Duhamel, Radford frustrated by system

[TGee]

Agreed that D/R are not in any trouble, as they still are one of the favorites. Just like But I do believe that all these teams have demonstrated they great scoring potential , so if someone makes mistakes in their short program, then they will definitely find themselves in trouble.
Regarding T/M, although their music is dated, the program is well constructed and will continue to score internationally well when successfully executed. Why would the judging at worlds any be different than at the GPF or Europeans? I mean, it's not like the judging panel at worlds will all be under 40 years old with a taste for contemporary music, are they?

Well, back to the points made by D/R, and the conversation around what needs to be rewarded to save pairs from dreariness....

I find it beyond sad that one of the few sports where women and men team together to do something extremely challenging athletically and even dangerous (what else is there mixed bobsled teams?), is at risk of being ossified by a norm that defines as 'artistry' lyrical programs set to drippy 'soft hits' which I only otherwise hear in dentists offices.

I love Ilyushechkina / Moscovitch, and I think they are really improving as a pair, but it says too much that is not good about current pairs norms that their PCS suddenly went up, and people started to say nice things about their "artistry" when the chose Josh Grabin for their FS this year. ( OK the tango choreographed by M-F Dubrueil is a good part of it too....but it's a concern..)

Around the time of Sochi, I noted that ISU and commentators were perhaps going overboard in emphasizing that pairs is the "extreme" discipline of FS in order to make it more appealing to a younger audience. Now, as I see it, we either have a pendulum swing the other way to

- make pairs less "scary", the risk less evident

- accommodate "it's a male-female team so artistic expression has to be around a romantic, syrupy narrative" school of thought

- have female pairs skaters convince us that they are "fragile and feminine" because the reality that they are actually some of the bravest, fiercest most highly trained athletes in any sport makes some of the older audience uncomfortable....

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

After this stunning competition in Ostrau yesterday D/R are even more in trouble than before.

After a disappointing start pair skating is going to be a real hit at worlds

Well, let's see how they do at 4CC. My guess is that they'll continue with their usual (i.e. no 3A) difficulty in the SP, and aim to be clean more than focus on big tricks.

That was a brilliant Euros competition for them, but ain't over till it's over.

After all, many people thought they wouldn't even make the podium going into Worlds.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Around the time of Sochi, I noted that ISU and commentators were perhaps going overboard in emphasizing that pairs is the "extreme" discipline of FS in order to make it more appealing to a younger audience. Now, as I see it, we either have a pendulum swing the other way to

- make pairs less "scary", the risk less evident

- accommodate "it's a male-female team so artistic expression has to be around a romantic, syrupy narrative" school of thought

- have female pairs skaters convince us that they are "fragile and feminine" because the reality that they are actually some of the bravest, fiercest most highly trained athletes in any sport makes some of the older audience uncomfortable....

Nail on the head. The ISU isn't doing the sport any favours by making harder difficulty not rewarded enough -- sure, let's "protect the sanctity of pairs skating" -- i.e. present a male/female couple, do throws as easy as a 3S (or 2A in some cases) and hard as a 3L, SBS jumps that have been around for decades, and then we can have a wash, rinse and repeat of the past years of pairs skating, call it a day. And no, THAT doesn't kill the sport.

There's a reason why the men are being talked about more - yeah, it's becoming a jump fest, but that's exciting because competitive figure skating is fundamentally a sport about athletic prowess, enhanced by artistic ability.

 

[TGee]

Nail on the head. The ISU isn't doing the sport any favours by making harder difficulty not rewarded enough -- sure, let's "protect the sanctity of pairs skating" -- i.e. present a male/female couple, do throws as easy as a 3S (or 2A in some cases) and hard as a 3L, SBS jumps that have been around for decades, and then we can have a wash, rinse and repeat of the past years of pairs skating, call it a day. And no, THAT doesn't kill the sport.

There's a reason why the men are being talked about more - yeah, it's becoming a jump fest, but that's exciting because competitive figure skating is fundamentally a sport about athletic prowess, enhanced by artistic ability.

Mentioned below that Canadian junior pairs, while rough, are doing Th3Lz and 3Tw3s....so what's left for senior pairs? Just polish?:yawn:

------------

Here's the Boys-Eddy siblings hard rocking short program. The nationals SP is blocked but here's an early season fancam from Detroit. Olivia recently turned 13, so they won't compete in ISU juniors until next season. They were 3rd at nationals, and two of the top pairs were out with injury.... but they give a feel for a totally different direction for pairs....

