Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system

[Taan]

Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system that won't keep pace
2-time world champs want technical difficulty to factor more in scoring
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...duhamel-eric-radford-judging-system-1.3947515

"It's frustrating, the fact that we know how hard these things are and not being rewarded for how difficult they are," said Duhamel, a 31-year-old from Lively, Ont.......The two have spoken to numerous technical specialists within the international skating community, and have been told that no changes can be made until after the Pyeongchang Olympics.

"But, why not?" said Radford, a 31-year-old from Balmertown, Ont. "How does it change other than make the sport more accurate in itself?"......"I believe there are specific people in the skating world and the [International Skating Union] who are afraid of a runaway effect — of a skater coming along that can do so much technically that they're going to beat the most artistic. But if you eliminate that aspect of it and you say 'Oh no, the artistry has to be the most important,' I would be the first person to say that you should take figure skating out of the Olympics. Because it's not a real sport if you take that away."

:cool14::cool14:

 

[olayolay]

They're always complaining about something.

 

[Violet Bliss]

They're always complaining about something.

Rightfully.

 

[bestolen]

But they are right.
If someone blah blah artistry is the most important aspect.
Why don't they just go to watch ballet.

 

[maddiesparks]

Duhamel fighting the good fight, lol.

I do kind of agree with her, but at the same time you have to work within the system you're in... and the thing I love about figure skating is the blend of athleticism and artistry. There should be a healthy give and take, but one shouldn't really overshadow the other.

 

[olayolay]

Given their ridiculously inflated PCS, they're already getting the points they think they should be getting with a 3A and 4S throw.

 

[da96103]

As much as what Radford said makes sense, major changes should only be made after the Olympics because the other teams had trained and strategized according to the current rules. Even though there is no official designation that says that the Olympic Figure Skating event is the climax of every 4-year period, it has always assumed to be so.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Risk and rewards being unmatched is especially exaggerated and ignored by the ISU in the Pairs discipline. E.g. Synchronizing sbs elements are very difficult but they don't get higher points than doing it solo in Singles, yet are severely penalized with any mistake from one of the partners. Of course, as D/R pointed out, there are measly few points to gain with huge risk when they do much much harder elements.

Any corrective changes in scoring, including equalizing PCS and TES for Mens, will not come in time for the more mature current skaters.

 

[4everchan]

As much as what Radford said makes sense, major changes should only be made after the Olympics because the other teams had trained and strategized according to the current rules. Even though there is no official designation that says that the Olympic Figure Skating event is the climax of every 4-year period, it has always assumed to be so.

i disagree with that entirely... the ISU plans things for 4 years.. .but if they realise it's not working out, why not change it right away??? Why live with it for 4 years???? ... the change will affect all the teams at once...and actually, the teams that were in right after sochi??? where are they???? there is already different skaters... same with singles...

for instance, I think they are referring to throws...Meagan, when they decided to change their throw 3A into3F even mentioned that the 3F was way easier than the 3Lz.... but worth the same... That's very weird don't you think so???

Also, the quad throws are so hard yet worth so little.... Meagan and Eric have had to push the sport so far to get where they are since other team doing the 1990s content were winning with +++GOE and +++++PCS on the basis that they look like a happy disney loving couple...

While in singles, adding a second quad in your SP is possible and there is no limit on how many quads a kid can put in his LP to raise BV by a landslide, in pairs, they cannot get credit for what they do....

It is obvious that their style of skating is not valued. It is time for them to lobby even if nothing gets changed until the Olympics, so that their legacy isn't erased when they retire...

I hope that when they leave the competitive sport, we will still see exciting side by side jumps and huge throws...

Oh and BTW.. I was at Canadian Nationals... only one team truly got their spins in synch... were they rewarded by much?? No...SBS spins are so hard to do... yet, teams don't get penalized for lack of synch, yet, they get penalized because there isn't much flow out of a freaking SBS 3lutzes???? COME ON!!!

Yes... you can say they are outspoken... but they are right.

 

[bobbob]

I can understand that they think the quad or 3a is not worth enough...the Chinese a number of years ago also struggled with this, I think.

...but while you're at it why don't you also petition for a fair assessment of skating skills, choreography, and interpretation? Oh right, it's going to hurt your scores.

 

[Alchamei]

D/R don't understand what figure skating is about.

Artistry can't be naturally the most important thing in the sport. It solely doesn't win you medals. But figure skating is about the balance of athletism and artistry. And that has always been the season why it attracted so many people during the Olympics. You don't have to play theatre on ice how V/M are sometimes doing. You don't to be balletic like Sasha Cohen. But you have to find the balance to win technically and artistically.

