Should minimum age for seniors be raised?

[CaroLiza_fan]

The problem I have always had with the age ranges were the overlaps. They are far too big.

10 ≤ Basic Novice A > 13
13 ≤ Basic Novice B > 15
10 ≤ Advanced Novice > 15
13 ≤ Junior > 19
15 ≤ Senior

…on the previous 1[SUP]st[/SUP] July.

Like, there is something badly wrong when the age ranges are set up in such a way that it is actually possible to go straight from Novice level to Senior level, completely skipping Junior level.

And it is confusing for people who are not too familiar with the sport when they come in and see that a lot of the skaters in Junior level and Senior level are actually the same age. And it makes them wonder "well, what's the difference?"

I used to be of the opinion that the age ranges needed completely overhauled. And I even made a big post about it, complete with a chart showing proposed new age ranges (here)

Now, though, I think that it is just small tweeks here and there that are needed. Namely:

10 ≤ Basic Novice A > 13
13 ≤ Basic Novice B > 15
10 ≤ Advanced Novice > 15
14 ≤ Junior > 18
16 ≤ Senior

The other tweek I would make is to get rid of this measuring everything from 1[SUP]st[/SUP] July, and have it so that you have to be the required age on the day of the SP.

---

On the other hand, I also think of a case I came across a couple of years ago of a skater who had been happily competing in Novice level for a few years, but then reached the age of 15. She was now too old for Novice level, but did not feel confident enough to move up to Juniors.

Because of the way the levels are set up according to ages, the only option available was to drop back to Beginner level, which had no age limits. And given that this was an extremely experienced skater compared to the other competitors at that level, it is unsurprising that she won the Beginners competition at Nationals.

This was the boost to her confidence that she needed. But the sad thing is that this skater has now given up skating. She and her family have moved back to their home country, and have found that ice time and coaching is just too expensive there. But, that is another issue altogether.

The point I am making is that having everything based strictly on age does not work for everybody. If somebody has self-confidence issues, finding themselves in the position this girl did could completely destroy what little confidence they do have. As it turned out, this story had a happy outcome. But, the same may not be the case for others in the same situation.

If the levels were based more on ability than age, then this sort of situation is less likely to arise.

But, other situations could arise if there are a group of skaters the same age and some move ahead of the others. Which could lead to:

• the ones moving ahead bullying the others
• confidence issues for the ones that aren't advancing as fast
• the ones at a lower level taking drastic measures to try to catch up, some of which could lead to eating disorders

It is finding the balance between all these things that is tricky. And that is why I would not want to be one of the people in the ISU making a decision on this.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[FSGMT]

OR they can start incentivizing the artistic/PCS aspect of the sport by not automatically giving PCS boosts for people who land "difficult" jumps, and have "consistent" technique.

OTOH, someone with really great jumps, who's put time into learning them with proper dedication and care, should theoretically be able to compete with someone who's good at the artistic aspect. A teenager should definitely be able to compete with the veterans based on the strength of their technique, while still working on the artistic aspect. "Art"+"Sport" doesn't mean the athletes should automatically have both to win, but that both should be celebrated. This might turn out to be nothing but the usual repressing of someone who's up-and-coming out of fear, and the usual politicking, and the usual snobbery against, and putting down of, someone who isn't deemed "artistic" enough because of someone's flawed interpretation of figure skating. Awful.

In theory I agree: one of the main judging prolems last season for me was the way PCS were given freely to Zagitova and Chen, the first progressing from 6s to 9s in one year with the same program, the second getting 91 PCS for an empty and boring FS at Worlds (I was there) just packed with difficult jumps. BUT I don't see how scoring well PCS would improve things: as you say, young skaters would attempt more difficult elements to make up for the lost PCS points, and this would certainly involve an even higher risk. We have two different problems: PCS (the never-ending one ) and health/longevity of the skaters. I don't think the two solutions have much to do with each other.