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4lgwzz


and last season's 3Tw3
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kY6kCJqyPvA

 

[Violet Bliss]

Agreed that D/R are not in any trouble, as they still are one of the favorites. Just like But I do believe that all these teams have demonstrated they great scoring potential , so if someone makes mistakes in their short program, then they will definitely find themselves in trouble.

Agree. They all have to bring it on both days.

Among the top contenders, D/R have the BV over S/M who go for performance with easier content but D/R may get nice GOE as well. S/H have both high BV and performance going for them but there are questions as to how ready they are with their programs because of their short season due to Sui's surgery.

No team is assured of the victory, just as D/R had to earn their title the previous two years.

 

[JustMe]

Agree. They all have to bring it on both days.

Among the top contenders, D/R have the BV over S/M who go for performance with easier content but D/R may get nice GOE as well. S/H have both high BV and performance going for them but there are questions as to how ready they are with their programs because of their short season due to Sui's surgery.

No team is assured of the victory, just as D/R had to earn their title the previous two years.

Hear, hear! :agree:
I have a feeling this will be one of the most exciting World pairs championship in a while!

 

[bobbob]

i don't quite agree with that that D/R are in trouble. Did you see them skate at Nationals? They had a clean SP for 80 points and no,... they don't get PCS inflation at Nationals unlike the series of 10.00 S/M got at Euros...

Their LP had a fall on the 4S... fair enough... Meagan touched down her free foot on the huge 3Lz throw... two mistakes... if there's no fall, they win easily I think.

Looking at the scores, they racked up over 150 in previous WC... why wouldn't they this year??? Are you sure S/M will be able to upgrade their content by worlds?
Are you sure the Europeans will retain the judges favour when Chinese and North American teams also show up?

I agree the top 3 skated well yesterday, IMHO, the French were the top LP pair... but to say that it now makes D/R in trouble is going a bit far...especially considering they are recovering well from their disastrous GPF....

People are willing to forget S/M for Massot's really awkward skating, and this after just their second season, while they are still pounding on Meagan for skating skills that she has been improving since 2011... I agree that in 2011... D/R were messy... but every year, they improve... will Meagan ever be Aliona? No... Few can reach that level anyways... but Eric is gorgeous and probably the best out there.... but that doesn't count??? Why????

Their PCS at Nationals was still higher than what they would have gotten internationally...they haven't broken 35/70 in PCS this year (understandably) while S/M have never gotten below 35/70. Their nats free skate would probably scored somewhere around 69 for PCS internationally.

If they are clean, they can still score in the range of 150...although Euros was scored pretty highly, S/M got 149 with a double and triple throw (not triple and quad), as well as a pop in a second part of a SBS sequence. So if S/M skate cleanly, they would easily score 155...maybe even 160. Their problem is, they haven't shown the ability to do so...though D/R haven't either. I can't predict who will make more mistakes, but even if S/M make more mistakes (which to be fair they are more prone to doing), they will still come out on top with a ~5 pt PCS buffer and better non jump elements. S/H too, their PCS will for sure be higher than D/R...

Also, I do agree that Radford is a better skater than Massot, but I the overall pairing S/M skate much better. It's not an individual sport.

 

[4everchan]

DR skated clean at worlds last year for the lp... and just had a clean sp at nationals...

 

[bobbob]

Anyways, Pairs is going to be so exciting at Worlds--it's honestly the discipline I've been looking forward to the most because it's the only time when all of these top Pairs get to compete against each other, compared to the ladies or dance who are competing against the same skaters seemingly over and over.

The top 4 at EC (I do believe J/C will be getting a big PCS boost after this) plus S/H, Y/J, and D/R all have a chance at the podium...I still do think S/M are the judge's 'favorite' pair, and they will win if their programs are as technically strong as everyone else...though they are so inconsistent that that is a tall order. It is also entirely possible, even likely, that S/H totally blow us away at FCC and they become heavy favorites...

So for D/R to win, they have to skate cleanly and hope everyone else screws up. Pretty much the same scenario as last year.

 

[4everchan]

So for D/R to win, they have to skate cleanly and hope everyone else screws up. Pretty much the same scenario as last year.

wow... so funny how people perceive things differently...

I don't think D/R only win when everyone else screws up... it's more like other teams hope that they will miss their big tricks so that they can win on PCS oh well...

