSA didn't choose the world team by pulling a name out of a hat.

The more likely explanation for Andrew's selection is that he earned it by virtue of his performance at US Nationals. None of the other named contenders for that third spot had a strong argument for upending those results.

Honestly, the "next tier" batch had the opportunity to prove themselves at 4CC, and didn't exactly wow us with their output. I think Andrew did fine at World's. And if even if people think he didn't, I want to hear the reasoning as to why the others would have done better with clear evidence to the contrary.

Ah @TontoK , we will never agree on this. In my opinion…the fact that Andrew was able to eke out 2 very good performances at Nationals after not having skated internationally for …3 years? (I can’t remember) doesn’t entitle him to anything except a spot in the podium.

I would have either had a skate off (like they do with Juniors every year and no one ever complains about it) or taken the person with the highest average judges scores in International comps over the season.

Worlds spots aren’t about rewarding skaters, they are about giving us the best chance to keep our 3 spots. Of course Ilia and Jason were great and so how Andrew performed wasn’t an issue. But suppose (god forbid) either had injured themselves. Andrews score didn’t come close to getting it done. Hopefully Andrew will get some international assignments next year. He’s not eligible for GPs unless they give him the SA host spot. I’d try to send him to as many senior Bs as possible and see if he can get consistent.
But I am in charge of nothing, just a person with an opinion.

 

[YuBluByMe]

In my opinion…the fact that Andrew was able to eke out 2 very good performances at Nationals after not having skated internationally for …3 years? (I can’t remember) doesn’t entitle him to anything except a spot in the podium. I would have either had a skate off (like they do with Juniors every year and no one ever complains about it) or taken the person with the highest average judges scores in International comps over the season.

Per the published selection criteria, the skater most likely to be selected for the Worlds team was Pulkinen, but the 8th place finish at Nationals ruled him out. Nationals is the skate-off. Any head-to-head afterwards is just unnecessary, especially since all the American men were equally mediocre all throughout the season. No one stood out except Ilia, so why are we doing a skate-off? It doesn’t matter if someone who scores a 221 beats another who scored a 218. Neither score will be a contribution to keeping a third spot at Worlds.

However, I’m going to say Pulkinen probably had the highest average international scores this season. It’s 227.64, which would have been 18th at Worlds. Andrew placed 21st so Pulkinen probably wouldn’t have done much better.

Andrew was chosen because Ilia and Brown is enough to keep the spots and so USFed can take a risk with the third man. And since none of the other men were bringing it internationally, it was easy to just go with someone who actually made the Nationals podium. It says a lot that USFed went with two men that didn’t compete internationally all year.

Also, I think it’s just engrained in a lot of people that losing a third spot is always a disaster. The American ladies just lost a spot and it’s really not a big deal. Currently, it won’t be for the men either.

 

[moonvine]

Per the published selection criteria, the skater most likely to be selected for the Worlds team was Pulkinen, but the 8th place finish at Nationals ruled him out. Nationals is the skate-off. Any head-to-head afterwards is just unnecessary, especially since all the American men were equally mediocre all throughout the season. No one stood out except Ilia, so why are we doing a skate-off? It doesn’t matter if someone who scores a 221 beats another who scored a 218. Neither score will be a contribution to keeping a third spot at Worlds.

However, I’m going to say Pulkinen probably had the highest average international scores this season. It’s 227.64, which would have been 18th at Worlds. Andrew placed 21st so Pulkinen probably wouldn’t have done much better.

Andrew was chosen because Ilia and Brown is enough to keep the spots and so USFed can take a risk with the third man. And since none of the other men were bringing it internationally, it was easy to just go with someone who actually made the Nationals podium. It says a lot that USFed went with two men that didn’t compete internationally all year.

Also, I think it’s just engrained in a lot of people that losing a third spot is always a disaster. The American ladies just lost a spot and it’s really not a big deal. Currently, it won’t be for the men either.

They do a skate off for the juniors. Every year. And no one thinks anything of it.

Also USFS breaks its own rules pretty frequently. See Ellie and Danny, as a brand new pair, getting 2 international assignments so they didn’t have to bother with NQS. See the one time exception to the rule that allowed the top 2 Novice pairs to skate up to juniors (which they didn’t do, but anyway).

The American ladies not having a 3rd spot may not be a big deal to you, but I’m betting it will be to the #3 American lady next year. Anyway, like I said, I’m just a person with an opinion.

 

[TontoK]

Ah @TontoK , we will never agree on this.

And you know what, dear friend? It doesn't matter that we don't agree. We're just two fans with opinions.

You know you have my respect and deep affection.

Even in cases like this, where you are clearly wrong.