Imagine you are a random spectator at the Olympics. Whose performance will attract you more? D/R with their quad and 3 Axel throws that mainly, are not very appealing technique wise? Or a team like Sui and Han, who not only perform difficult elements like quad Twist, but can draw you in? And you could make this argument also about pair like Pang/Tong, but vice versa, they had the artistry but their solo jumps sucked and the rest of their elements wasn't groundbreaking.

Also, D/R are acting like they are breaking new ground with their tech difficulty, but that's all their have. I mean that their throws, lifts and other elements might be difficult, but they look so laboured and not well done. I'll take S/H and S/K ThFlip everyday.

But again to the balance point, look at the holy trinity of ladies skating, Yuna, Mao, Caro. Did they win solely on their artistry? No way, all of them did unique elements and combos at their time. And look who's winning in Men now. Yuzuru, and not just because of his jumps, otherwise
Boyang would not try to improve his programs. And not solely because of the artistry, because Shoma would otherwise not work hard to improve his technique, and Patrick wouldn't go for the quad Sal.

To sum up, I never liked D/R because they focused solely on one aspect of skating and now they sank down for me, as they don't want to admit that they are not the ultimate best pair of this generation.

 

[4everchan]

Have you seen them skate live??? ^^^ the "they are so bad PCS wise" is something very easy to find on this forum... and I was prepared to see it as well.. however, it's not true. They are faster, detail oriented, always looking out for perfect movements.

I actually believe more and more that they have been pidgeon-holed as a "no-connection" team by people who are afraid of what they can accomplish...there was tons of artistry in their skating.

 

[solani]

I get their point but I also think that nothing should be changed before the next Olympics simply because that would be unfair to many other teams.
And some possible rule-changes regarding how quads should be valuated could be bad for them as well (if f.e. height and distance would be more important for GOE). My point is that the ISU could come up with rule changes that they wouldn't like much and I guess they would also be unnerved if that happened so shortly before the next Olympics. Athletes need and deserve the time to adapt to rule changes. Yes, the best can adapt quickly but that doesn't mean that it's fair. (I've seen this once with ski-jumping, the rules were changed right before the Olympic season, it was a major change and it backfired on those who wanted that change because the others were able to adapt which was kind of satisfying afterwards, but it wasn't fair.)

 

[bobbob]

Have you seen them skate live??? ^^^ the "they are so bad PCS wise" is something very easy to find on this forum... and I was prepared to see it as well.. however, it's not true. They are faster, detail oriented, always looking out for perfect movements.

I actually believe more and more that they have been pidgeon-holed as a "no-connection" team by people who are afraid of what they can accomplish...there was tons of artistry in their skating.

Do you seriously think they have more artistry than say, Lubov and Dylan, who got lower compenents scores? Maybe they have good speed as individual skaters, but one does not need to be there in person to notice their lack of skating skills, choreography, and no feel for music at all. I don't really know what being there in person adds. Any elements of choreography in their programs are reused year after year, I can even point out the dance lifts/transitions used in their programs last year and the year before. They don't have any harmony as a pair and her posture in several instances is terrible. She comes to a complete standstill before a couple of the big throws. Their footwork is completely out of sync and the two have no connection to each other. Lifts have basic positions that never change and look labored on the way up, especially the reverse lasso lift. Throws may have lots of rotations but have low ice coverage and height, as well as bad posture from her. Transitions are complex but are extremely awkward. Lots of crossovers. Lack of flow throughout. There may be lots of attempts at "artistry" but the natural flow, unity, and grace from basic skating together is not there.

Okay, compared to most pairs in the world their components are above average. But we're talking about top in the world, of course not.

No one is afraid of what they can accomplish, the current judging system which bases PCS off of technical difficulty has allowed them to succeed clearly and they can go far. If PCS are judged totally independently of TES however, they would not even be a threat.

 

[4everchan]

^^^ i beg to disagree on what you are saying about D/R ... I find especially strange that you write that they are not musical at all when Eric's moves live the music perfectly and he leads and partners Meagan so well.

Yes, I love Dylan and Lubov. Exquisite positions... yes... but come on, if you are going to play the game of "they use the same lifts over and over" well most teams do.... same in Ice dance... and most single skaters have their set patterns entering jumps... the fact that you recognize their patterns is simply linked to them having a long and good career.

 

[bobbob]

^^^ i beg to disagree on what you are saying about D/R ... I find especially strange that you write that they are not musical at all when Eric's moves live the music perfectly and he leads and partners Meagan so well.

