4 "Unexpected"/"Atypical" World Champions

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't think anyone is defending Chan, Trankov, Kovtun, Plushenko, Joubert, etc. for their asinine remarks. Criticism is one thing... but there's a line.

I think Meagan took offense to him saying they didn't deserve the components scores they earned. I mean, Meagan could have easily retorted that V/T received excessively high PCS scores for programs that had multiple errors, including falls (like the 2014 GPF FS or the 2012 Worlds SP). I'm glad she was classy enough to maintain respect, even if he wasn't.

There's also something weird about a fellow skater critiquing your scores when they're still potentially your competitor. If V/T had announced their retirement, and Trankov was legitimately retired then his comments would seem less like trying to slam a fellow competitor and more like actual critical commentating. Like, it'd be awkward if CBC had invited Chan to commentate on the men's event, right?

 

[Skater Boy]

People might not have predicted them back before the season started, but to be really surprising/unexpected, they'd have to be so at the end of the season. Only Papadakis/Cizeron, I think, came across so, because despite good season other pairs had better odds in most people's heads.

Better question would be, who had unexpectedly good season. Tuk and Paoadakis/Cizeron certainly.

Sorry for me I always knew P and C would be world champions and I thought this year it might happen and it did. Not say I agree necessarily but it is a weak year in dance.

 

[Skater Boy]

I don't know... D&R are like a team from the futuristic dystopia and cloned humans. Just physically, they aren't your typical pair. Meghan's very pronounced musculature differentiates her from the typical pairs female skater. Trankov makes valid points. He's not criticizing them as individuals. He is expressing his opinion about their "style" of skating and emphasis on upping the technical ante. Obviously, Meghan is taking it personally. As for not having bad things to say about V&T's skating, their skating quality/ability is nearly flawless, so there's not much to criticize. D&R do things to win.... but that's it. They're not artists. They're not interested in creating something of beauty and emotion.

I disagree. Eric writes music and even wrote their short for the Olympics. They are artists just different kinds. Some like flowers others like humans. Some do desserts and some are pasta chefs.

 

[Skater Boy]

D/R at the moment reminds me of how Simone Biles is in gymnastics. Maybe you don't like their skating or whatever, but they're pushing forward the sport without losing who they are, just like Simone with WAG.

Although I am more impressed by Simone b/c she still hasn't reached her potential

I am wondering if Duhamel and Radford chose Firebird, the warhorse if they could use their strength and speed to create something more emotional, Vivaldi Four Season, Something fun maybe like cuts from the Wizard of Oz, or a comical perhaps tango?

 

[BlackPack]

Well, I usually choose not to watch videos with Russian commentators if I have other options. The loquacity of Russian commentators is grating. I can't hear the music and experience the program, which I mentioned on another thread. They do have a tendency to make incendiary remarks which end up on forums like GS and the threads just explode. Trankov is not new to making incendiary remarks. As for being pro-Russian, we all saw how non-Russian skaters were treated in Sochi during competitions, so it isn't surprising when the commentary is also partisan. They have a lot to learn from the Japanese and even North American audiences who support skaters regardless of their nationalities. On the other hand, remember how Sandra Bezic and Scott Hamilton acted during the 2002 Olympics? How Kurt Browning made fun of Urmanov in 1994 Worlds?

Some people have said that Trankov and his supporters are criticizing D&R out of envy and fear that they or their favorites won't win anymore. I'm sure there's truth to that.

Radford being a composer of sorts doesn't automatically translate to being a great artist.

I really think Duhamel would be happier if she would stop expecting universal acceptance from others. It is deeply hurtful to read that people don't want you to be World Champion but there are reasons. Can she live with the reasons that some fans want World Champions who are more artistically and technically balanced? No one can please every single person.

 

[4everchan]

Some people have said that Trankov and his supporters are criticizing D&R out of envy and fear that they or their favorites won't win anymore. I'm sure there's truth to that.

Radford being a composer of sorts doesn't automatically translate to being a great artist.

I really think Duhamel would be happier if she would stop expecting universal acceptance from others. It is deeply hurtful to read that people don't want you to be World Champion but there are reasons. Can she live with the reasons that some fans want World Champions who are more artistically and technically balanced? No one can please every single person.

just thought to address some of your points...

