Ilia Malinin and sensitivity training

[ElSoteroLoco]

Fair enough. And I will say I don't agree what Ilia said on that IG live. I wasn't watching it myself (I don't really go on my phone a bunch on the weekends, I'm on my laptop more since I'm at home and not at work). I saw what he said in words. Was it stupid to say? Yes. I do not defend him saying that stuff. I don't believe in my opinion that it's unforgivable. He apologized. And I've seen comments on Twitter and Instagram for other stuff (Not related to skaters), they can be pretty vicious. Like really horrible comments that wish the worst and kick people further. So I don't exactly blame them for turning stuff off until things cool over a bit. They seem to be the worst for the worst kind of comments (That's not 4chan or Reddit). As long as Ilia grows from it and is more careful about what he says, it'll be fine. I was not socially mature at 18-19 myself. I didn't say things he said, but I certainly have said stuff or have done stuff that I look back and I want to curl into a ball and hide because I cringe so much at it. I'm glad I never had the social media presence he has now, or else it would have been yikes. I personally didn't find the need for Brennan to make an article about it.

Brennan did NOT need to make an article about it but she is the person who was all over the Tonya/Nancy spectacle!. So I’m not surprised

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

sensitivity training! lol . I think there should be some toughen up training

 

[TallyT]

So, the question now is what could he do? What's the fix?

Simply to accept that it's done, can't be undone, is going to be there forever, and he's lost some fannish support which probably can't be won back. But after all, it's only blown up again on social media in the last few days because what he said about Yuzu was belied - like I said, his choice of targets was as dumb as the words themselves.

And so what???!!! He is still learning how to do interviews! I have not a single problem with ANYTHING he said. And im GAY! I’m a man and was raised to be a man! Not cry over any little thing people say!

That you have no problems is totally irrelevant to those who do. And to 'not cry over any little thing people say' could be said to apply to both sides.

 

[Minz]

Brennan did NOT need to make an article about it but she is the person who was all over the Tonya/Nancy spectacle!. So I’m not surprised

Everyone was all over the Tonya/Nancy spectacle. I wasn’t even alive at the time, but my parents, who are not figure skating fans, told me it was all over the place.

 

[mrrice]

Maybe I'm old and I've lost my instinct to look for a problem. To me, this is no different than me being asked "Do you have a special lady in your life?" I believe I was asked that question in every interview I did on one of our tours. Well, being gay, I didn't have a special lady so I just said, "No, the tour takes up all of my time." I had friends who freaked out at that question......."Why do they assume you're straight??" I haven't seen this interview so, I can't comment directly. It's not like he said "Ewe, don't ask me that!" Right.

 

[4everchan]

Maybe I'm old and I've lost my instinct to look for a problem. To me, this is no different than me being asked "Do you have a special lady in your life?" I believe I was asked that question in every interview I did on one of our tours. Well, being gay, I didn't have a special lady so I just said, "No, the tour takes up all of my time." I had friends who freaked out at that question......."Why do they assume you're straight??" I haven't seen this interview so, I can't comment directly. It's not like he said "Ewe, don't ask me that!" Right.

it's not about being gay so much as about "gays get better PCS" sort of banter he was having... That's the problem I have with it. What about recognizing that those getting better PCS than he does have done work for that, no matter of their orientation. ( I think you should have a look at what he said... you may be surprised)

 

[TontoK]

Simply to accept that it's done, can't be undone, is going to be there forever, and he's lost some fannish support which probably can't be won back.

That's my point. Nothing he does now is going to make any difference at all. People will get over it or they won't. He just has to accept that he created the mess (or at least acknowledge to himself that he opened the door for a mess to happen), learn from this bad experience, and move on.

There's no need for public self-flagellation to appease those who won't get past it, nor is there any need to open his SM comment section in order to receive vitriol from the same people. It's wasted energy.

 

[mrrice]

it's not about being gay so much as about "gays get better PCS" sort of banter he was having... That's the problem I have with it. What about recognizing that those getting better PCS than he does have done work for that, no matter of their orientation. ( I think you should have a look at what he said... you may be surprised)

Well, if that's the Crux of the interview, I'd point him to Patrick Chan's 2011 Worlds Programs. I believe Patrick is Straight and Married with a Child. It's time for his coaches to sit him down and have him deal with reality. It's you, Ilia. Whether you're straight or gay, is not a factor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obyEK6zaIpk

 

[TallyT]

That's my point. Nothing he does now is going to make any difference at all. People will get over it or they won't. He just has to accept that he created the mess (or at least acknowledge to himself that he opened the door for a mess to happen), learn from this bad experience, and move on.

There's no need for public self-flagellation to appease those who won't get past it, nor is there any need to open his SM comment section in order to receive vitriol from the same people. It's wasted energy.

There are sports stars who are unpopular with the public, for a number of reasons, even when they win. They survive. They may not make the same money from sponsorship/personal appearances/etc as those the public like, but they have careers.

And for all the pointing him at Patrick etc, he may simply not be able to develop far artistically so aiming at the stars is... maybe counter-productive.