Yes, I love Dylan and Lubov. Exquisite positions... yes... but come on, if you are going to play the game of "they use the same lifts over and over" well most teams do.... same in Ice dance... and most single skaters have their set patterns entering jumps... the fact that you recognize their patterns is simply linked to them having a long and good career.

Who do you really think has better components (skating skills, flow/transitions, choreography, interpretation, lines, positions, etc) Lubov and Dylan or Meagan and Eric?

 

[rosy14]

It's the known problem: better Chen who jumps or Brown who is a very good performer ? Actually, in my opinion, that's a false problem: when a skater (single or in pair) knows how to skate AND to perform, he/she/is the winner. Even in the past Boitano, Orser, Browning, Urmanov were winner NOT ONLY for their performance and artistry, BUT ALSO and EVEN MORE for their jumps and spins and steps and vfigures (spread eagles, etc) . The same applies to women or pairs.
I like Duhamel/Redford, especially him because he's a very good skater AND very gifted artistically. Sometimes they can melt the ice with their execution, sometimes not. But this has nothing to do with the IJS: if you stumble on the Lutz or miss a lifting (as it happened this year in the GP series), it's the TES that falls much more than the artistry.
I agree that a more difficult jump or a throw or a twist well executed should be rewarded more, as the syncronicity of the SBS and spins, BUT if a more difficult twist is not well executed or a more difficult jump/throw is a mess, it must be scored less than a simpler element very well performed.
The problem, as always with a judging system, is WHO judges and HIS/HER parameters of good /medium/bad execution. When assessing quality and not quantity (double/triple/quadruple are quantity) there is ALWAYS an element of subjectivity, and complicating or modifying the system one year before Olympics is not going to put it away.
if D/R at Worlds execute their programmes very well, they will again win, because even now they have a very good technical component. Furhermore their rivals are all coming back from injuries and none has already competed internationally, except the Germans (and Massot is NOT Eric). So they are disadvantaged compared to D/R. I don't think the Chinese or the Germans will try difficult tricks after the injuries, not to mention S/K, which have never been much superior in the technical components.

 

[lappo]

i disagree with that entirely... the ISU plans things for 4 years.. .but if they realise it's not working out, why not change it right away??? Why live with it for 4 years???? ... the change will affect all the teams at once...and actually, the teams that were in right after sochi??? where are they???? there is already different skaters... same with singles...
.

I don't think ISU should change things a year before the Olympics because, as someone already mentioned, it would affect skaters who are preparing themselves following that rules and trying to make the most of them. Same with singles: as much as I don't like too many tanos and superbackloaded programs, would you think it right to put limits now? Even though I prefer more balanced programs, I really understand and admire the way the Russian girls are trying to hit those bullets; so any change should IMO be made after 2018.

 

[andromache]

The singles disciplines reward difficulty way more than pairs does, and I think that's a little unfair. Quads, backloading, etc. If a woman has no artistry but clean jumps and a 3A, she's gold medal material. I'm not sure why difficulty is rewarded so much in singles but not in pairs.

That said, I also think complaining about the current system is going to make any skater come off as a little bitter/sour grapes. You've known what the system rewards and what it doesn't.

But I also don't get all the hate D/R get regarding components. They have a ton of choreography, transitions, and their interpretation is usually not particularly nuanced, but still definitely there. Skating skills are weakest. I also detect a very strong connection between them. Idk, I've just never gotten the "D/R are bad at PCS" narrative.

 

[4everchan]

bobbob...

Dylan and Lubov have exquisite lifts and throws. They had lovely moments but they are way out of synch at times... they haven't yet mastered SBS jumps and spins. and you know what, those mistakes ruin programs (and really??? Josh Groban??? please), just as badly as a big fall on a throw for Meagan. So perhaps removing rose colored glasses may help here... Right now, there is not a single team who has it all.... and performs it all regularly.


What D/R are saying is that they are not rewarded for pushing the envelope so they might as well be reverting to lower content .... How is that a progression in the sport when teams finally break the pattern of the traditional 1990s pair content and style and they are not given any reward for it, yet they take all the risks??

When men fall on their quads, they still score over a triple... 4S going down (10.50 - 4 GOE -1 for the fall = 5.5 points) 3S landed with 0 GOE = 4.4
4Sthrow going down (8.2- 3GOE - 1 for fall = 4.2) 3Sth with 0 goe = 4.5 So in singles, a man taking risks on the 4S would still score above the base value of a triple... but in pairs, the base value of a throw triple is higher than the score received for a fall on a quad...

it is unfair... and that is the content of the article... not whether or not Meagan has lesser skating skills than Lubov... you are highjacking this thread.