Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system

[4everchan]

I don't think ISU should change things a year before the Olympics because, as someone already mentioned, it would affect skaters who are preparing themselves following that rules and trying to make the most of them. Same with singles: as much as I don't like too many tanos and superbackloaded programs, would you think it right to put limits now? Even though I prefer more balanced programs, I really understand and admire the way the Russian girls are trying to hit those bullets; so any change should IMO be made after 2018.

i think teams can adapt quicker than we think... look at Meagan and Eric.... apparently her foot is hurting on the 3T... new combo... new SBS jump... first ever team to land SBS 3Lz-2T

Too risky with 3Athrow... bye bye... new entrance into a 3F throw.

Constant change of choreography this season... to make the program better..... ice dance teams do it all season long.

Do not underestimate high level athletes abilities to change things and adapt quickly to new rules.

Using the olympic cycle to promote the status quo is just a lame excuse... I have seen the complaints about the ISJ for pairs being way off for years... it is not a new thing... but who was complaining before? Nobody because nobody was trying to include those elements. Actually, the leaders a few years ago were completely happy with the archaic scoring, even saying they would NEVER do quads... Now, when the two time world champions and innovators in that aspect of the discipline are saying it loud and clear, I hope people listen and stop diverting the conversation blaming them for other things...

I don't think D/R are silly enough to think that the rules will change just before the games and they will get some advantage... but they are speaking up for next generations.... if not, bye bye quads, bye bye hard SBS jumps... teams will revert to their throw salchows and throws loops and SBS 3t and 3s... we even saw 2A throw in the GPF... ermmm okay.... blast from the past...

If you follow canadian skating... this week was the nationals and in the junior pairs, we are seeing the D/R effect. Many teams have harder throws like the 3Lzth. We even saw 3Tw3 with positive GOE which is something even many senior pairs struggle with. It is important for D/R to promote their sport and how they feel it can develop. Changing those rules will help others if it doesn't help them.

 

[moriel]

Well, just saying, artistic aspects are as hard as technical ones (else, everybody would be getting 100 pcs, right?)

While i do support technical above artistic, imho pairs is an exception: due to specifics of the discipline, the hardest elements are also very dangerous - more dangerous that ones in singles. This is why i think scoring should remain as it is - honestly, if pairs will start having as many falls from twists and throws and the singles fall from their regular jumps, i´ll be among first to sign a petition to forbid those things from competition at all.
I guess you guys all remember a couple of horrid falls we had witnessed this season, right?

 

[solani]

bobbob...

Dylan and Lubov have exquisite lifts and throws. They had lovely moments but they are way out of synch at times... they haven't yet mastered SBS jumps and spins. and you know what, those mistakes ruin programs (and really??? Josh Groban??? please), just as badly as a big fall on a throw for Meagan. So perhaps removing rose colored glasses may help here... Right now, there is not a single team who has it all.... and performs it all regularly.


What D/R are saying is that they are not rewarded for pushing the envelope so they might as well be reverting to lower content .... How is that a progression in the sport when teams finally break the pattern of the traditional 1990s pair content and style and they are not given any reward for it, yet they take all the risks??

When men fall on their quads, they still score over a triple... 4S going down (10.50 - 4 GOE -1 for the fall = 5.5 points) 3S landed with 0 GOE = 4.4
4Sthrow going down (8.2- 3GOE - 1 for fall = 4.2) 3Sth with 0 goe = 4.5 So in singles, a man taking risks on the 4S would still score above the base value of a triple... but in pairs, the base value of a throw triple is higher than the score received for a fall on a quad...

it is unfair... and that is the content of the article... not whether or not Meagan has lesser skating skills than Lubov... you are highjacking this thread.

