4 "Unexpected"/"Atypical" World Champions

[Jaana]

Javier Fernandez was not unexpected/atypical World champion, neither Tuktamysheva. Pairs and ice dance were rather unexpected to me.

 

[LRK]

Hmm... if Trankov really did make those comments, it really goes beyond disrespect and poor sportsmanship. It doesn't matter what he thinks constitutes artistry, it only matter what the judges think. But his comments can potentially be manipulative, and if it was his intention to manipulate what the judges think, it would be a very nasty low-handed tactic.

BTW, I brought this up in the V/T thread.

Well, since I don't follow V/T, I haven't seen the tons of interviews in which he is criticising D/R.

"publicly in interviews has done nothing but criticize Eric and I"

I heard he said something while commentating on GPF - I've forgotten what - but this seems to suggest there are lots & lots of interviews with him. I think that if we are going to discuss whehter he was right or wrong to say something - we should also be shown what/where/when it is he said exactly? Not just essentially "he's been saying lots of mean & nasty things". That doesn't really give a basis for contstructive discussion.

 

[4everchan]

I don't think Duhamel would say this if Trankov didn't say it… and it doesn't mean to be said "in tons of interviews" Once if enough to be disrespectful. I heard as well about the GPF and like you, didn't hear exactly what but heard it was negative… if anyone has that quote, fine but I would give the benefit of the doubt to Duhamel here, simply because it wouldn't make any sense to invent such a story.

Well, since I don't follow V/T, I haven't seen the tons of interviews in which he is criticising D/R.

"publicly in interviews has done nothing but criticize Eric and I"

I heard he said something while commentating on GPF - I've forgotten what - but this seems to suggest there are lots & lots of interviews with him. I think that if we are going to discuss whehter he was right or wrong to say something - we should also be shown what/where/when it is he said exactly? Not just essentially "he's been saying lots of mean & nasty things". That doesn't really give a basis for contstructive discussion.

 

[wallylutz]

Hmm... if Trankov really did make those comments, it really goes beyond disrespect and poor sportsmanship. It doesn't matter what he thinks constitutes artistry, it only matter what the judges think. But his comments can potentially be manipulative, and if it was his intention to manipulate what the judges think, it would be a very nasty low-handed tactic.

BTW, I brought this up in the V/T thread.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ate-March-26&p=1127513&viewfull=1#post1127513

Just watched the commentary of Trankov - he tried to be polite, but still didn't loose an opportunity to insult D/R a couple of times... In particular, he said the pair figure skating goes in the wrong direction in his opinion (too difficult jumps and throws, but not enough attention to what he calls "pair elements" - like more interesting lifts, transitions and interaction between the partners in the program). He again said that the components of D\R are not deserved. In the end, he said that based on the result of this championship, he is even more confident that he and Tatiana should return to competitions next season and will be be competitive because of their "new" elements (triple flip throw and 3-2-2 jumps) and much higher components!

The comment was made during the Free Skate in Shanghai when Trankov was working again as a commentator for a Russian TV station. In other words, his comments were broadcasted to a lot of viewers.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

When a team pushes the technical envelope and executes harder elements than Maxim and Tatiana ever did, that must develop some sense of insecurity. So it's not surprising to see Trankov be so acerbic in his comments. Regarding the GPF, it's not like Trankov is the first ever Russian commentator to show bias towards other Russians (his teammates/friends, no less). I did notice how Duhamel immediately referred to Trankov as the Olympic Gold medalist -- clearly she's being classy enough to recognize and respect him... honestly, she could have "gone there" and said, as an Olympic Gold medalist he should exhibit more class towards other skaters when being critical of them. I wouldn't be surprised if Trankov dismissed D/R's World Championship saying V/T (or even S/K) weren't there.

Also really funny when he says components of D/R aren't deserved, when V/T have constantly been spared by the judges with high PCS, even when they do poorly... http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1314/gpf1314_Pairs_FS_Scores.pdf ... same goes for GOE (see: their throw errors in their Sochi FS).