 

[skylark]

Also, I do agree that Radford is a better skater than Massot, but I the overall pairing S/M skate much better. It's not an individual sport.

Agree. Ryan Bradley and Andrea were saying during the NBCSN broadcast that they thought Aliona looks happier in the partnership with Bruno; that she conveyed intensity, mainly, when skating with Robin. I agree with that too, although I loved Robin's skating and his qualities as her partner.

I'm disappointed that Meagan and Eric would come out complaining in this article about artistry getting too much emphasis in pairs skating.

 

[4everchan]

I'm disappointed that Meagan and Eric would come out complaining in this article about artistry getting too much emphasis in pairs skating.

they didn't say that at all..

 

[skylark]

they didn't say that at all..

Well, I read the article a couple of days ago, and I thought one of them did say that. It was quite far into the article. However, I didn't re-read it today, and unfortunately it's nearly 4 AM now and my eyes won't cooperate, so I'll have to wait till tomorrow after some sleep to clear it up for myself and others. If I read or recalled it incorrectly, my apologies.

 

[skylark]

Okay, I caught some zzzzz's and can read stuff without double vision now. The quote from Eric (see below) puts his remarks about technique vs. artistry in the context of a trend, puts it in the future subjunctive. But in my opinion, his words are addressing his concerns about present-day pairs skating and judging, not just the future. He allies himself with people who think figure skating belongs in the "sport category rather than an art." That surprised and disappointed me, coming from Eric.

In my opinion, implying that figure skating has to be either one or the other, sport or art, is incomplete. It's both, and that's what makes it a performance sport. Beauty, artistry, and athleticism all wrapped up in one glorious package. Pitting one aspect against the other is a disservice to the sport. IMHO. I don't see this issue as anyone saying "Oh no, the artistry has to be the most important."

I see it more as an ongoing conversation among people who love this sport, who are constantly trying to come to a consensus that doesn't ignore or minimize the diverse opinions of others who are equally passionate about figure skating.


"What is the essence of sport? If you can run faster that someone else in the 100-metre dash, you win because you ran faster than them," Radford said. "And that is the essence of figure skating that keeps it in the sport category rather than an art.

"I believe there are specific people in the skating world and the [International Skating Union] who are afraid of a runaway effect — of a skater coming along that can do so much technically that they're going to beat the most artistic. But if you eliminate that aspect of it and you say 'Oh no, the artistry has to be the most important,' I would be the first person to say that you should take figure skating out of the Olympics. Because it's not a real sport if you take that away."

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/w...duhamel-eric-radford-judging-system-1.3947515

they didn't say that at all..

 

[4everchan]

figure skating is a sport first and foremost... the package, as people call costume and music, is not art... it's just an accessory to allow skaters to perform their tricks... most of them doing the same tricks year after year...

would you go watch a movie if you knew that 90% of the time it starts with the same idea ( a dramatic opening into a triple twist, then most likely going to SBS jumps)... The reality is that yes, sport makes us live emotions... but i watched tennis last night and the williams sisters gave me emotions too...are they artists??? if anything, Venus, who creates her own outfits is more of an artist as many of the skaters we see...

Now, that's my opinion.... let's get back to Eric

What he is saying is that his sport should be judged as a sport. And actually, coming from him, a musician, he understands the difference between sport and art better than anyone else.

So, he wishes the COP to reflect athletic qualities and judge them for what they are : incredible difficult elements deserve more reward.

Why? Otherwise, there is no incentive in upgrading the difficulty, and all same pairs will perform the same elements.... that actually was the case for years...

What happens if all the pairs perform the same elements???? The sport is judged based on the packaging of the elements, which is then subjective... the artistic "impression" I like that term because it is not ART but an impression of art....

If figure skating were to become judged mostly based on artistic impression, it would signify the death of the sport as it would be removed from the Olympics.. A sport who is not part of the Olympics loses its funding....

Eric is not blind here. He knows what he is talking about. Look at ice dance : they had to modify it drastically as there were talks about nixing it from the Olympics already. An athlete should be compared to his competitors if they go faster, higher, have more rotations, perform more difficult elements... not if their packaging is cooler or leads to more emotions than the others...
For instance, while I was super curious about seeing the new SBS as Meagan and Eric are going back several years ago reinstating the 3S and 3Lz combos (they did that at their beginnings) some people were commenting on how Eric's new costume is so much better....