In theory it sounds good but I'm not sure what exactly it would accomplish. Raising the minimum age is not going to make talented juniors stop training quads or lessen their training regimen, not when they're all competing with each other. If evidence becomes available that quad jumps cause skeletal damage in children, then the solution is to ban that element under a certain age, not just raise the age for seniors. For example, FINA does not allow competitive 10m platform diving for kids under 14 because repeated impacts with the water from that height is known to damage growth plates and stunt the full adult height. But until such evidence is available (hopefully without too many guinea pigs), the desired effect of such a move seems unclear and poorly founded.

I agree: banning quads from Juniors could be a sensible idea! The problem is: how long do we want to wait until we have this evidence? Do we want to see young amazing talents ruined by overtraining quads?

(Just one small thing: the word "Senior" refers to AGE not QUALITY (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/senior), so even if you are the best of the best but your age is Junior you should stay with the Juniors)

 

[chopinskate]

In theory I agree: one of the main judging prolems last season for me was the way PCS were given freely to Zagitova and Chen, the first progressing from 6s to 9s in one year with the same program, the second getting 91 PCS for an empty and boring FS at Worlds (I was there) just packed with difficult jumps. BUT I don't see how scoring well PCS would improve things: as you say, young skaters would attempt more difficult elements to make up for the lost PCS points, and this would certainly involve an even higher risk. We have two different problems: PCS (the never-ending one ) and health/longevity of the skaters. I don't think the two solutions have much to do with each other.

Learning quads might be limited to the ones with more jumping talent at a young age, if the PCS side were properly incentivized.

 

[Noolan]

ISU keeps saying their goal is to make figure skating more interesting to the viewers. Well then make sure the strongest skaters all get to compete against each other on the biggest stage. That's a very basic rule that applies to every sport, that's all people want to see. Separating the best athletes into various groups and preventing them from competing against each other can't be a good idea. Imagine how much more interesting the events would be if current juniors were allowed to compete with the seniors. From a point of spectator, that's what I want to see, that's fun.

The real problem isn't age, the problem is the fact that judges are currently horrible at judging pcs. Components should be giving the edge to older mature skaters, but with current judging you get a high component score no matter what your skating looks like as long as your TES is high enough. Which is exactly why juniors are beating seniors. Fix that problem and older skaters will be able to compete with the new generation.

 

[ragdoll]

Yes, the age should be at least 17. I'm not saying that for health reasons or anything but because I want to see mature people when I watch senior skating - not children. Regardless of their technical skills, they belong in junior skating. With a few exceptions they usually don't have the kind of artistry I want to see. I don't watch other sports so I don't know but are there age requirements in skiing, hockey etc?

 

[Shayuki]

Yes, the age should be at least 17. I'm not saying that for health reasons or anything but because I want to see mature people when I watch senior skating - not children. Regardless of their technical skills, they belong in junior skating. With a few exceptions they usually don't have the kind of artistry I want to see. I don't watch other sports so I don't know but are there age requirements in skiing, hockey etc?

Well, many of the older skaters don't have such artistry either. So what about those? Is that then okay, simply because they are old? And what if there was a young skater with such artistry? This is probably the weakest argument there can be. A skater's artistry should be judged by the merits of their artistry, not their birth certificate.


Ah, and of course, then we get to the "competitive sport" aspect. I am sure that ice shows and galas exist for artistry. It would be a shame is technical prowess stopped being any kind of a factor. One Kostner placing high with completely broken programs already is one too many.

 

[Fruitpie]

Yes, the age should be at least 17. I'm not saying that for health reasons or anything but because I want to see mature people when I watch senior skating - not children. Regardless of their technical skills, they belong in junior skating. With a few exceptions they usually don't have the kind of artistry I want to see. I don't watch other sports so I don't know but are there age requirements in skiing, hockey etc?

The goal, which brought the Swiss historic bronze in Sochi, was scored by 15 y.o. girl. And it's an ice hockey, not some ice skating.
And I want to watch the best. Gubanova, Scherbakova and Kostornaya, for example, whose skating is 100 times better that 99% of 20 years olds and older.