I think D/R recognize that they don't fit the typical "pair" mold, and that's perfectly fine. If anything, we should be embracing/lauding skaters that acknowledge that they're not as emotionally connected as other pairs and make up for it with harder difficulty.

To me, D/R's 4STh or SBS 3Z is a lot harder to master than V/T's artistry, because they will always be high-risk and you can make a mistake on it (while I acknowledge superior artistry takes mastery to develop, you can't really "err" on emotional connection/improved artistry).

 

[LRK]

I don't think Duhamel would say this if Trankov didn't say it… and it doesn't mean to be said "in tons of interviews" Once if enough to be disrespectful. I heard as well about the GPF and like you, didn't hear exactly what but heard it was negative… if anyone has that quote, fine but I would give the benefit of the doubt to Duhamel here, simply because it wouldn't make any sense to invent such a story.

So, I'm just trying to find out what we are talking about here - it's the GPF comment and that's it? I'm not accusing Meaghan of anything - the thing is she talks about "interviews" - plural; she may very well have seen interviews that I have not - that's why I noted that I don't follow V/T and therefore don't know what it is we are dealing with here. In fact, I'm not defending or accusing anyone of anything - especially before we have pinned down exactly what the issue is. That's my point, really.

 

[wallylutz]

So, I'm just trying to find out what we are talking about here - it's the GPF comment and that's it?

You have been given the translated quote by Trankov from Shanghai last week just two posts above yours. Was there a GPF in Shanghai recently or do I actually need to spell out: 2015 World Figure Skating Championships?

Note: The translator specifically used the world "again" in the quote, which indicates in English language, something happened more than once.

 

[LRK]

You have been given the translated quote by Trankov from Shanghai last week just two posts above yours. Was there a GPF in Shanghai recently or do I actually need to spell out: 2015 World Figure Skating Championships?

Note: The translator specifically used the world "again" in the quote, which indicates in English language, something happened more than once.

Thanks for pointing that out to me - I don't know why I missed that previously, but it was remiss of me.

 

[Mathman]

Javier Fernandez was not unexpected/atypical World champion, neither Tuktamysheva. Pairs and ice dance were rather unexpected to me.

I don't see how Duhamel and Radford could have been unexpected. All the teams that were ahead of them retired after the Sochi Olympics, and in the 2014-15 season they won every event they entered, essentially without any serious rival.

Dance, I think it was a toss-up between the top three.

 

[BlackPack]

a few thoughts.

1) it's not fair to say that D/R are not artists… they are creative in their own genre. Radford even composes music which they have used in one of their SP. There are different kinds of artistry in this world…. the Russians are amazing in their search for beautiful positions and aesthetic skating. It's however not necessarily what everyone wants to see… it's been the tradition for years however… so how following tradition is more creative than breaking it? For me, an artist is someone who seeks to further themselves and reach for new heights… which is exactly what D/R are doing, in their own way.

Regarding criticism from other athletes: I agree with Duhamel here. Being good sports requires some diplomacy… If Trankov really thinks his points are valid, he doesn't need to put them in the public eye…. it's disrespectful. Often athletes do this because they feel pressure… perhaps with all their hard work D/R have managed to create a bit of fear among other pairs…. fear usually is the motive for such disrespectful comments…. and to your point about "there's nothing to criticize in V/T 's skating.. well… I just did saying that in my very humble opinion, they are simply following a tradition and do not bring anything new to the sport…. Duhamel could have said that herself if she thought that (I do not know whether she would agree or not with my opinion)…… but chose to be classy.

and your last line…. how do you know who they are and what they are interested in creating? I actually felt very emotional watching their SP…. if one understands (and maybe you do but I won't assume that you do or don't) the lyrics of their SP song, the program fits the words perfectly well and brings a unique intertextuality to their skating.