I see what you mean but I don't think that your point of view is level-headed. You have to consider pairs skating as a whole, not only the top pairs. Meagan was/is a very good singles skater and we all know that she is a very good jumper. And we know that many girls who are not very good jumpers switch to pairs. That's also why their throws aren't very big, Meagan is doing most of the work and that makes it also safer for her. Doing those quads is dangerous business and a rule change like Meagan and Eric want it would help the strong ladies jumpers immensely and we would very likely have more ladies injured. That would also mean that you just can't chose weak female jumpers for pairs skating any longer, it would change the sport in the long term. The question is - do we want that, is this where the sport wants to go? My opinion is that this wouldn't help the sport at all, we would have a lesser number of pairs in the long term.
And I want to add that Meagan and Eric already have a huge advantage because of their side by side jumps and it's well deserved. They have won two WC's with it. But pairs skating isn't only about jumps (Meagan and Eric's spins are great I want to add).

 

[lappo]

I do agree that they are making good points advocating for higher scoring for difficult elements; I follow more singles and, to make a comparison, I would be more than glad to have ISU change 3-3 values (not scoring 3+3 but taking into account the real difficulty of the various combinations). That would be a way to have more people training more difficult combinations, that are currently not worth the risk. I guess the same goes with pairs and, even if they aren't my favourite pairs, I really admire them for their guts in wanting to make the sport better for future generations.

ETA: also, what Moriel is saying, should also be taken carefully into account before making changes of sort. The reason why I don't watch pairs is that it scares me too much (I guess I had been shocked as a child by Totmianina...) and so I really make huge breaths when at the end of competitions I learn that no one got injuried. Seriously, pairs are really tough!

 

[4everchan]

I see what you mean but I don't think that your point of view is level-headed. You have to consider pairs skating as a whole, not only the top pairs. Meagan was/is a very good singles skater and we all know that she is a very good jumper. And we know that many girls who are not very good jumpers switch to pairs. That's also why their throws aren't very big, Meagan is doing most of the work and that makes it also safer for her. Doing those quads is dangerous business and a rule change like Meagan and Eric want it would help the strong ladies jumpers immensely and we would very likely have more ladies injured. That would also mean that you just can't chose weak female jumpers for pairs skating any longer, it would change the sport in the long term. The question is - do we want that, is this where the sport wants to go? My opinion is that this wouldn't help the sport at all, we would have a lesser number of pairs in the long term.
And I want to add that Meagan and Eric already have a huge advantage because of their side by side jumps and it's well deserved. They have won two WC's with it. But pairs skating isn't only about jumps (Meagan and Eric's spins are great I want to add).

two things here
1) i would also add that Eric lifts Meagan in a very smooth and comfortable manner. Fine, perhaps, her positions aren't ultimate but never, I felt fear when he lifted her. Their twist this weekend was spectacular... I was surprised to see how good it was, same with the death spiral ... so they also excel in pair skating elements.

2) I wouldn't say that pair girls are always chosen because they are weak jumpers... Look at Julianne Seguin... She also has all her triples... Kirsten is a very solid jumper too. I disagree with your comment : maybe in some countries pair girls are the ones who aren't strong jumpers but I would say that the main factor is size. And of course, there is the "I WANT TO DO PAIRS" factor like Camille Ruest who said she loves being lifted and thrown around.
I think what really dictated the discipline was the ability to be lifted... so size was the most important factor, and then, flexibility came second as it allowed great looks in those lifts and on the pair spins etc...

I think it's a bit naive to think that pair girls are the weak jumpers... I mean any girl in Russia's top 20 has all triples right? So the one who would decide to do pairs would be a girl who is small enough and really wants to do something else... or a girl who has the competitive need in her and wants to keep skating. I don't think Stolbova who can do 3t-3t-2t combos is a weak jumper...

For their throw technique, they have explained that she does most of the work as they don't want to be injured. Why aren't other teams doing that? That's for them to answer.

Pairs has always had less competitors than any other discipline. That is not about to change in my opinion. I think that it is simply a question of pool of available skaters willing to do it and then, will they be good matches, within a country ? That's very tough and explains the so many expats doing pairs... my heart goes to Mervin who is denied competing internationally because he has not skated much for Canada ever, lack of suitable partner...

 

[solani]

two things here
1) i would also add that Eric lifts Meagan in a very smooth and comfortable manner. Fine, perhaps, her positions aren't ultimate but never, I felt fear when he lifted her. Their twist this weekend was spectacular... I was surprised to see how good it was, same with the death spiral ... so they also excel in pair skating elements.