 

[charlotte14]

16 years old maybe?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I would be more compelled to consider 17 or even 18 if the overwhelming majority of skaters that I’ve known personally didn’t or won’t retire from competition by the age 17 or 18. Srsly. Go to any ice rink during freestyle sessions and count how many skaters are over 18. I’ve known maybe a handful of people who have continued competing into their 20’s but most just got bored or turned their focus on college or coaching. Several have gone the Disney on Ice route

TBH: Without a true professional circuit there isn’t much opportunity to earn a living from being a competitive skater like in other sports where the average age is older. . It makes sense to be done when still young and geared to go to college. I don’t think too many gymnast continue far past 20 yrs old which is a pretty fair comparison regarding similar sports IMO. Maybe it would make sense too if it was a collegiate sport but we all know the judging system prevents it from being taken seriously in that capacity.

Just being realistic here....I know several skaters who compete at all different levels from elite to lower novice and most skaters retire before turning 20. It’s just the nature of the sport post pro circuit.. I certainly don’t believe the “safety” of the athletes will become any better from raising age limits. In fact...I can imagine some skaters going to certain extremes just to try and last until an older age.

The “mature” argument is always funny for me to read but something I put zero stock in as for holding much meaning. Just look in the Lutz corner at how everytime someone asks if they are too old to learn to become a competitive skater the harsh responses people give out. Kids start young and peak young. By the time they turn sixteen they’ve likely been training like what....around 12 years. :think:

 

[russianfan]

hehe... seems like some people are afraid that their faves won't get any podium in the next years, when supertalented junior squad will start invading seniors

 

[Noolan]

Yes, the age should be at least 17. I'm not saying that for health reasons or anything but because I want to see mature people when I watch senior skating - not children. Regardless of their technical skills, they belong in junior skating. With a few exceptions they usually don't have the kind of artistry I want to see. I don't watch other sports so I don't know but are there age requirements in skiing, hockey etc?

Which is why it's so great that half of the score is specifically created to judge the artistry. Juniors shouldn't be banned from major competitions, instead they should be judged harshly for the immature artistry they present. But everyone should be allowed to compete with everyone in my opinion. Artificial roadblocks shouldn't stop the best in the field from getting the biggest medals.

 

[champs]

I don't understand the logic in raising the senior entry age limit as a way of 1) reducing unfairness between skaters of different weight/body types and of 2) protecting kids.

1) some child prodigies with quads at a pretty young age endowed with lucky genes or with a strong will to endure severely regulated diet may succeed in maintaining their juvenile body type and weight past the growth spurt period, in which case the proposal achieves nothing towards that goal.

2) Like one poster said above, the only way to protect kids from skeletal damage or whatever harm due to over-practicing quads is to ban quads, as coaches know that skaters starting to work on quads at the younger age is not just to utilize advantageous body types but because of ease of letting the technique sink deep in their (brain/muscle) memories and they would still continue to train their skaters to practice quads as early as they could even if a higher senior age limit were in effect.

I think the only way to meaningfully reduce unfairness between skaters of different weight/body types is to divide competitions into different categories based on weight or some kind of body type measurement (chest/hip size?) and no clue how feasible this would be.

 

[TheBallerina]

For me the Olympic Champion or the World Champion represents the best skater of the world. If she (/he) is 15 years old, so be it, let's praise her, not ban her from participating.:thumbsup:

 

[Roast Toast]

I don't really understand the reactions in this thread. Even if the age limit is raised all the relevant juniors will be eligible in Beijing anyway.

Currently it might seem unfair if the best jumper in the world is 14 and unable to compete against seniors. It certainly stung to see Mao miss her shot by less than a month back then. But what if the best jumper is 12? What if she is 10? At some point you have to accept that the age limit is chosen more or less arbitrarily. I personally feel that 15 is too young and encourages puberty delaying tactics. It's not like it's impossible to transition a talented junior through puberty. Medvedeva did it.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Which is why it's so great that half of the score is specifically created to judge the artistry. Juniors shouldn't be banned from major competitions, instead they should be judged harshly for the immature artistry they present. But everyone should be allowed to compete with everyone in my opinion. Artificial roadblocks shouldn't stop the best in the field from getting the biggest medals.

