2017 Four Continents Ladies FS

[Mathman]

I just saw the NBC United States TV coverage, with Tara, Johnie and Tanith commentating. They showed Mai, Mirai, Karen, Miriah, Elizabeth, Gabby and Kaetlyn. Here's what I got out of it: land your jumps (Mai and Mirai), win a medal. Nothing else counts.

 

[KatGrace1925]

I just saw the NBC United States TV coverage, with Tara, Johnie and Tanith commentating. They showed Mai, Mirai, Karen, Miriah, Elizabeth, Gabby and Kaetlyn. Here's what I got out of it: land your jumps (Mai and Mirai), win a medal. Nothing else counts.

The girls who didn't land their jumps looked miserable on the ice, so it brought the whole performance down to me.

 

[skatelikewind1966]

Exactly. They don't have to reward it under the current rules but they can if they like it.

You are 100% correct - the judges don't have to reward it but can if they want - this type of "officiating" would not last in any other sport but it is how FS operates! And, IMO, this is exactly why FS has not caught on with most viewers, the subjectivity of it all makes no sense. I love the sport and started judging, going to seminar after seminar around the country, talking to many people but after sometime decided it wasn't for me because there are so many differing opinions from so many judges at so many levels. To see 1/10 of a point, 1/4 of a point, a full point, etc. go the wrong way can make a big difference when there are many hands in the pot. Sorry, just had to comment on this and I hope one day there will be a solution.

 

[Sackie]

I just saw the NBC United States TV coverage, with Tara, Johnie and Tanith commentating. They showed Mai, Mirai, Karen, Miriah, Elizabeth, Gabby and Kaetlyn. Here's what I got out of it: land your jumps (Mai and Mirai), win a medal. Nothing else counts.

Funny Johnie also clearly states that Mirai took off from the wrong edge on her 3L - yet she never got dinged for it! She didn't even get an unclear edge call! Go figure!

 

[Mathman]

Kaetlyn's free skate was scary, she's had such a good season, I did not expect that.

Even though she fell four times, you could tell that this was a champion on the ice. Once she sat down after the jump was landed, once she seemed to stumble after tghe element was long done. That fall on the triple Salcho hurt and she wasn't able to continue at the same pace. But the first minute or so was enough, for me, to tell that this was the cream of the crop who just had a bad day.

 

[KatGrace1925]

Even though she fell four times, you could tell that this was a champion on the ice. Once she sat down after the jump was landed, once she seemed to stumble after tghe element was long done. That fall on the triple Salcho hurt and she wasn't able to continue at the same pace. But the first minute or so was enough, for me, to tell that this was the cream of the crop who just had a bad day.

I agree! I have always loved her skating. Every skater has a day that is just an off day. She has all the goods to do well at worlds!

 

[Sackie]

I think she only fell 3 times!

 

[Mathman]

Funny Johnie also clearly states that Mirai took off from the wrong edge on her 3L - yet she never got dinged for it! She didn't even get an unclear edge call! Go figure!

I don't know about that, but Johnnie did make the comment that Mirai was able to land all of her jumps by letting the performance and the choreography go and just stalking every jump methodically. He, and especially Tara, were pretty mean to Mai Mihara on the performance side, too, saying that she was juniorish (especially skating to Cinderella -- only Boyang Jin's Spiderman music was worse, according to Tara. )).

Maybe so. But "juniorish" and "methodical jumping" didn't fall down and got first and second in the free skate.

 

[Mathman]

I think she only fell 3 times!

I guess it just seemed like four, poor thing.

 

[skatespin]

If USFSA doesn't send Mirai to world's than they are pretty dumb. They can decide who gets bumped. Obviously it won't be Ashley. The 3 olympic spot chances are looking slimmer and slimmer for US. Ashley and Mirai are the best realistic chance we have now with Gracie and Polina out.

I know it sounds harsh, and I totally feel for all the ladies who get left off the team. I was heartbroken for Mirai in 2014, but that's the way it is, skaters have resumes, they are more than just one competition (especially in countries with deep fields). Out of Bell and Chen the only one who has an international result that could hold up somewhat at world's is Bell at 2016 Skate America. Between the two of them at this competition (including SP and FS) 1 triple-triple was completed (Bell's flawed 3flip-half loop-3sal). There is a difference between competing at nationals and going in front of international judges, competing against skaters from other nations, getting lower PCS due to lack of reputation, having a panel that gives strict UR calls, and having to put up with traveling halfway around the world.