1)agreed

2)agreed but that's not for figure skating fans to judge... whether or not he is a great composer will be decided by music history... I personally agree that his music may not be my cup of tea, but saying he is not artistic because i don't like his music is unfair.... I don't like lady gaga for instance, does that mean she isn't an artist? not our call to judge this... "artistry in sport" is not the same as artistry in the arts world... figure skating is a sport with artistic components... not an art form.

3) i don't think she expects universal acceptance...she just mentioned hoping for decency and respect.

 

[kinoriH]

To me, D/R's 4STh or SBS 3Z is a lot harder to master than V/T's artistry, because they will always be high-risk and you can make a mistake on it (while I acknowledge superior artistry takes mastery to develop, you can't really "err" on emotional connection/improved artistry).

I must say I completley disagree. For any team in V/T level , it's pretty possible to learn a SBS 3Z or a quad throw.
What you cannot teach is the basic connection of a pair and overall artistry you are born with. So saying that technical difficulty is much harder to master is just untrue.
If I wanted to see a circus act I would go see gymnastics or acrobatics. Call me old fashioned, but this is figure skating. there's a reason why all the top pairs had something to do with expressing emotion or at least acknowledging each other- something D/R just fail to do.

 

[4everchan]

i disagree with born with... art is 5% talent and 95% work... the born with factor can be an advantage but without the proper efforts it is nothing.... look at all the kids who show bright promise with piano lessons as kids... who ends up making it a career? very few... not necessarily the most talented but the ones who worked hard... and were coached well... a good coach can make someone who looks average or sound average in the case of music, be perceived as "artistic"

I must say I completley disagree. For any team in V/T level , it's pretty possible to learn a SBS 3Z or a quad throw.
What you cannot teach is the basic connection of a pair and overall artistry you are born with. So saying that technical difficulty is much easier to master is just untrue.
If I wanted to see a circus act I would go see gymnastics or acrobatics. Call me old fashioned, but this is figure skating. there's a reason why all the top pairs had something to do with expressing emotion or at least acknowledging each other- something D/R just fail to do.

 

[BlackPack]

just thought to address some of your points...

1)agreed

2)agreed but that's not for figure skating fans to judge... whether or not he is a great composer will be decided by music history... I personally agree that his music may not be my cup of tea, but saying he is not artistic because i don't like his music is unfair.... I don't like lady gaga for instance, does that mean she isn't an artist? not our call to judge this... "artistry in sport" is not the same as artistry in the arts world... figure skating is a sport with artistic components... not an art form.

3) i don't think she expects universal acceptance...she just mentioned hoping for decency and respect.

At this point I may just be splitting hairs.

I was commenting on Radford being an artist on the ice. I'm not in the position to comment on musical taste. He could be a Vincent van Gogh or a Beethoven off the ice and still not be the greatest artist on the ice. People were quick to say he's artistic because he composes music. Occasionally, there will be threads on who the greatest "artists on the ice" are - and many names will show up consistently. Will D&R show up? I don't think so. Yet, the most beloved skaters have almost always shown some level of artistic mastery, so while FS isn't pure art, it's a supremely important aspect, the same aspect that inspires "FS should not be a sport" cries because it can't be objectively measured.

Whether it's respect or decency or acceptance that Duhamel is seeking, I don't know - she is World Champion... why not enjoy it despite the criticisms? I have yet to see a single World Champion who wasn't criticized. Maybe she's not used to being in the limelight, and being the center of attention is new to her.

 

[4everchan]

just for fun…. another team that wasn't "artistic" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-e86IUPEeQ

in their win at the WC… 22 years ago the sport has changed so much…. two twists, two spirals.. so more pair moves if anything, it's the ISU who is encouraging better single skating but my point… is that I loved this performance… and it was also very nice to see the Americans who had way better chemistry on ice and in life, cheering for them !

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I must say I completley disagree. For any team in V/T level , it's pretty possible to learn a SBS 3Z or a quad throw.
What you cannot teach is the basic connection of a pair and overall artistry you are born with. So saying that technical difficulty is much harder to master is just untrue.
If I wanted to see a circus act I would go see gymnastics or acrobatics. Call me old fashioned, but this is figure skating. there's a reason why all the top pairs had something to do with expressing emotion or at least acknowledging each other- something D/R just fail to do.