2) I wouldn't say that pair girls are always chosen because they are weak jumpers... Look at Julianne Seguin... She also has all her triples... Kirsten is a very solid jumper too. I disagree with your comment : maybe in some countries pair girls are the ones who aren't strong jumpers but I would say that the main factor is size. And of course, there is the "I WANT TO DO PAIRS" factor like Camille Ruest who said she loves being lifted and thrown around.
I think what really dictated the discipline was the ability to be lifted... so size was the most important factor, and then, flexibility came second as it allowed great looks in those lifts and on the pair spins etc...

I think it's a bit naive to think that pair girls are the weak jumpers... I mean any girl in Russia's top 20 had all triples right? So the one who would decide to do pairs would be a girl who is small enough and really wants to do something else... or a girl who has the competitive need in her and wants to keep skating. I don't think Stolbova who can do 3t-3t-2t combos is a weak jumper...

For their throw technique, they have explained that she does most of the work as they don't want to be injured. Why aren't other teams doing that? That's for them to answer.

Pairs has always had less competitors than any other discipline. That is not about to change in my opinion. I think that it is simply a question of pool of available skaters willing to do it and will then be good matches... within a country... that's very tough and explains the so many expats doing pairs... my heart goes to Mervin who is denied competing internationally because he has not skated much for Canada ever, lack of suitable partner...

You are talking about the top pairs and yes, Stolbova and Seguin are very good jumpers as well. I was talking about juniors as well, skaters where you don't yet know how they're going to develop. A sport always has to take all levels of athletes into consideration. Remember when teeny Sui did her quad throws? Her body had to take a lot.
My opinion is that in pairs skating there should be more than one strategy to be competitive, it's a very complex sport. For those who can't do a quad throw a quad twist is a possible option. A pair who can do both has a huge advantage of course. Good side by side jumps are a necessity to win a medal at Worlds already. I don't want to lose many potentially good pairs skaters to ice dance.
I have to add that I'm not a huge fan of Meagan and Eric's quad throw, I think I have mentioned this before. I can see why they do it, it's impressive that they can do it and they get fair points for it imo. But it's not what I call a beautiful throw. Only looking at the technical we have to take the GOE into account as well and they could definitely do better there on some of their elements. They have all the tricks they need to become Olympic champions, they probably only have to polish everything a little bit more. And I want to add that I like them as a pair.

 

[4everchan]

well of course, everyone needs to improve... this year, their LP is more difficult to appreciate... they are pushing themselves with a lyrical theme... I am pretty sure we will get a muse/adele sort of song next year i admire that at 31, they are open to learning while others shut down technical/artistic improvements.

 

[QuadThrow]

This is a really hard and emotional thread.

There are many good arguments for increasing the BV of quads/3ATh in pair skating and there are some arguments against this. Meagan is the best example that Quad are very hard indeed.

But the point is that Meagan is kind of complaining against the current system right at the moment their points are dropping! Obviously she is not pleased with their score from nationals although their score was ok.

If she had argued against it after worlds 2016 this would have been another discussion. D/R should not complain about the system because this system made them World champions since of their big PCS and GOE they have never really deserved.

Yes. they have very good DS and spins but we can add some weaknesses as well.

 

[Violet Bliss]

Are they pushing for scoring changes right now? I didn't get that from the reading unless I forget. But they are frustrated right now, dropping huge under-rewarded risky elements for better safer competition results leading up to the Big Game.

Their points about unfair scoring of big risky Pairs elements are valid. Someone, preferably skaters, preferably some big names, should speak up. But who else? Their competitors without these elements? :sarcasm:

ISU has instituted changes re quads in response to criticisms. To get their attention and hopefully actions, either a lot of people complain or a high status skater or two need to raise the issue, even if voicing it invites inevitable criticism and even personal attacks. Even if it's self serving, it serves the sport. Bravo for Worlds Champions who speak for the rest of the skaters, especially future ones, whether it's about the scoring system, treatment of skaters, rink conditions, etc.