 

[Jammers]

Ah @TontoK , we will never agree on this. In my opinion…the fact that Andrew was able to eke out 2 very good performances at Nationals after not having skated internationally for …3 years? (I can’t remember) doesn’t entitle him to anything except a spot in the podium.

I would have either had a skate off (like they do with Juniors every year and no one ever complains about it) or taken the person with the highest average judges scores in International comps over the season.

Worlds spots aren’t about rewarding skaters, they are about giving us the best chance to keep our 3 spots. Of course Ilia and Jason were great and so how Andrew performed wasn’t an issue. But suppose (god forbid) either had injured themselves. Andrews score didn’t come close to getting it done. Hopefully Andrew will get some international assignments next year. He’s not eligible for GPs unless they give him the SA host spot. I’d try to send him to as many senior Bs as possible and see if he can get consistent.
But I am in charge of nothing, just a person with an opinion.

All US men on the GP this season were hot messes except for Ilia so why would you want to send any of them?

 

[snowflake]

All US men on the GP this season were hot messes except for Ilia so why would you want to send any of them?

Sad but true. I get it that Andrew's national performances made hopes.

 

[moonvine]

All US men on the GP this season were hot messes except for Ilia so why would you want to send any of them?

But Andrew hadn’t been to an international competition in how many years? Talk about stress. Just throw him in the deep end.

 

[el henry]

Andrew of course faced stress. But, sorry to say, Jimmy and Camden and Liam and Maxim's track records did not show that they would handle stress any better than Andrew did.

USFS has gotten flak in the past for not sending skaters out to get experience. The international experience of the skaters who finished below Andrew at Nats did not cause USFS to believe they would do any better, so why not send Andrew?

 

[sworddance21]

Andrew of course faced stress. But, sorry to say, Jimmy and Camden and Liam and Maxim's track records did not show that they would handle stress any better than Andrew did.

USFS has gotten flak in the past for not sending skaters out to get experience. The international experience of the skaters who finished below Andrew at Nats did not cause USFS to believe they would do any better, so why not send Andrew?

Honestly, with Andrew's potential why not send him to this worlds when it really is about experience because Jason and Ilia were nearly a lock to get the 3 spots. Andrew got to experience the biggest stage under the least amount of pressure. Seems like the smart choice to me.

 

[macy]

will we ever see Vincent again?

he really hasn't given any hints either direction, but seems happy with where he's currently at. i would love to see him back someday.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

Remember at 2021 Worlds when Vincent Zhou, who had plenty of experience and multiple semi-reliable quads, got pretty much the same SP score (70.51 vs. 71.41; Andrew's score is higher) and didn't make the LP? No one said afterward, "Oh, USFS shouldn't have sent Vincent because he finished so low." So why should we say that now with Andrew, especially when USFS had Ilia and Jason to rely on for spots? At least Andrew got to skate his LP, didn't finish 24th, and got some World Standings Points from Worlds. (He was injured for so long that he didn't have any WSP at all until after Challenge Cup). Here's some fun trivia: In 2021, Nathan and Jason finished 1+7=8; in 2023, Ilia and Jason finished 3+5=8. The math for spots worked out exactly the same in both years.

I am most proud of Andrew for fighting through both programs. The best example is when he missed his 3F+3T again and, seconds later, he did a beautiful 3F+2A. I was so nervous after the Flip-Toe because I knew he had to do another Flip right away. And it was cleanly landed! And, more importantly to me as a fan, Andrew maintained his choreographic commitment and intention throughout both programs, even though he must have been so disappointed about his mistakes. So, yes, even though there were mistakes, I found a lot to savor in Andrew's Worlds programs. I am very indebted to the Japanese camera people, who captured Andrew's skating so beautifully in real time and in replays, and to the INCREDIBLE audience, who appreciated Andrew's skating qualities even with the mistakes and applauded accordingly, for greatly enhancing my enjoyment. Do I wish he had skated better and finished higher in the standings? Absolutely. (And so does Andrew). Am I upset that he didn't? No.

Now, some general comments. I thought for sure that a podium/Worlds spot was Camden's to lose, and lo and behold, he lost it. Overall I was hoping that Camden's Worlds performance last year would give him enough confidence to have a more consistent season, but sadly it didn't. How Andrew's Worlds experience might or might not help him going forward remains to be seen. Clearly more experience does not automatically lead to cleaner programs. Camden, Tomoki, and Jimmy have all been able to do more Senior international competitions than Andrew, but has it truly helped their consistency? I say no, not really. Like Andrew, they ALL have the talent to deliver on any given day.