You make good points respectfully which I admire. I don't know if V&M are just following a tradition. It's a standard of pairs skating that was established, but the stories a pair chooses to tell can be effective or not. Just as there are standards of what constitutes a clean jump, there are standards for pairs skating - matching lines and positions constitutes a great deal of a pairs' aesthetics. It somewhat resembles the argument that brother-sister teams don't make good teams, because pairs skating is "supposed" to be about the romantic bond between a man and a woman - D&R aren't your typical romantic team, but are they telling their stories and themes effectively and reaching many people's hearts? I don't know... You say you are moved by their skating, so that's a good thing. I definitely like skaters that 99% of fans today don't care for, and I'm sad they're not recognize more often.

However, there is the situation that a large number of people do not like D&R's skating and style.
I've seen some comments by Duhamel where she is hurt that others don't like their skating or even want them to be World Champions. Now that it is very understandable that she is hurt by that. But they choose to be different. Being different from others results in being misunderstood, judged harshly, and requiring thicker skin. If they aren't the most aesthetically pleasing pair, they know that and went for technical difficulty. They have been successful, but there are people who don't like the direction the sport has taken.

It's hard to blame them. When you've seen the sheer beauty of Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, G&G, M&D, Protopopovs, etc., it's not just a tradition. They were all differently beautiful in their own way. Is it because they're staunch traditionalists who only favor a certain standard of pairs skating or something more?
It's hard to accept musculature and supremely difficult elements executed to elevator muzak with little chemistry if you saw those past programs.

I found Russian commentators and skaters to be very loquacious and vocal. They like to debate. Maybe some cultures aren't used to that - open criticisms (constructive or otherwise). Some cultures value sweeping things under the carpet and just accepting whatever status quo opinion is imposed on them. Some cultures only like to talk about the good and ignore everything else.

You say they're creative. How many people have said their programs are a thing of extraordinary beauty and emotion? I don't know the answer, but I imagine it could be what I'm thinking. An attempt at creativity is nice but whether it is effective or not is another story.

 

[Jaana]

I don't see how Duhamel and Radford could have been unexpected. All the teams that were ahead of them retired after the Sochi Olympics, and in the 2014-15 season they won every event they entered, essentially without any serious rival.

Dance, I think it was a toss-up between the top three.

To me they were as I have not been following pairs skating so much lately... I tried to express this in my earlier posting by putting the words "to me" there, LOL.

 

[4everchan]

what you call elevator muzak is either Radford's own composition of in this year's short, one of the most celebrated French Canadian singer, who is literally bringing people to tears when she sings. Her names is Ginette Reno, the song is called "un peu plus haut" You also put in the same category many Russian teams… for me, they aren't at all the same… some were of exquisite beauty and connection like G&G, some were in my eyes extremely creative with bringing new moves like M&D and some were followers of the traditional and extremely beautiful skating like B&S and V&T… that's how I personally react to their programs … I don't see much creativity in the approach they follow. I don't see them pushing the envelope either….

There's a whole topic about Men's skating in some other thread saying that nobody is skating clean anymore… well… that's simply understood because the guys are taking risks with their jumps… trying to improve the technical standard… For someone who has watched the sport for decades, it's so exciting that we are in a period when we see so many different new jumps attempts or combos… or to see that the jumps are not all jam packed in the first minute of a FP as skaters are trying to max out the CoP…. all of this makes it interesting…. and perhaps it is not as cleanly skated and as beautiful as let's say 5-6 years ago in men's skating but we are going somewhere… it's a cycle….

