Knierim and Frazier hit with lawsuit for use of song

[Arigato]

I respect the creative effort and the protection of artists' rights. This is just an overreach.

Were I a skater, I would want to know if rights had been secured. But that's me.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The music is horrible---it's the only bad thing about Alexa/Brandon's FS. If I were them, I'd get new music for Worlds. Why give these litigious no-talents any more publicity. Poo on them!

Isn't this lawsuit about K/F's sp, House of the Rising Sun (a cover version)? I wonder whether musicians who perform cover versions of popular songs need permission to create a cover in the first place?

I think this move is definitely opportunistic in that these brothers waited until the Olympics (and worldwide exposure) prior to launching their suit.

I saw Elton John thanking Nathan Chen, rather than suing him. (But of course Elton John is a legendary icon with wealth beyond measure, while these two brothers are unknowns looking for a payout). I wonder about all this re music rights and figure skating -- the ins-and-outs. If a song is in the public domain, then it's possible to use without impunity. It looks like skaters need to add an intellectual property rights attorney to their teams. It certainly is annoying when skaters' music is muted in performance videos.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

This article explains copyright and figure skating:

Do Olympic Figure Skaters Have to License the Music They Skate To?

Nathan Chen won gold against a backdrop of Elton John songs. But who shelled out for the music license?

www.mentalfloss.com

Knierim and Frazier are not responsible for the clearances, and therefore aren't "dumb".

The brothers and their dad are trying to shake down someone, anyone for some extra cash. I hope NBC stands firm rather than pay them off.

Thanks for linking this article. Since figure skating events in the U.S. are chiefly shown on NBC, I suppose this means NBC obtains music rights to cover the entire season of events they broadcast (depending upon which music needs to be licensed, as music in the public domain is free to use.

 

[TT_Fin]

In Finland there is a long list of clubs - also others than just FS - who belongs to a common contract with those associations who take care of musicians get their fee. But Olympics, EC, WC are not included. So I was wondering, if US has the same? I have understood from several previous post that in US NBC does the same than the associations called Gramex and Teosto do in Finland. So maybe everything has been fine until Olympics but the band members think nobody has asked about to using it in Olympics, but according to the linked articles, there is not even need to do so? Always there is a possibility somebody has messed things and the permission is not asked from the right persons and the band has not known about it before. It is difficult to believe that skaters, especially the experienced ones, or their background people don't care nothing about music rights and licenses. I think it should be a thing told to young skaters already in the beginning of the career. Finland FS association has detailed instructions where and when the music can be used.

Yes, During his IG - I checked because I am curious - Elton John was clearly proud his song was used when winning gold in Olympics.

Edit: I checked how does it go, when using non-Finnish music. Those associations I mentioned before, should pass the money further to foreign articles. While I googled this, I found an old article that Gramex has been hit lawsuit because of it has not unaccounted the money to artists outside of Finland. It was quite old article, but it made me think of possibility, could there be something like this? Somebody pulls between? (I don't know if the English expression is the same, I translated word for word how we say it in Finnish). I hope not.

 

[draqq]

After scouring the internet for a bit, it would seem like these two brothers - Robert and Adam Marderosian - have a habit for suing over copyright infringement.

- They sued Warner Bros. for using their theme song in "Lucifer" in other places in 2017 (the court dismissed the suit)
- They sued iTV Studios in Nov 2019
- They sued Extreme Music Limited in June 2020

 

[Moxiejan]

I saw Elton John thanking Nathan Chen, rather than suing him. (But of course Elton John is a legendary icon with wealth beyond measure, while these two brothers are unknowns looking for a payout).

These two situations shouldn’t be compared, since we have no idea whether permission was granted by Elton and/or his music publisher. And the requirement for permission has zero to do with the financial status of the copyright owner.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

And the requirement for permission has zero to do with the financial status of the copyright owner.

Sure, in legal terms 'zero to do.' In ethical and personal motivation terms, etc., music artists who are trying to build a career and who have limited financial resources would surely be concerned about enforcing their copyright interests. Granted, I do not understand a great deal about these issues and this area of the law, despite my brief experience in patent, trademark and intellectual property (as a paralegal).

