Backloading Bonus Limited By ISU

[Baron Vladimir]

^^^
From what i recall all of them started the program with jump/combo followed by jump/combo as third element and next jump/combo was at the moment when bonus begun.... All placed 2 jumps passes and one spin in the first half. And nobody started the programme witb StSq for example...So distribution of jump elements was exactly the same in every programme.. (edit: no matter if someone's last jump was 2A, 3A or 3A-5T but that last jump was placed at the same point of time in every programme, just like the two before them)

 

[BillNeal]

I think for the short program there shouldn't have been any bonus.

Really its a 2.5 min program, why would there be a stamina bonus for that.

This change was adopted in the 2012-2013 season. There was no bonus in SP before that.

 

[Harriet]

^^^
From what i recall all of them started the program with jump/combo followed by jump/combo as third element and next jump/combo was at the moment when bonus begun.... All placed 2 jumps passes and one spin in the first half. And nobody started the programme witb StSq for example...So distribution of jump elements was exactly the same in every programme...

Most of the girls started with one or two jumps, but Maia Mazarra had an FCSp2, StSq2 and LSp2 before her first jump, and at least two of her jumping passes were in the second half of the program, possibly all three (I haven't watched it yet to be sure). Viktoria Bjornsdottir started with a CCoSp4 and Savita Refa Zahira started with an LSp4.

Three out of thirty-four may not be many, but it does indicate that some people are testing out new varieties of layout, at least.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Most of the girls started with one or two jumps, but Maia Mazarra had an FCSp2, StSq2 and LSp2 before her first jump, and at least two of her jumping passes were in the second half of the program, possibly all three (I haven't watched it yet to be sure). Viktoria Bjornsdottir started with a CCoSp4 and Savita Refa Zahira started with an LSp4.

Three out of thirty-four may not be many, but it does indicate that some people are testing out new varieties of layout, at least.

Hopefully the judges reward any backloading with higher PCS now. Seems like you could so under the current rules.

I just hope we see some more programs start with a StSeq. That was a pleasant surprise that came about and often fit programs that started off softly. I hadn’t seen that before the last few seasons.

 

[Harriet]

Hopefully the judges reward any backloading with higher PCS now. Seems like you could so under the current rules.

I just hope we see some more programs start with a StSeq. That was a pleasant surprise that came about and often fit programs that started off softly. I hadn’t seen that before the last few seasons.

I do enjoy the occasional program that begin with a step sequence, but it makes it trickier for young skaters to build momentum going into later elements. It's the sort of choreography that works best for experienced seniors at their full power, I think.

I don't know that backloading jumps should result in higher PCS automatically, though. I think it should only increase PCS if it's done a) well and b) meaningfully.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I don't know that backloading jumps should result in higher PCS automatically, though. I think it should only increase PCS if it's done a) well and b) meaningfully.

Of course...that’s just good judging

 

[Triple loop]

A balanced program is more pleasing to the eye. However, I guess Zagitova is being punished for being too good and a champion at a young age. Funny how history repeats itself with the Zayak rule being named after the American world champion at age 16.

 

[Isabel_O'Reilly]

A balanced program is more pleasing to the eye. However, I guess Zagitova is being punished for being too good and a champion at a young age. Funny how history repeats itself with the Zayak rule being named after the American world champion at age 16.

But pleasing to whose eye? Balance of elements just like beauty and art is subjective not objective. Seeing the same pattern or approximately the same pattern of elements for 24 programs is just as unbalanced as 3/4 programs that are entirely backloaded. Also in certain cases asymmetry is more pleasing. When people arrange their surrounding possessions how many people prefer to place items so that they follow an equal pattern and how many will place them so that some are in clusters and one area might look emptier but overall the layout would be more agreeable.

If half of programs being backloaded became the norm then this rule might have been needed. As it stands it just puts unnecessary limits on skaters because no matter what the majority of skaters would have never fully backloaded either because they aren't physically capable of doing so or because the risk is not worth the reward in their opinion.

 

[chopinskate]

Hey guys remember when the system wasn't an utter mess, and points were actually deservedly given to skaters who skated well and had programs that made sense, without people talking nonsensical crap about backloading/frontloading?