 

[mrrice]

Brennan did NOT need to make an article about it but she is the person who was all over the Tonya/Nancy spectacle!. So I’m not surprised

Right....Anything to get her name in a headline.

 

[el henry]

No one is crying, or sobbing, or picking on poor little Ilia. Nor is Ilia a monster.

1. Ilia said something incredibly stupid. He basically said that Jason and Kévin scored higher in PCS because they are openly gay. Say what????

2. We all say stupid things, if we are smart, we apologize and move on. Ilia's apology was "it was a joke, I'm sorry you were hurt". Let's use gendered terms: not the apology of a "stand up guy".

3. Do I think sensitivity training has a chance to work with an 18 year old if he is willing to learn, as opposed to jaded old employees? (not that I was ever jaded or old ) Sure. Why not try?

4. Do I think Ilia should be hounded the rest of his life? Of course not. I think he has a chance to learn, I think he is smart and he will.

And to address the substance, in my over 50 years watching figure skating, I have seen one men's skater after another (including some I adored, like Christopher Bowman) hyped, hyped, hyped just because they ere straight. Cause, y'know, more people would care about figure skating if the men were just manly men skating manly programs that would appeal to manly men. *No one* is disfavoring Ilia because he is straight.

Everyone was all over the Tonya/Nancy spectacle. I wasn’t even alive at the time, but my parents, who are not figure skating fans, told me it was all over the place.

I was alive then. Can confirm.

 

[rabidline]

I think Ilia just has to live with it and do the work on his own, behind the scenes. Even if he closed his comment section, there can be fans who come to the Meet & Greet at SOI and see Ilia on one table with Jason and be reminded of what he joked about, and that would be pretty reasonable. There can also be fans who can accept he's flawed as a person and still support him and hope he can improve. It would only benefit Ilia himself as a person if he managed to grow and unlearn the bias he had that led him to make that kind of joke, but no fans will ever know about that in detail because we just don't know him personally. If Ilia continues to achieve things and improve his skating, he'll get invited to shows. The audience can know about his personal life or they don't care enough to find out. And then once he stops competing, as long as he has connections, he'll still get invited to shows, if he physically can skate and wants to skate. He is still someone who made history, there are probably people who are interested in that, regardless of what he's like personally. I personally won't go out of my way to watch Ilia skate as he is now, but that's been the case even before he made the tasteless joke.

As an example, there are a lot of fans who didn't know Nathan has apologized for what he said in the past podcast interview about FS being a homosexually-dominated sport and dislike him because of that lack of knowledge (specifically saying they dislike him because he never apologized). That didn't stop Nathan from winning the Olympic Gold Medal, having Elton John congratulate him in his concert, and multiple appearances across daytime talk shows and magazines after his win. He still books his shows in Japan and in the US and probably more if he wants to. Will we ever know for sure that he has changed his mind and unlearned his bias? No. Have some fans stopped calling him a homophobe? Also no. But his achievements are his achievements, and his skating is his skating. It will be the same for Ilia.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I think Ilia just has to live with it and do the work on his own, behind the scenes. Even if he closed his comment section, there can be fans who come to the Meet & Greet at SOI and see Ilia on one table with Jason and be reminded of what he joked about, and that would be pretty reasonable. There can also be fans who can accept he's flawed as a person and still support him and hope he can improve. It would only benefit Ilia himself as a person if he managed to grow and unlearn the bias he had that led him to make that kind of joke, but no fans will ever know about that in detail because we just don't know him personally. If Ilia continues to achieve things and improve his skating, he'll get invited to shows. The audience can know about his personal life or they don't care enough to find out. And then once he stops competing, as long as he has connections, he'll still get invited to shows, if he physically can skate and wants to skate. He is still someone who made history, there are probably people who are interested in that, regardless of what he's like personally. I personally won't go out of my way to watch Ilia skate as he is now, but that's been the case even before he made the tasteless joke.

As an example, there are a lot of fans who didn't know Nathan has apologized for what he said in the past about FS being a homosexually-dominated sport and dislike him because of that lack of knowledge (specifically saying they dislike him because he never apologized). That didn't stop Nathan from winning the Olympic Gold Medal, having Elton John congratulate him in his concert, and multiple appearances across daytime talk shows and magazines after his win. He still books his shows in Japan and in the US and probably more if he wants to. Will we ever know for sure that he has changed his mind and unlearned his bias? No. Have some fans stopped calling him a homophobe? Also no. But his achievements are his achievements, and his skating is his skating. It will be the same for Ilia.

And as someone who is going to a SOI show in less than 3 weeks to Ilia and Jason skate, who are my two favorite US men's skaters, I'm very excited to meet both of them (Jason for the 2nd time) at the M&G afterwards. June 2nd can't come fast enough. Leaving early from work with my friends, eating pasta, and then watching skating in person for the 1st time in over 5 years....cannot wait!

Alright back to the topic.

 

[Mathman]

Echoing Rabidlines mention of Nathan Chen above, my recollection is that Nathan once said something something to the effect that it was sort of annoying that everyone assumed he was gay because he was in the "artistic" sport of figure skating.