Beyond Ilia and Jason, every single one of the US Men is a wildcard. You never know which version of any of them will show up on any given day. I see nothing wrong with having Nationals be "the day" to decide on wildcards. I certainly would not have sent Andrew over anyone else if he was 4th, but since he did finish 3rd, it was fine to send him since those who finished below him are also wildcards. For many years of being a skating fan, I assumed that sending the top 3 at Nationals was automatic unless there was an injury or illness involved. IJS threw a wrinkle into that structure (and I'm not sure if it ever was automatic in the 6.0 days or if it just seemed that way as a young viewer).

To be completely honest, I didn't even know that Andrew was competing at 2023 Nationals until I read in the GS competition thread that his SP went so well. This triggered positive memories of his 2020 Nationals SP, and eventually I hunted down his 2023 SP. I actually watched his Nationals gala first (yes, I realize that's doing it backwards ) and it really captured my attention because there was intentional choreography in every moment, with no empty places. And then when I watched his competition programs, especially his LP. that was it and I was hooked.

And if anyone is wondering, Andrew's goals for this season were to (1) get through the season injury-free, and (2) make the top 10 at Nationals. As he told Phil Hersh, "I was planning to get back to training after nationals and come back to competition with more quads next season in hopes to make the world team" so "it was surreal" for him to make the Nationals podium and World team this year. Andrew and Raf were as surprised about how everything unfolded as any of us. According to @el henry, the ultimate Andrew fan on GS, Andrew really struggled at the NQS and Sectionals, so the fact that he even made it to Worlds is miraculous.

Another factor to keep in mind is Andrew's long history of injuries, which I will elaborate on in my next post.

 

[skatingfan4ever]

The summer after Andrew won Juniors in 2015, he broke his ankle training a 4T, which required surgery to stabilize the tibia with three screws that were removed six months later. He missed the entire 2015/2016 season. In hindsight, he says, "My mentality always was to just grind as much as I could until I realized that if you grind something too much, it turns into dust."

He qualified for the 2018 JGPF by placing 1st and 4th at his JGPs, but he withdrew before the competition due to an injury. He finished 5th at 2020 Senior Nationals (he was in 3rd with a 97.87 after a clean SP) but finished 8th at Junior Worlds. In October 2020, he moved to California to train with Raf. But here's what happened next (from the Phil Hersh article):

For the next two seasons, a hard-to-diagnose right foot injury forced Torgashev to learn Arutunian’s methods while observing from the stands. He was unable to compete in both the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons, and his aerobic activity was limited to low resistance pedaling of an exercise bike. Stymied, he wondered at times if he should say, “Enough.”

“I truly almost did,” he said. “I had moved out to California and was living on my own for the first time, and it was just a tough situation to be in, and I was wondering what else life held for me outside of skating.

“But then I quickly came to the realization that I just wasn’t ready to let this go yet. I still have love for the sport, and I felt like I hadn’t maxed out my potential. For all the people that helped me along the way, especially my parents, I couldn’t just let it go without giving it my best shot.”

That became possible last summer, after the Florida doctor who had done the ankle surgery diagnosed the foot injury as a dislocated metatarsal and offered him the choice of another surgery or a rehab program to strengthen the foot and keep the bone in place. He chose rehab. So far, so good.

Before this season, [italics added by me] Torgashev was finally able to really work with Arutunian.

I wonder what a second good off-season with Raf might do for Andrew's skating. May he stay healthy in the process. No one has a crystal ball, and the US Men other than Nathan/Ilia/Jason have always been unpredictable.

The wild ride of US Men's skating continues! Can you imagine how much fun it would be if they all skated well at the same competition? They each bring something different to the ice!

 

[moonvine]

will we ever see Vincent again?

he really hasn't given any hints either direction, but seems happy with where he's currently at. i would love to see him back someday.

He retired. I guess he could unretire.

 

[moonvine]

Remember at 2021 Worlds when Vincent Zhou, who had plenty of experience and multiple semi-reliable quads, got pretty much the same SP score (70.51 vs. 71.41; Andrew's score is higher) and didn't make the LP? No one said afterward, "Oh, USFS shouldn't have sent Vincent because he finished so low." So why should we say that now with Andrew, especially when USFS had Ilia and Jason to rely on for spots? At least Andrew got to skate his LP, didn't finish 24th, and got some World Standings Points from Worlds. (He was injured for so long that he didn't have any WSP at all until after Challenge Cup). Here's some fun trivia: In 2021, Nathan and Jason finished 1+7=8; in 2023, Ilia and Jason finished 3+5=8. The math for spots worked out exactly the same in both years.