 

[Mista Ekko]

I won't get into the Sport Vs. Art argument,

But on the subject of point worth for new difficult elements in Pairs they're absolutely right,

There is no sense to the values of new Elements D\R and others have been trying (And succeeding),
And it's because the few people in the committee that's in charge of this stuff don't care enough
Or find it against their own agenda, Whatever that may be
So it's time for them to care

 

[Tolstoj]

Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system that won't keep pace
2-time world champs want technical difficulty to factor more in scoring
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...duhamel-eric-radford-judging-system-1.3947515



:cool14::cool14:

Interesting, i remember similar complaints from Irina Slutskaya and i do agree with them for the most part.

Although i would say judges and fans always look at the components in the wrong way: performance and interpretation are just 2 out of 5 elements of the second mark, so if you are a performer, you like to engage the audience it should not be guaranteed an high second mark.

With Duhamel and Radford the situation is a little different though, because when you compare them to S/K, or some chinese pairs, the quality of skating is way superior. That should be noted on the scores in my opinion, as much as D/R harder technical elements, and that's mostly what's happening so i don't see the complain here.

 

[nevergonnadance]

Before they acquired finesse, Zhao could throw Shen higher and further, they did a lot of other spectacular athletic feats on the ice, but the skating itself needed work before they were able to stand on the top of the podium. Even in a trick-centric discipline like pairs, the athleticism needs to be organic with the skating. Duhamel Radford completely stop skating before their quad throw, particularly Megan, and when it is rotated, she lands it with her rear end two inches from the ice with minimal run out. This landing saves her knees, but that's not a high quality landing. What makes that quad different than a quad done off ice if they are doing very little skating before and after? I believe they would be rewarded more for their tech if their tech had something to do with the quality of their skating.

i beg to disagree on what you are saying about D/R ... I find especially strange that you write that they are not musical at all when Eric's moves live the music perfectly and he leads and partners Meagan so well.

They're judged as a team. That means they're judged according to the ability of the weakest member, Meagan. Although that isn't always the case in practice; that's how it's supposed to be scored.

Anyway, IMO we are talking about skating versus athleticism here, not skating versus "performance." The problem with D/R's tech is the tricks are not showcasing superior skating. The skating suffers when they do the trick, and suffers markedly, or stops completely. Until that is addressed, they're not going to be rewarded much more than they are now.

That said, I think their speed - the amount of ice they cover when they're skating - is underestimated.

 

[TGee]

I see what you mean but I don't think that your point of view is level-headed. You have to consider pairs skating as a whole, not only the top pairs. Meagan was/is a very good singles skater and we all know that she is a very good jumper. And we know that many girls who are not very good jumpers switch to pairs. That's also why their throws aren't very big, Meagan is doing most of the work and that makes it also safer for her. Doing those quads is dangerous business and a rule change like Meagan and Eric want it would help the strong ladies jumpers immensely and we would very likely have more ladies injured. That would also mean that you just can't chose weak female jumpers for pairs skating any longer, it would change the sport in the long term. The question is - do we want that, is this where the sport wants to go? My opinion is that this wouldn't help the sport at all, we would have a lesser number of pairs in the long term.
And I want to add that Meagan and Eric already have a huge advantage because of their side by side jumps and it's well deserved. They have won two WC's with it. But pairs skating isn't only about jumps (Meagan and Eric's spins are great I want to add).

Girls who aren't good jumpers switch to pairs....? Elements are too dangerous? Uhm, definitely D/R come from country with differently expectations...pairs is harder, not easier...

Now, I understand why folks outside Canada are surprized to see our top junior pairs girls compete at nationals in singles....and place well. Pairs coaches keep their skaters training in singles at a high level as long as possible...Gauthier and Marcotte reportedly have their senior pairs train singles one day a week. S/B on the other hand train at the Montreal International Ice Dance Academy on Fridays.