Are we at a fashion show or a sporting event? It's very important the sport keeps evolving, otherwise, all teams are leveled and maxed out due to the lack of reward for harder elements and are simply judged on their "artistic impression" which in figure skating is a very integral part of judging already, but should not gain more importance versus the athletic side of it.

So that's what I understand from his words. I agree with this, especially if we want to keep figure skating alive. When I need art, I go to the museum, I listen to the symphony, I go to the ballet...but very rarely has a figure skating performance fulfilled my need for art... I consume a lot of art... and a lot of sport too... To me, figure skating is a sport.... and should remain a sport.

 

[andromache]

figure skating is a sport first and foremost... the package, as people call costume and music, is not art... it's just an accessory to allow skaters to perform their tricks... most of them doing the same tricks year after year...

Now, that's my opinion.... let's get back to Eric

What he is saying is that his sport should be judged as a sport. And actually, coming from him, a musician, he understands the difference between sport and art better than anyone else.

So, he wishes the COP to reflect athletic qualities and judge them for what they are : incredible difficult elements deserve more reward.

Why? Otherwise, there is no incentive in upgrading the difficulty, and all same pairs will perform the same elements.... that actually was the case for years...

What happens if all the pairs perform the same elements???? The sport is judged based on the packaging of the elements, which is then subjective... the artistic "impression" I like that term because it is not ART but an impression of art....

If figure skating were to become judged mostly based on artistic impression, it would signify the death of the sport as it would be removed from the Olympics.. A sport who is not part of the Olympics loses its funding....

Are we at a fashion show or a sporting event? It's very important the sport keeps evolving, otherwise, all teams are leveled and maxed out due to the lack of reward for harder elements and are simply judged on their "artistic impression" which in figure skating is a very integral part of judging already, but should not gain more importance versus the athletic side of it.

So that's what I understand from his words. I agree with this, especially if we want to keep figure skating alive. When I need art, I go to the museum, I listen to the symphony, I go to the ballet...but very rarely has a figure skating performance fulfilled my need for art... I consume a lot of art... and a lot of sport too... To me, figure skating is a sport.... and should remain a sport.

What is more physically difficult? Doing a labored 3Lz in your practice clothes with no music playing or doing an effortless-looking 3Lz perfectly on time with the music and looking pretty while you do it? What shows more mastery of the sport: the skating of Patrick Chan into and out of a 4T or the skating of Maxim Kovtun into and out of a 4T?

Your reduction of artistry/PCS to packaging and costume seems a little odd for such a big fan of Patrick Chan .

Other than quad throws needing to be worth more and permitting quad elements in the SP, I think pairs is perfect where it's at right now, as the Euros competition showed. Gorgeous high twists from S/M and T/M that could be turned into quads in the future, quad throw from J/C, no SBS 2As from anyone. The throws from S/M and T/M were on the easier side, but we know Aliona is training a 3ATh. Plus, we know that teams like D/R, American S/K, and the Chinese will likely all be bringing quad elements around to Worlds.

Progress is happening. It might not be happening fast, but teams wanting to compete elements they are capable of landing is important too. Developing consistency is good.

"Sport" and "art" do not have to be pitted against one another.

 

[4everchan]

What is more physically difficult? Doing a labored 3Lz in your practice clothes with no music playing or doing an effortless-looking 3Lz perfectly on time with the music and looking pretty while you do it? What shows more mastery of the sport: the skating of Patrick Chan into and out of a 4T or the skating of Maxim Kovtun into and out of a 4T?

Your reduction of artistry/PCS to packaging and costume seems a little odd for such a big fan of Patrick Chan .

Other than quad throws needing to be worth more and permitting quad elements in the SP, I think pairs is perfect where it's at right now, as the Euros competition showed. Gorgeous high twists from S/M and T/M that could be turned into quads in the future, quad throw from J/C, no SBS 2As from anyone. The throws from S/M and T/M were on the easier side, but we know Aliona is training a 3ATh. Plus, we know that teams like D/R, American S/K, and the Chinese will likely all be bringing quad elements around to Worlds.

Progress is happening. It might not be happening fast, but teams wanting to compete elements they are capable of landing is important too. Developing consistency is good.

"Sport" and "art" do not have to be pitted against one another.