I am most proud of Andrew for fighting through both programs. The best example is when he missed his 3F+3T again and, seconds later, he did a beautiful 3F+2A. I was so nervous after the Flip-Toe because I knew he had to do another Flip right away. And it was cleanly landed! And, more importantly to me as a fan, Andrew maintained his choreographic commitment and intention throughout both programs, even though he must have been so disappointed about his mistakes. So, yes, even though there were mistakes, I found a lot to savor in Andrew's Worlds programs. I am very indebted to the Japanese camera people, who captured Andrew's skating so beautifully in real time and in replays, and to the INCREDIBLE audience, who appreciated Andrew's skating qualities even with the mistakes and applauded accordingly, for greatly enhancing my enjoyment. Do I wish he had skated better and finished higher in the standings? Absolutely. (And so does Andrew). Am I upset that he didn't? No.

Now, some general comments. I thought for sure that a podium/Worlds spot was Camden's to lose, and lo and behold, he lost it. Overall I was hoping that Camden's Worlds performance last year would give him enough confidence to have a more consistent season, but sadly it didn't. How Andrew's Worlds experience might or might not help him going forward remains to be seen. Clearly more experience does not automatically lead to cleaner programs. Camden, Tomoki, and Jimmy have all been able to do more Senior international competitions than Andrew, but has it truly helped their consistency? I say no, not really. Like Andrew, they ALL have the talent to deliver on any given day.

Beyond Ilia and Jason, every single one of the US Men is a wildcard. You never know which version of any of them will show up on any given day. I see nothing wrong with having Nationals be "the day" to decide on wildcards. I certainly would not have sent Andrew over anyone else if he was 4th, but since he did finish 3rd, it was fine to send him since those who finished below him are also wildcards. For many years of being a skating fan, I assumed that sending the top 3 at Nationals was automatic unless there was an injury or illness involved. IJS threw a wrinkle into that structure (and I'm not sure if it ever was automatic in the 6.0 days or if it just seemed that way as a young viewer).

To be completely honest, I didn't even know that Andrew was competing at 2023 Nationals until I read in the GS competition thread that his SP went so well. This triggered positive memories of his 2020 Nationals SP, and eventually I hunted down his 2023 SP. I actually watched his Nationals gala first (yes, I realize that's doing it backwards ) and it really captured my attention because there was intentional choreography in every moment, with no empty places. And then when I watched his competition programs, especially his LP. that was it and I was hooked.

And if anyone is wondering, Andrew's goals for this season were to (1) get through the season injury-free, and (2) make the top 10 at Nationals. As he told Phil Hersh, "I was planning to get back to training after nationals and come back to competition with more quads next season in hopes to make the world team" so "it was surreal" for him to make the Nationals podium and World team this year. Andrew and Raf were as surprised about how everything unfolded as any of us. According to @el henry, the ultimate Andrew fan on GS, Andrew really struggled at the NQS and Sectionals, so the fact that he even made it to Worlds is miraculous.

Another factor to keep in mind is Andrew's long history of injuries, which I will elaborate on in my next post.

Jimmy needs to string 2 good programs together. The cost of Diet Coke has doubled and someone has to support us.

 

[macy]

He retired. I guess he could unretire.

i don't think he ever officially announced his retirement, unless i'm missing something?

 

[el henry]

Neither Vincent nor Nathan have officially announced their retirements, AFAIK. I believe they have both talked about keeping their options open.

That said, strictly as an outsider who does not follow every move of either, I would be surprised if they returned. Yale and Brown are schools that require most of your attention, most of the time (Nathan said his studies suffered the year he did both, although I remain in awe that he did both). Presumably Nathan and Vincent are attending these schools because they understand there is life outside skating and that is the life they are preparing for.

I understand that may be sad for their fans And I could be completely wrong

 

[moonvine]

Neither Vincent nor Nathan have officially announced their retirements, AFAIK. I believe they have both talked about keeping their options open.

That said, strictly as an outsider who does not follow every move of either, I would be surprised if they returned. Yale and Brown are schools that require most of your attention, most of the time (Nathan said his studies suffered the year he did both, although I remain in awe that he did both). Presumably Nathan and Vincent are attending these schools because they understand there is life outside skating and that is the life they are preparing for.

I understand that may be sad for their fans And I could be completely wrong

I would have sworn up and down he retired. I guess I was wrong. Nothing “official.”

 

[el henry]

I would have sworn up and down he retired. I guess I was wrong. Nothing “official.”

They are playing their cards close to the vest. If I were a betting woman, I would not bet on their return to competitive ice. But I don't bet.

 

[skatedreamer]

They are playing their cards close to the vest. If I were a betting woman, I would not bet on their return to competitive ice. But I don't bet.

Same here; for the record, I'm not a betting woman either. I'll miss both Nathan and Vincent, but they've given us so much. It's time for them to live their own lives. Wishing them the best in whatever paths they follow!