Maybe it’s a different topic but...how the heck does one objectively judge “artistry”? Why would mature artistry be worth more than exuberant and youthful artistry? Why should artistry even count for more than say...10 pts? Who determines the scale of value for these things and where can it be quantified. I always laugh a little when I see things like “if PCS were awarded correctly” but maybe there is a way to quantify it and put actual meaning behind it.

I’m actually really happy that PCS has gone up and veterans aren’t given such an advantage as in the past. Sure..people say things like “mature presentation” and “well rounded skating” but often PCS was used to prop up veterans regardless of their performances a la “reputation” scoring. It was a far bigger problem IMO than technically proficient skaters jacking up the scores with overwhelmingly difficult programs. I like all types of skaters but the technical results should be the first priority in an athletic competition.

As for ladies skating....I thought JGPF was significantly better than GPF.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I would be more compelled to consider 17 or even 18 if the overwhelming majority of skaters that I’ve known didn’t or won’t retire from competition by the age 17 or 18. Srsly. Go to any ice rink during freestyle sessions and count how many skaters are over 18. I’ve known maybe one or two people who have continued competing into their 20’s but most just got bored or turned their focus on college or coaching.

TBH: Without a true professional circuit their isn’t much opportunity to earn a living from being a competitive skater like in other sports where the average age is older. . It makes sense to be done when still young and geared to go to college. I don’t think too many gymnast continue far past 20 yrs old which is a pretty fair comparison regarding similar sports IMO. Maybe it would make sense too if it was a collegiate sport but we all know the judging system prevents it from being taken seriously in that capacity.

Just being realistic here....I know several skaters who compete at all different levels from elite to lower novice and most skaters retire before turning 20. It’s just the nature of the sport post pro circuit.. I certainly don’t believe the “safety” of the athletes will become any better from raising age limits. In fact...I can imagine some skaters going to certain extremes just to try and last until an older age. The “mature” argument is always funny for me to read but something I put zero stock in as for holding much meaning.

Sam, as ever, I completely agree with you.

You have hit the nail on the head with what the problems are in trying to establish age ranges for the levels:

many skaters reach their peak in their mid-teens, and then retire by their early twenties​

If this were a normal sports situation where people got better over a longer period of time, reaching their peak in their late 20's / early 30's, and then started to decline in their mid-30's, then I would have no hesitation in using the chart I made out a few years ago, and amending it so that Senior level did not start until 18 or even 21.

But, figure skating is not like that. It is a sport with a much earlier peak. And, so, everything needs to be compressed. And it makes it much harder to establish the boundaries.

So, with all this in mind, that is why I came to the conclusion that the best compromise for figure skating would be to not have all the age levels I previously proposed, but instead just make small tweeks to the existings levels, so that the minimum age for Seniors is at 16, and the maximum age for Juniors is at 18.

And I totally agree that for the figure skating career path to work properly there needs to be a proper Pro circuit. Because, once you have passed your competitive peak, there is nowhere to go. The skaters are left all at sea.

See what I did there?

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Fruitpie]

I agree with people here. If you want to protect children, you should ban quads and 3a in juniors. Rising the age limit will only bring more fatal injuries and nothing more.

 

[Rina Rin]

When the Orser was practicing quads with the baby Gogolev he did not think how this would affect his health? And why does this child need such jumps before reaching the junior level?
And now he talks about the harm of the quads for children. It's certainly very funny. Oh yeah, he's talking about girls. After all, only girls have injuries after jumping. And boys 10-12 years old will certainly be healthy. Even if they jump a quad lutz.

 

[hanyuyuzuru1207]

This is non official talk right? Or is this talk ISU official?

 

[Harriet]

I'd be happy for the Senior-eligible age to be raised to 16 for singles skaters and the younger partner in pairs/ice dance. That's the age you can leave school and move into full-time work, and the age you can get a learner's permit, ie the age you can take the first steps into adulthood. There's a certain acknowledgement of increasing mental and emotional maturity in that. I think it's an appropriate age for skaters* to start taking the first steps into adult competition, too.

*And athletes in other fields, too to be honest.