I think that great edges and blade control is sport as well... not art... like a great volley in tennis which involves extreme hand control and precision.

that's skill... not art.

no need to remind me how great of an athlete Patrick Chan is for being able to weave hard elements into programs that are filled with content

What Patrick the athlete does though, is special... it results in ART Marina said it... I understood it when I saw him live. Nobody else skates like he does. The result is mind blowing. But that's exceptional... and shouldn't be how the sport is judged in my opinion. Patrick is still majorly judged on whether or not he lands his quads... when he does, the marks follow... when he doesn't he can be beaten by quadsters... we have seen it already since his return...

 

[whatif]

With V/M return, D/M now no longer Canada's only hope for Olympic Gold in 2018. Looks like they got the message from their fed and now doing their own PR. That's the only explanation I have for this thread existence.

 

[bobbob]

figure skating is a sport first and foremost... the package, as people call costume and music, is not art... it's just an accessory to allow skaters to perform their tricks... most of them doing the same tricks year after year...

would you go watch a movie if you knew that 90% of the time it starts with the same idea ( a dramatic opening into a triple twist, then most likely going to SBS jumps)... The reality is that yes, sport makes us live emotions... but i watched tennis last night and the williams sisters gave me emotions too...are they artists??? if anything, Venus, who creates her own outfits is more of an artist as many of the skaters we see...

Now, that's my opinion.... let's get back to Eric

What he is saying is that his sport should be judged as a sport. And actually, coming from him, a musician, he understands the difference between sport and art better than anyone else.

So, he wishes the COP to reflect athletic qualities and judge them for what they are : incredible difficult elements deserve more reward.

Why? Otherwise, there is no incentive in upgrading the difficulty, and all same pairs will perform the same elements.... that actually was the case for years...

What happens if all the pairs perform the same elements???? The sport is judged based on the packaging of the elements, which is then subjective... the artistic "impression" I like that term because it is not ART but an impression of art....

If figure skating were to become judged mostly based on artistic impression, it would signify the death of the sport as it would be removed from the Olympics.. A sport who is not part of the Olympics loses its funding....

Eric is not blind here. He knows what he is talking about. Look at ice dance : they had to modify it drastically as there were talks about nixing it from the Olympics already. An athlete should be compared to his competitors if they go faster, higher, have more rotations, perform more difficult elements... not if their packaging is cooler or leads to more emotions than the others...
For instance, while I was super curious about seeing the new SBS as Meagan and Eric are going back several years ago reinstating the 3S and 3Lz combos (they did that at their beginnings) some people were commenting on how Eric's new costume is so much better....

Are we at a fashion show or a sporting event? It's very important the sport keeps evolving, otherwise, all teams are leveled and maxed out due to the lack of reward for harder elements and are simply judged on their "artistic impression" which in figure skating is a very integral part of judging already, but should not gain more importance versus the athletic side of it.

So that's what I understand from his words. I agree with this, especially if we want to keep figure skating alive. When I need art, I go to the museum, I listen to the symphony, I go to the ballet...but very rarely has a figure skating performance fulfilled my need for art... I consume a lot of art... and a lot of sport too... To me, figure skating is a sport.... and should remain a sport.

Figure skating is about the balance between art and physical athleticism. It's an Olympic sport because it combines physical ability in doing these "tricks" and physical ability in skating skills, moving between elements (transitions), executing movements (Performance/execution), being able to interpret and move physically based on the music (interpretation), etc. Program components (or artistic impression as you put it) is as much physical ability as technical elements...so being judged on that is not a "death" in any sense because there is just as much physical difficulty that goes into that. Now I agree things like music selection, costume, should not affect scores but certainly skating skills, transitions, execution/performance, etc. should play a role, but the question is simply deciding between which aspect of the sport should be grown--the "tricks" as you mention or the basic skating skills as reflected in components, not a question of life or death of the sport...

Anyways it just seems convenient that they bring it up because they happen to lack "artistic impression" by any sense of the word--artistic impression which is created through strong skating skills, movement across the ice, etc.

 

[4everchan]

^^ i think you should reread the article and my posts you don't really understand what I am saying and reinterpreting it into something else.

To me, skating skills and transitions are skills =sport. Execution is precision and ability to sustain a 4 minute program with quality elements =endurance/quality = sport. Musical interpretation, honestly, as a musician, sometimes I do find it funny that skaters get 10s on this when their skating has very little to do with what the music is but that, is the only component really which belongs entirely to "artistic IMPRESSION" and again I use impression because it is not art but resembles it. I find it funny how synchro swimming doesn't get the label as "art" as much yet has pretty much the same characteristics as figure skating... another sport that almost got nixed from the Ogames...