Yes, it's possible Nathan's use of the Elton John medley was previously handled by NBC in a prior season and in the lead-up to the Olympic season. The new ice dance team of Bratti/Somerville also used a similar Elton John medley at a few events this season, including at U.S. Nationals and 4CCs.

 

[Moxiejan]

It could be argued that wealthy/prominent music artists would be equally interested in enforcing copyright, from the standpoint of not allowing their music to be used in ways that would diminish reputation — such as for an ad campaign or to promote a disliked politician.

My heightened interest in all this is being an infringed writer who was part of a class-action suit (Reed Elsevier vs. Muchnick) that sought to end unauthorized internet distribution of 30+ years of articles. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court (we won!), but the relatively small monetary settlement wasn’t the key issue. It was to stop the stealing.

 

[skatedreamer]

It could be argued that wealthy/prominent music artists would be equally interested in enforcing copyright, from the standpoint of not allowing their music to be used in ways that would diminish reputation — such as for an ad campaign or to promote a disliked politician.

My heightened interest in all this is being an infringed writer who was part of a class-action suit (Reed Elsevier vs. Muchnick) that sought to end unauthorized internet distribution of 30+ years of articles. The case went all the way to the Supreme Court (we won!), but the relatively small monetary settlement wasn’t the key issue. It was to stop the stealing.

good for you -- so glad things turned out well!

 

[el henry]

Unless NBC truly dropped the ball, Knierim and Frazier *have* permission to skate to this music at the Olympics. K/F don’t need to do a thing.

I agree the financial status or the profile of the artist is not important. Look at Prince’s estate taking down every YouTube skating video.

but Kevin Aymoz and Jason Brown and Maë-Bérénice all skating to Prince at comps. Do you think they all wrote the estate for permissions? I think not. With the blanket license, they should be able to skate live.

And then recordings are another matter....

 

[skatedreamer]

Sure, in legal terms 'zero to do.' In ethical and personal motivation terms, etc., music artists who are trying to build a career and who have limited financial resources would surely be concerned about enforcing their copyright interests. Granted, I do not understand a great deal about these issues and this area of the law, despite my brief experience in patent, trademark and intellectual property (as a paralegal).

Yes, it's possible Nathan's use of the Elton John medley was previously handled by NBC in a prior season and in the lead-up to the Olympic season. The new ice dance team of Bratti/Somerville also used a similar Elton John medley at a few events this season, including at U.S. Nationals and 4CCs.

the article you mentioned above and linked earlier by @el henry indicates that for live performances, the onus is on the broadcaster to deal with the rights:

Luckily for figure skaters, their Olympic routines are considered live performances, and therefore require a much less costly licensing agreement. Also luckily for figure skaters, they’re pretty far removed from both the paperwork and the payment. Instead, the broadcaster—in this case, NBC—is responsible.

NBC's legal eagles would have to be aware of this and presumably took care of it, both for Nathan and for K/F.

Re: Nathan, what lawyer in their right mind would want to mess with the likes of Elton John and a possible infringement suit?

 

[moonvine]

the article you mentioned above and linked earlier by @el henry indicates that for live performances, the onus is on the broadcaster to deal with the rights:

Luckily for figure skaters, their Olympic routines are considered live performances, and therefore require a much less costly licensing agreement. Also luckily for figure skaters, they’re pretty far removed from both the paperwork and the payment. Instead, the broadcaster—in this case, NBC—is responsible.

NBC's legal eagles would have to be aware of this and presumably took care of it, both for Nathan and for K/F.

Re: Nathan, what lawyer in their right mind would want to mess with the likes of Elton John and a possible infringement suit?

But Elton John doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

 

[GretchenG]

Like I said, I can see how the band has a case; because, as you wrote, it's a really dumb error to not get clearance, but I also don't think they missed out on tons of money bc Knierim/Frazier used their music. And sure, that doesn't make much of a difference for the suit bc infringement is infringement, but idk, it comes off to me as if they saw NBC is involved and now hope to cash in.