In Juniors, Hannah Dawson's partner was injured, so she just competed in singles at nationals...placing 8th. Evelyn Walsh competed in both...was 8th after the SP, then did both freeskates in the same afternoon [top of the podium in pairs, 12th in singles overall]

[And we have junior and novice men who do both ice dance and singles....at least a few of whom later switch to pairs.]

For those who think the tech is too high, I would strongly suggest looking at the replay of the Canadian Junior pairs at nationals. It's an eye opener in terms of what technical elements can be safely taught from a younger age.... While most of the teams have gaps at that point in development, there are a number of them with high difficulty elements...
-Boys-Eddy siblings 3Tw3
- Matte/Ferland, Walsh/Michaud Th3Lz
- level 4 lift axel lassos by several pairs

Videos and results on Nationals threads.. Junior Pairs SP, Junior Pairs FS

 

[bobbob]

Back to the topic in question: I personally understand their argument, but I find it distasteful that they are petitioning to change the system because I also understand that many people do not agree that quads should be worth as much for the sake of maintaining emphasis on execution and skating skill.
Different pairs have different strengths, and you can't just say you want more points for something you are strong at AND petition to judges to change the scoring system simply to fit your strengths. Especially in light of their recent lower scores... Imagine if say Carolina Kostner, or even Patrick Chan, was complaining that PCS should be worth more... You have to work with the system at hand that everyone agrees to.

And yes, Meagan isn't really thrown in her throws, she rotates by herself. That's why the Chinese ladies can do larger throws without being able to do SBS--they are actually thrown in the air. Not a bad thing necessarily, but explains why they can do so many rotations despite such poor throwing technique.

 

[withwings]

Hmmm... then Ice Dance is not a sport; it is a dance.

 

[whatif]

D/R need to switch to singles. Because whatever they are doing now has very little to do with pairs skating or what is considered to be difficulty in pairs skating.

 

[chuckm]

What Megan and Eric want is a points system that guarantees them a win each and every time because they have the hardest technical content. And they'd like to have it now BEFORE the Olympics.

 

[solani]

Girls who aren't good jumpers switch to pairs....? Elements are too dangerous? Uhm, definitely D/R come from country with differently expectations...pairs is harder, not easier...

Girls who aren't good enough jumpers to become top singles skaters in their own countries, that's what I meant. Pairs is hard, I'm very aware of that and the most dangerous discipline (I'm not discussing that fact), that's why not many female skaters are eager to do it and also why many parents don't want it for their girls. Many forget about how dangerous it is for the man as well.
Meagan and Eric want that difficult elements (and more difficult means more dangerousin pairs skating) should be rewarded more, the result would be that many teams would risk more, would have to risk more in order to be competitive. I just think that this would be the wrong path for pairs skating in the long term.

 

[silverfoxes]

Well, just saying, artistic aspects are as hard as technical ones (else, everybody would be getting 100 pcs, right?)

While i do support technical above artistic, imho pairs is an exception: due to specifics of the discipline, the hardest elements are also very dangerous - more dangerous that ones in singles. This is why i think scoring should remain as it is - honestly, if pairs will start having as many falls from twists and throws and the singles fall from their regular jumps, i´ll be among first to sign a petition to forbid those things from competition at all.
I guess you guys all remember a couple of horrid falls we had witnessed this season, right?

Yes, I think the alarming number of serious injuries in pairs is a far more pressing concern than D/R not getting the points they think they deserve. And if more weight is given to those difficult elements, then there will only be more injuries. I don't want to keep watching pairs if the medals are just going to go to the last teams standing.

 

[noskates]

I understand what she's trying to say but if they aren't getting rewarded for those moves (supposedly) than why risk life and limb to continue doing them? I have always maintained (after watching figure skating for more years than I care to admit) that there should be a balance between artistry and athleticism. That balance is out of balance now with the men and D&R want it out of balance for pairs. How many more injuries and career-ending injuries must there be before the IFS and all its country members start taking a look at the danger and the injuries and putting some guidelines around it. Oh I know there are people out there that want the skaters to keep pushing the edge higher and higher but you also have to look at the ramifications of that effort. I would rather skaters perfect what they do than try stuff just to get points. Actually the point system is what's propelling this. Ick.