If it's pretty possible to learn a SBS 3Z or quad throw, then how come V/T never did that? Why did they not push themselves by trying harder SBS elements and at least harder throws if "it's pretty possible". How come D/R are the only pairs skaters (until M/H at Euros) to execute SBS triple lutzes if it's possible for others to do them too? I guess you could say that V/T can get away with not upping their difficulty, but that's not the way to challenge yourself and certainly not your sport.

It's hugely inaccurate to say D/R aren't expressing emotion or at least acknowledging each other. I think their freeskate is a gauntlet of difficult elements, so as such they have to sacrifice connection to focus on executing harder stuff... but they still have transitions into their elements except for the 4S.

No matter how unartistic D/R are to some people, there's no denying that they're innovators who have taken pairs elements to a whole new level, and there are not too many World Champion pairs teams who can actually say that.

 

[gkelly]

And another team that won multiple titles largely on speed and strength

 

[BlackPack]

Pairs was stagnating technically for a long time. The technical difficulty of 2 SBS triples/2axels, pretzel lifts, 2 throws, etc. have been more or less the same with some COP variations. A pair with similar content in 1994 can win some of the competitions in recent years.

Finally, quads are a requirement to win, as shown by Stolbova and Klimov's desire to skip Worlds and train for one.

V&T didn't need to take the risk. That's why they didn't do it.

Shen and Zhao knew they needed quads to win, but they didn't succeed. After a while, the judges' perception of them changed from inherently athletic skaters to artistic skaters with excellent technique. So the quad thing was left off the table for a while.

Other pairs like S&S attempted quads but also failed.

So there was no incentive for V&T or anyone else to really do quads unless their closest rivals were landing them successfully and consistently. If S&S succeeded in landing quads consistently, you bet V&T would also attempt at landing them too or come up with the equivalent.

It's a matter of strategy. Stolbova and Klimov know the winds are blowing a different direction and allegedly ended the season early to train for something that can challenge D&R.

 

[Miss Ice]

Here is what I think is cool. Four years ago Adelina Sotnikova and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva burst onto the scene as the new Russian wunderkinder who would dominate everything for four years and win the Olympics. By the next year they were both written off as dreadful and here came the even younger crop, led by Julia Lipnitshia, who were going to dominate for three years and win everything. But three years later, -- boom -- our first guess was right after all. Sotnikova won a nail-biter at the Olympics and Tuktamysheva swept all before her at the subsequent worlds.

That's why Lipnitskia is going to regroup and win the next Olympics.

Liza I can understand, she does fall into the category you describe. But by citing a clear political statement (i.e. the Sochi gold medal) as an achievement of the skater herself, you are doing the skater a disservice. In no real competition would Sotnikova get Gold in that event, and it's pointless to try to convince me or thousands of other people who share my view, otherwise.

I also don't understand why you are bringing Lip into this. She has the worst sportsmanship and the worst personality out of the lot, I don't understand why those have become such attractive qualities since the 2014 champion. :sarcasm:

 

[MaxSwagg]

D/R are great technically...and that's it. V/T are not B/S, G/G, or even S/S level, but in the grand scheme of things they have that intangible quality that so many of the great teams have had and D/R simply don't. They're really very ordinary, even with the Lutzes and quad...

 

[Sandpiper]

I also don't understand why you are bringing Lip into this. She has the worst sportsmanship and the worst personality out of the lot, I don't understand why those have become such attractive qualities since the 2014 champion. :sarcasm:

Do you know Yulia personally?

And even if you're right... So what? Are we handing out medals for personality now? As long as she's not taking drugs or whacking her opponents, her off-ice personality is irrelevant.

 

[kinoriH]

If it's pretty possible to learn a SBS 3Z or quad throw, then how come V/T never did that? Why did they not push themselves by trying harder SBS elements and at least harder throws if "it's pretty possible". How come D/R are the only pairs skaters (until M/H at Euros) to execute SBS triple lutzes if it's possible for others to do them too? I guess you could say that V/T can get away with not upping their difficulty, but that's not the way to challenge yourself and certainly not your sport.

I said it's possible, not likely to happen though- mainly because of the fact that V/T technique in their throws makes it too dangerous for a quad. Tanya goes so high and covers too much ice so the risk for injury is doubled. and let's be honest, in this WC Tarasova/Morozov's triple throws were much more grand than D/R quad.