Nor do I.

The fact that the PCS/TES has made it so that the skaters never lift a finger if they aren't receiving a fraction of a point for it is a tragedy.

 

[Seren]

The rule still encourages technical excellence- we will see more difficult combos in the second half. I think it also frees skaters up choreographically because now they aren't so compelled to put everything in the second half. I don't think it's a bad thing- it's actually a generally good middle ground.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

Absolutely.

I mean really, if having all three jumping passes as the last elements was the right move choreographically...then wouldn't people do it regardless of if they get more points.

I feel like people want it both ways.

"Backloading is a show of athleticism NOT a point grab of the system"
"Backloaded programs are well balanced and fit the music"

So if those WERE true, why didn't we see any today??

Furthermore, wouldn't judges reward those programs with high GOE for the sheer athleticism of it all?

Because why would you do it if it wouldn't help you? It IS a show of athleticism, which is why it should be rewarded, but if there's no use to it, why would a skater do something harder without getting rewarded for it?

 

[mrrice]

Because why would you do it if it wouldn't help you? It IS a show of athleticism, which is why it should be rewarded, but if there's no use to it, why would a skater do something harder without getting rewarded for it?

Exactly.....It is much harder to jump after 3:00 Mins and if you don't get credit for it...I say front load all the way.

 

[gkelly]

I do enjoy the occasional program that begin with a step sequence, but it makes it trickier for young skaters to build momentum going into later elements. It's the sort of choreography that works best for experienced seniors at their full power, I think.

I often used to see backloaded short programs by juniors who didn't have triples back in the 6.0 era.

We may still see that, from juniors who think that double solo jump and/or double-double combo late in the program are more impressive than getting those jumps out of the way early. If anything, they may find that IJS step sequences and spins are more aerobically demanding than the double jumps.

These skaters would probably keep the double axel early in the program if it's the hardest jump they're attempting.

These skaters wouldn't be contenders and so wouldn't get as much attention. However, they might feel that easier jumps late in the program will help them stand out against competitors who might be trying 3S+2T or 3T+2T early on.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

What I would like to see is that a backloading bonus gives a noticeable, but not excessive advantage. Probably the example that bothered me the most is the Olympic team event and comparing Alina and Mirai's BV (http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/owg2018/OWG2018_TeamLadies_FS_F_Scores.pdf)

Alina's BV tops Mirai's with a 3A and 7 other triples. Had Mirai achieved the highest levels on her non jump elements (add 1.0 to element 4, 0.6 to element 9), her 8 triple program's BV would only top Alina's by 0.16. Mirai even had 3 of her harder triples in the bonus. Leaving aside GOE and PCS, the BV of those programs shouldn't have even been close IMO. They both repeat the flip, but Alina repeats the lutz while Mirai does the toe. However, Mirai does the 3A while Alina only the 2A. I understand the argument that Mirai could have backloaded more of her jumps, but my problem is with the system that excessively rewards the jump bonus in the first place. I'm glad the changes will reflect a more fair and sensible approach.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Boy you could really tell how tiring doing a FS is by watching the boys on the JGP today

 

[Triple loop]

Wow

 

[Ziotic]

Because why would you do it if it wouldn't help you? It IS a show of athleticism, which is why it should be rewarded, but if there's no use to it, why would a skater do something harder without getting rewarded for it?

To show your athletic prowess, to show you are better and receive higher GOE.

That is literally what I’m saying. If someone is doing something harder. It follows that judges will give higher scores.

Just as judges give more points for more difficult spin positions and more rotations.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

It wouldn't receive higher GOE, though, because jumps in the bonus are understandably lower in height and so might not clear the first 3 bullets to hit the rest

 

[Ziotic]

It wouldn't receive higher GOE, though, because jumps in the bonus are understandably lower in height and so might not clear the first 3 bullets to hit the rest

So maybe it’s more athletic to just have large powerful flowing jumps throughout?

 

[Spirals for Miles]

The judges could see it that way. But there are many ways to define athletic: high jumps, backloaded jumps, insane step sequences, etc.