I remember all the criticism B&E received for not being as elegant as the Russian pairs…. they really struggled in their days. But, they were, like D&R increasing difficulty, not on SBS jumps but on some pair elements like twists and lifts and spirals… they really pushed the sport forward and if still nowadays, I can easily say that they were never my favourite couple, especially with G&G being around then, we still owe them for their own creative way to bring the sport forward. D&R are making waves. People recognize the need to have strong individual skaters as pairs skaters… Canada does that quite well… (Look out for S&B… Seguin lands 3Lz and is also a single skater…they could make waves in the future) so IMHO, there are more than one way of pushing the envelope. Artistry and creativity is not just about smooth skating to a beautiful and emotionally charged piece of music…. it's also developing the sport and there are many different ways to do so, and I just wish people looked at the global picture…. far down the road, we will be happy to see how it is possible to win throwing 4S or because of amazing SBS jumps or simply because of flawless and pure execution… I believe there's room for all of that, and that everyone should respect different approaches…. I don't think it's fair to say that because they don't skate with a romantic connection, or because she is extremely muscular, that it's not worthy of being world champions…. It's a sport… They are athletes… Athletes can be fit no? Do figure skaters always need to project love on the ice? Oh lord… please NO there's enough soap opera on TV it's cultural, fair enough… and people from different backgrounds have different tastes. I simply wish for more respect about the achievements a team is making out there.

You make good points respectfully which I admire. I don't know if V&M are just following a tradition. It's a standard of pairs skating that was established, but the stories a pair chooses to tell can be effective or not. Just as there are standards of what constitutes a clean jump, there are standards for pairs skating - matching lines and positions constitutes a great deal of a pairs' aesthetics. It somewhat resembles the argument that brother-sister teams don't make good teams, because pairs skating is "supposed" to be about the romantic bond between a man and a woman - D&R aren't your typical romantic team, but are they telling their stories and themes effectively and reaching many people's hearts? I don't know... You say you are moved by their skating, so that's a good thing. I definitely like skaters that 99% of fans today don't care for, and I'm sad they're not recognize more often.

However, there is the situation that a large number of people do not like D&R's skating and style.
I've seen some comments by Duhamel where she is hurt that others don't like their skating or even want them to be World Champions. Now that it is very understandable that she is hurt by that. But they choose to be different. Being different from others results in being misunderstood, judged harshly, and requiring thicker skin. If they aren't the most aesthetically pleasing pair, they know that and went for technical difficulty. They have been successful, but there are people who don't like the direction the sport has taken.

It's hard to blame them. When you've seen the sheer beauty of Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze, G&G, M&D, Protopopovs, etc., it's not just a tradition. They were all differently beautiful in their own way. Is it because they're staunch traditionalists who only favor a certain standard of pairs skating or something more?
It's hard to accept musculature and supremely difficult elements executed to elevator muzak with little chemistry if you saw those past programs.

I found Russian commentators and skaters to be very loquacious and vocal. They like to debate. Maybe some cultures aren't used to that - open criticisms (constructive or otherwise). Some cultures value sweeping things under the carpet and just accepting whatever status quo opinion is imposed on them. Some cultures only like to talk about the good and ignore everything else.

You say they're creative. How many people have said their programs are a thing of extraordinary beauty and emotion? I don't know the answer, but I imagine it could be what I'm thinking. An attempt at creativity is nice but whether it is effective or not is another story.

 

[BlackPack]

what you call elevator muzak is either Radford's own composition of in this year's short, one of the most celebrated French Canadian singer, who is literally bringing people to tears when she sings. Her names is Ginette Reno, the song is called "un peu plus haut" You also put in the same category many Russian teams… for me, they aren't at all the same… some were of exquisite beauty and connection like G&G, some were in my eyes extremely creative with bringing new moves like M&D and some were followers of the traditional and extremely beautiful skating like B&S and V&T… that's how I personally react to their programs … I don't see much creativity in the approach they follow. I don't see them pushing the envelope either….

There's a whole topic about Men's skating in some other thread saying that nobody is skating clean anymore… well… that's simply understood because the guys are taking risks with their jumps… trying to improve the technical standard… For someone who has watched the sport for decades, it's so exciting that we are in a period when we see so many different new jumps attempts or combos… or to see that the jumps are not all jam packed in the first minute of a FP as skaters are trying to max out the CoP…. all of this makes it interesting…. and perhaps it is not as cleanly skated and as beautiful as let's say 5-6 years ago in men's skating but we are going somewhere… it's a cycle….