IMO, and you may disagree, most couples who attempt high risk elements do it for one main reason - they have nothing else to offer as a pair. they're just the "lutz pair", the "4THs pair" and later they're forgotten cause basically it's thrilling to see at that moment but the enthusiasm about those elements doesn't last long.

 

[4everchan]

I said it's possible, not likely to happen though- mainly because of the fact that V/T technique in their throws makes it too dangerous for a quad. Tanya goes so high and covers too much ice so the risk for injury is doubled. and let's be honest, in this WC Tarasova/Morozov's triple throws were much more grand than D/R quad.

IMO, and you may disagree, most couples who attempt high risk elements do it for one main reason - they have nothing else to offer as a pair. they're just the "lutz pair", the "4THs pair" and later they're forgotten cause basically it's thrilling to see at that moment but the enthusiasm about those elements doesn't last long.

Totally disagree... Your comment is very disrespectful. Also, if the enthusiasm about the elements doesn't last long as you put it in your comment, the elements do last... already other teams are pushing with the technical content (the Italians for instance) and we will see more and more and more of that in the next ten years... In the end, Duhamel and Radford will ALWAYS be remembered in the history of figure skating as the first to do SBS 3LZ ... like Liza will always be remembered as the first woman with a short program with 4 triple jumps... Why are people so happy for Liza and so unhappy for D/R? Double standard. Bigoted bias.

 

[Flaya]

Liza - I absolutely adore her. I think she is in for a longtime, but obviously anything can happen. She can even not make the team and get discouraged, I hope to see her in PyongChang and beyond! My only suggestion, get rid of overused stuff like Bolero and don't go for anything similar.

Duhamel / Ratford - Methinks that they are at the end of their career. They will likely get passed by Cui/Hui, I think they consciously or unconsciously know that they are unlikely to dominate in the future, plus there is this Junior World Chinese pair. Having said that, I like them!

Javier - Did you guys know that Spain has only two medals in all of the history of Winter Olympics? For this reason alone, I cannot see Javier retiring anytime soon. A showdown in PyongChang between Javier, Denis and Yururu will be epic! Denis is ethnically Korean, which could be an advantage. A bit more attention to details would not hurt Javier.

Papadakis / Cizeron - This can easily be the best ever pair in the strong tradition of French ice dance pairs. And they are so young 19/20! I could see them in long haul, including in Almaty/Beijing in 2022. Wouldn't it be fabulous?

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Totally disagree... Your comment is very disrespectful. Also, if the enthusiasm about the elements doesn't last long as you put it in your comment, the elements do last... already other teams are pushing with the technical content (the Italians for instance) and we will see more and more and more of that in the next ten years... In the end, Duhamel and Radford will ALWAYS be remembered in the history of figure skating as the first to do SBS 3LZ ... like Liza will always be remembered as the first woman with a short program with 4 triple jumps... Why are people so happy for Liza and so unhappy for D/R? Double standard. Bigoted bias.

Exactly. Liza's programs are quite ordinary, as is her presentation (D/R are indeed "ordinary" in the artistry department but their programs are at least intricate with innovative moves, like the entry into their 3ZTh in the SP).

Also, Duhamel and Arnold landed the first SBS at the Canadians, but were D/H the first to land them in international competition?

Certainly they're the Mao Asada of their sport, in terms of technical ability and pushing the boundaries of difficulty. Like, they have already had arguably the most consistent quad throw (after just one season of doing it in competition), and they've landed several SBS 3Z and SBS 3F jumps in competition, with nobody even attempting them other than Marchei/Hotarek this year.

It's really insulting to technically brilliant skaters to diminish their athletic feats by dismissing them as "unartistic". I'm sure many people think Reynolds' SP or Goebel's 2002 LP or Brandon Mroz's 4Z SP aren't particularly great artistic programs in the grand scheme of things, but there's no denying they made history and will be remembered for that.

I'm not quite sure what V/T will be remembered for in terms of pushing the technical boundaries of their sport... especially given they only had 4 seasons together... they have the records, which will stand for a long time (especially with no second half bonus and an SP lift having to be a group 3). But to me, they're kinda like a Navka/Kostamarov in that sense. I'll remember them for having an amazing twist, and a strong connection, but there's nothing they've done to really change the sport-- even S/S pushed themselves by attempting throw 3F before a lot of pairs, and of course, incorporating the throw 3A, too.