It's not the skaters' job. I've heard that it's handled either by the USFSA, the venue, who are the broadcaster (NBC). The skaters don't have to get involved. They don't have to call the individual artist to ask permission. Think about it. If they use Elton music are they going to call Elton John or his manager and ask permission? Doesn't work like that. There are two different organizations in the US that handle making sure that music artists get paid for use of their music, ASCAP & BMI.

 

[noskates]

I don't see this situation as a responsibility of the skaters. They have enough to concentrate on and their team should determine if their music is legal or not. Having said that, I think these guys have probably made an indecent living off of their lawsuits. It just smells fishy to me. It was not my favorite piece of music and, quite frankly, they could use the exposure.

 

[skatedreamer]

But Elton John doesn't seem to have a problem with it.

Agreed. I'm sure EJ's attorneys and/or agents were contacted. If it hadn't happened, he would have been within his rights to sue.

I was just making the point that because EJ is so well-known, neglecting any necessary licensing and/or fees would be abysmally foolish. For a lawyer, it might even rise to the level of malpractice, so there's no way any qualified lawyer would let themselves get caught in that trap.

 

[reneerose]

It's not the skaters' job. I've heard that it's handled either by the USFSA, the venue, who are the broadcaster (NBC). The skaters don't have to get involved. They don't have to call the individual artist to ask permission. Think about it. If they use Elton music are they going to call Elton John or his manager and ask permission? Doesn't work like that. There are two different organizations in the US that handle making sure that music artists get paid for use of their music, ASCAP & BMI.

I'm wondering, maybe the Heathens didn't have any agreement with ASCAP or BMI to collect royalties from NBC. I would think if this happens a lot to them they could contract with either entity, but that appears to involve paying those entities money to go chase down their royalties for a cover recording. I wonder if any of that would come out when the judge reviews this case.

 

[skatedreamer]

I'm wondering, maybe the Heathens didn't have any agreement with ASCAP or BMI to collect royalties from NBC. I would think if this happens a lot to them they could contract with either entity, but that appears to involve paying those entities money to go chase down their royalties for a cover recording. I wonder if any of that would come out when the judge review this case.

<snark alert>
Since their dad is a lawyer, lawsuits are probably cheaper for them.
OK, OK, I'll show myself out now.

 

[reneerose]

<snark alert>
Since their dad is a lawyer, lawsuits are probably cheaper for them.
OK, OK, I'll show myself out now.

Hey I had the same thought in the back of my mind, just didn't post it!

 

[skatedreamer]

Hey I had the same thought in the back of my mind, just didn't post it!

See, in my case it came to the front of my mind and then jumped right out.
That just means you’re a better person than I am!

 

[katymay]

It's not the skaters' job. I've heard that it's handled either by the USFSA, the venue, who are the broadcaster (NBC). The skaters don't have to get involved. They don't have to call the individual artist to ask permission. Think about it. If they use Elton music are they going to call Elton John or his manager and ask permission? Doesn't work like that. There are two different organizations in the US that handle making sure that music artists get paid for use of their music, ASCAP & BMI.

I used to work for ASCAP years ago. (First job after grad school).

One use that makes me very suspicious is Sasha's use of Cruella-could be that Russia has a special deal I'm not aware of-but Disney is notorious for denying use of the music they own, and just paying the yearly fee to ASCAP/BMI won't get the music released for use. You have to jump through many hoops to use anything Disney owns, especially anything brand new. It isn't just Disney-there are some bands that are notorious as well-Pink Floyd, Led Zepplin-and yes, Prince. Often as far as figure skaters, I believe that some artists (at least those who actually still own their music) let it slide. Some more obscure artists probably see the exposure as a benefit. NBC would pay a huge ,fee for music broadcast rights, but the music selection still has to be cleared, and I think there are many figure skaters do not know they have to get their music cleared-which is more than a club or organization just paying the yearly fee to ASCAP or BMI.