I remember all the criticism B&E received for not being as elegant as the Russian pairs…. they really struggled in their days. But, they were, like D&R increasing difficulty, not on SBS jumps but on some pair elements like twists and lifts and spirals… they really pushed the sport forward and if still nowadays, I can easily say that they were never my favourite couple, especially with G&G being around then, we still owe them for their own creative way to bring the sport forward. D&R are making waves. People recognize the need to have strong individual skaters as pairs skaters… Canada does that quite well… (Look out for S&B… Seguin lands 3Lz and is also a single skater…they could make waves in the future) so IMHO, there are more than one way of pushing the envelope. Artistry and creativity is not just about smooth skating to a beautiful and emotionally charged piece of music…. it's also developing the sport and there are many different ways to do so, and I just wish people looked at the global picture…. far down the road, we will be happy to see how it is possible to win throwing 4S or because of amazing SBS jumps or simply because of flawless and pure execution… I believe there's room for all of that, and that everyone should respect different approaches…. I don't think it's fair to say that because they don't skate with a romantic connection, or because she is extremely muscular, that it's not worthy of being world champions…. It's a sport… They are athletes… Athletes can be fit no? Do figure skaters always need to project love on the ice? Oh lord… please NO there's enough soap opera on TV it's cultural, fair enough… and people from different backgrounds have different tastes. I simply wish for more respect about the achievements a team is making out there.

Yes, I agree that there's room for all kinds of programs and approaches, and there will be because everyone is different. But the reception may not be what you always want - I think Duhamel doesn't get that.

Why didn't Radford skate to the actual Ginette Reno song? He chose his own composition which reminded me of Nancy Kerrigan's Mark Militano renditions of popular music. At least in Nancy's era, there wasn't the option of skating to preppy music with vocals, but it can be done now.

When I mention transcendent beauty, I don't mean it must be romantic or Russian or classical. It can come in many forms. I just question whether D&R really think they are that artistic or are they making pretensions of artistry.

V&T weren't a very creative team. But their Muse Violin by Ikuko Kawaii was incredibly beautiful and powerful. They are actually my least favorite of the Russian Olympic Champion pairs, but their elements and technique were solid. I whined the most when they skated to JCS I really didn't understand that program.

As for B&S, they had creative, trademark Moskvina moves. They were really something else - the ethereal quality of their skating blew me away.

I can accept D&R winning because of high levels of difficulty. I never disputed their win. But they aren't my taste and many others.

Yet, Duhamel has taken it personally that many people don't like their style. If you say that others aren't creative, nor have D&R displayed highly creative moves. They really won because of technical difficulty. Maybe people didn't like the direction the sport has taken because they want to see a Lady Caliph with technical ability to win.

Maybe that's narrow-minded and wrong. But do most people watch skating because it's all numbers and jumps and spins? I think many fans are drawn to the sport for its artistry and it is not surprising when some fans want a more balanced output of artistry and technique.

 

[gkelly]

I figure, sometimes the titles will go to skaters/teams who win the first mark (TES these days), sometimes to those who win the second mark (PCS).

Sometimes the technical winner will be the one who skates cleanest, sometimes the one who attempts the highest difficulty with sufficient success. In pairs, sometimes the higher difficulty will be on pair moves, sometimes on side-by-side moves.

Sometimes the artistic winners will offer the most "beautiful" skating (and there may be some subjectivity in what what qualifies as more beautiful); other times they will be the most creative/groundbreaking.

Sometimes just basic skating skill will outshine either the technical elements or the artistry.

Sometimes a skater or team will come along who excels in several of the above areas, which would make them hard to beat.

I don't expect that the skaters whose strengths are my favorite parts of the sport will always be the ones who win. Sometimes, just being consistently not-bad at everything is all it takes.