For perspective, in 1978 Dick Button was attcked in Central Park by a gang of teenagers from the Uppper East Side with baseball bats because they thought he was gay (I don't know whether Button is gay or not). Button suffered permanent injuries. The thugs were sentenced to 5 to 15 years in prison. The main culprit had been arrested 19 times previously for similar crimes, for which he was sent to jail for a few days once and let go 18 times. I just can't get too exercised over whether someone thinks gay figure skaters are more PCSs-worthy than straight ones.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Echoing Rabidlines mention of Nathan Chen above, my recollection is that Nathan once said something something to the effect that it was sort of annoying that everyone assumed he was gay because he was in the "artistic" sport of figure skating.

For perspective, in 1978 Dick Button was attcked in Central Park by a gang of teenagers from the Uppper East Side with baseball bats because they thought he was gay (I don't know whether Button is gay or not). Button suffered permanent injuries. The thugs were sentenced to 5 to 15 years in prison. The main culprit had been arrested 19 times previously for similar crimes, for which he was sent to jail for a few days once and let go 18 times. I just can't get too exercised over whether someone thinks gay figure skaters are more PCSs-worthy than straight ones.

Dear gosh, thank goodness those hooligans were punished. He could have been killed. No reason for violence. I want to say swear words, but I know it's not allowed in this forum, so I'll respect the rules on that.

 

[gsk8]

But I would hope that - when it was aimed fair and square at people who have been nothing but kind to us - we were well and truly told where to get off.

I'm talking in general terms. Young people have a tendency to have no filter and speak without thinking. Especially in their teens. I'm not condoning anything, just stating fact

.......remembering when Weir called "Alijona and Robin" the team with the "orange" girl

 

[DancingCactus]

Im neither a guy, nor gay, nor a figure skater and I don't presume to be offended on behalf of anyone. However as a human being living in the 21st century, I can only interpret his words in two ways:

1. He genuinely believes being gay earns you favour with the judges and the officials. Which is just unbelievably stupid. Until a few years ago it was an almost taboo topic, remember Johnny Weir getting mocked at the 2010 Olympics? The Russians are still open homophobes and in Asia you still have to stay in the closet until you rot if youre in the public eye. And I think it would be naive to assume that everyone in the European and Northern Ametican feds is super tolerant even if they claim to be inclusive.

2. He thinks being gay automatically makes you more elegant and musical (= more "sissy"). Which is a) a stereotype that should crawl back into the 20th century were it belongs. And b) skating skills and presentation aren't the same anyway so this interpretation falls apart on the logic front. But goes to show how little he thinks of actual skating skills.

Nobody forced him to answer the stupid question and he brought up the PCS thing himself, so I assume it really bothers him?

Anyway, he's always rubbed me the wrong way and the crap he said this time (also about Yuzu) hasn't made me like him any better, but ymmv.

 

[Magill]

Im neither a guy, nor gay, nor a figure skater and I don't presume to be offended on behalf of anyone. However as a human being living in the 21st century, I can only interpret his words in two ways:

1. He genuinely believes being gay earns you favour with the judges and the officials. Which is just unbelievably stupid. Until a few years ago it was an almost taboo topic, remember Johnny Weir getting mocked at the 2010 Olympics? The Russians are still open homophobes and in Asia you still have to stay in the closet until you rot if youre in the public eye. And I think it would be naive to assume that everyone in the European and Northern Ametican feds is super tolerant even if they claim to be inclusive.

2. He thinks being gay automatically makes you more elegant and musical (= more "sissy"). Which is a) a stereotype that should crawl back into the 20th century were it belongs. And b) skating skills and presentation aren't the same anyway so this interpretation falls apart on the logic front. But goes to show how little he thinks of actual skating skills.

Nobody forced him to answer the stupid question and he brought up the PCS thing himself, so I assume it really bothers him?

Anyway, he's always rubbed me the wrong way and the crap he said this time (also about Yuzu) hasn't made me like him any better, but ymmv.

There is also a third option i.e. he was fully aware it was all crap and pack of nonsense but felt (falsely) whatever he said would stay there between him and his fans as it was only an IG live, so he deliberately or semi-deliberately took this occasion to gently disparage his competitors while offering his fans an "easy" and "cocky" explanation why his PCS are so low and he keeps losing despite his 4A which surely gets to him. Hence his later "apology" for the "joke".
This is a "mean" interpretation but it is there as an obvious option, just as possible as everything else, and as for now, unfortunately, nothing he has said or done makes me believe it completely unrealistic.
I guess he never expected himself to be recorded and his comments becoming viral and a talk of the street. So it truly got out of hand and took him completely by surprise.

 

[Weetos]

I think what concerns me most about this whole debacle is the implication that this view 'if you're gay you get special treatment/Ilia's getting lower PCS just because he's not gay' is quite likely not just invented in his own head but is something fostered in his training/family environment.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I'm talking in general terms. Young people have a tendency to have no filter and speak without thinking. Especially in their teens. I'm not condoning anything, just stating fact

.......remembering when Weir called "Alijona and Robin" the team with the "orange" girl

Oh dear lol.