I expect fluctuations from year to year and even from competition to competition in what kind of strengths seem to be dominating, as much dependent on who manages to exhibit those strengths than on any firm policy in rule changes or judging trends. Until there's a long-lasting trend where certain types of strengths never seem to get rewarded no matter how well displayed, I wouldn't summarize skaters with other strengths winning as symptomatic of the way the sport as a whole is going.

 

[sunnystars]

D/R at the moment reminds me of how Simone Biles is in gymnastics. Maybe you don't like their skating or whatever, but they're pushing forward the sport without losing who they are, just like Simone with WAG.

Although I am more impressed by Simone b/c she still hasn't reached her potential

 

[Becki]

Yes, Meagan did take Maxim's comments quite personally - but honestly, who wouldn't? It hurts to have your competitors publicly criticize you over and over again. D/R are an amazing team - they've worked so hard to achieve what they have, but instead of acknowledging their efforts to push the technical envelope and improve the sport, they are receiving so much criticism.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I found Russian commentators and skaters to be very loquacious and vocal. They like to debate. Maybe some cultures aren't used to that - open criticisms (constructive or otherwise). Some cultures value sweeping things under the carpet and just accepting whatever status quo opinion is imposed on them. Some cultures only like to talk about the good and ignore everything else.

You say they're creative. How many people have said their programs are a thing of extraordinary beauty and emotion? I don't know the answer, but I imagine it could be what I'm thinking. An attempt at creativity is nice but whether it is effective or not is another story.

Yeah, but not everyone is looking for beauty and emotion. I say S/K and P/T have programs that exhibit emotion, but they don't have extraordinary difficulty (V/T don't have the hardest throws or SBS jumps, but at least they do two SBS triples and have some difficult lifts).

As far as Russian commentators being vocal/loquacious... that's fine, but I hate when commentators show obvious bias towards their skaters (it's not just the Russians that do that, but I feel they tend to hit below the belt more). Maybe it's the lack of intonation but whenever I see a Youtube vid of a program with the Russian commentator, invariably he seems just so unimpressed by everything by anyone who isn't Russian. The British commentators, on the other hand, will criticize PCS marks from time to time, but they still provide a lot of positive feedback too.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Yes, Meagan did take Maxim's comments quite personally - but honestly, who wouldn't? It hurts to have your competitors publicly criticize you over and over again. D/R are an amazing team - they've worked so hard to achieve what they have, but instead of acknowledging their efforts to push the technical envelope and improve the sport, they are receiving so much criticism.

Well, like I said, they're going to get haterade from skaters who can't execute the difficult elements that they do (let alone even attempt them). It's understandable that Meagan is upset by Trankov's comments, but she should hardly be surprised.

Everyone's fine with D/R trying harder elements when they weren't consistent with them, but now that D/R have consistent SBS 3Z, improved lifts/twist, and a surprisingly consistent 4STh, all of a sudden people/their competitors are looking for a reason to tear them down. It's ironic, because Russia's been a pioneer in pushing for harder technical difficulty and all of a sudden when somebody else is pushing the technical envelope they realise they have to make changes to keep up.

Sorry Trankov if SBS 2A/3T, 3Tw, and 3S/3L throws are now merely par for the course, and pairs are finally trying big-league tricks.

 

[4everchan]

Why didn't Radford skate to the actual Ginette Reno song? He chose his own composition which reminded me of Nancy Kerrigan's Mark Militano renditions of popular music. At least in Nancy's era, there wasn't the option of skating to preppy music with vocals, but it can be done now.

last year SP was radford own music..
this year's SP is the ginette reno song.

 

[silverfoxes]

I hope that none of the people putting down Trankov here for expressing his opinions ever defended PChan for the many negative things he said about his competitors.

I think he did nothing wrong by sharing his honest thoughts about their skating - which seem to be in line with >90% of the general consensus about D/R, let's be honest. If he crossed the line and got personal, and said some of the things like I've read on GS, about Megan looking manly and things like that, it would be absolutely wrong. But nothing he said even comes close to that.