 

[skatelikewind1966]

Yes, Tom Z related this in an interview with the Blade Boys' Ted Flett last season, so it's not hearsay. It came directly from Tom Z, that people told him Mirai would be a problem -- something along the lines of her not having enough training discipline. I think it's just petty. Tom Z however knows skating talent when he sees it. Plus he mentioned how he'd always loved Mirai's skating. He was excited to work with her, especially after sitting down to talk with her and making sure she understood what his requirements would be. She was on the same page, because she truly loves skating. I just think there were some family issues, and then too much over-expectation of her being the second coming of Michelle Kwan, as I said earlier. By now, US fed has got to know, there's only one Michelle Kwan. They need to treat skaters as individuals, not as clones.

I can't say that Frank was bad-mouthing Mirai. Tom Z did not mention any names. I do not think that Frank would stoop that low. It was more likely US fed officials. Unless you are Gracie Gold, if you are encouraged to go to Frank and it doesn't work out and you leave him and you were perceived to be a problem, your career is toast. IOW, they tried to phase Mirai out and gave her a hard time in the scoring after she'd left Frank. Of course, Mirai made mistakes too and she's had trouble living up to her talent. But I have to say: the wrong kind of interference by U.S. fed has never helped any skaters' situations.

Great post, enjoyed your thoughts and first-hand knowledge. Tom is a wonderful coach but looking at it from another angle, he had nothing to lose by taking Mirai. If she continued to not perform up to her ability, he could have simply threw up his hands and said I tried, but this gal is too difficult to work with. No one would have been upset with Tom and all the blame would have fallen squarely back on Mirai, who is difficult to work with (though athletes who have innate talent are THE MOST difficult to work with and are generally the most sensitive - having 'the right' teacher, not coach, for this type of talent is critical).

On the other hand, if he was able to work with her or guide her in the right direction by helping her perform to her talent level, all the accolades would go to Tom. He would be looked at as the mastermind behind the closed curtain, the coach (teacher) who saved the day. Tom is very well respected by the USFSA and his opinions matter, greatly. Just look at the "career" of the young one in his stable, Tessa Hong, who has all the talent as well but has been saddled with missteps. There are a # of these young, competitors with innate talent and I for one am looking at the next 2-3 years to see if maturity helps them like it has helped Mirai.

 

[Mathman]

If USFSA doesn't send Mirai to world's then they are pretty dumb.

I always looked at it this way. You have the semi-finals (Nationals). The winners advance to the finals (Worlds). If you want to go to the finals, you have to win the semifinals.

I guess that is sort of old-fashioned these days. Unfortunately, Mirai got whipsawed coming and going as the USFSA switches gradually to a new way of looking at things.

Anyway, I thought that Karen Chen's freeskate wasn't a complete disaster -- she just left too many points on the table. In Finland maybe she will find a new tack that promises a better wind. :yes:

 

[Sackie]

But for those of you suggesting the Marai go to worlds do you really think she would skate as well there knowing that she took a spot away form someone else and the pressure was then on her to get 3 spots for the USA.
I really don't think she would - in fact I think she would end up going back to having a lot of under-rotations.

It also surprises me that so many are suggesting this when last year so many were upset and came up with all kinds of rumors as to why Firus dropped out and Nam went to worlds for Canada.

 

[skatespin]

I always looked at it this way. You have the semi-finals (Nationals). The winners advance to the finals (Worlds). If you want to go to the finals, you have to win the semifinals.

I guess that is sort of old-fashioned these days. Unfortunately, Mirai got whipsawed coming and going as the USFSA switches gradually to a new way of looking at things.

Anyway, I thought that Karen Chen's freeskate wasn't a complete disaster -- she just left too many points on the table. In Finland maybe she will find a new tack that promises a better wind. :yes:

Karen has never really had a great international result though, so it seems really unlikely. Her two good showings were nationals 2015 and 2017 and her scores there would not have matched internationally with the UR on the 3-3 combos.

Also, nationals is not the only official selection criteria for world's. Hence Mirai not being sent to Sochi.

 

[Osmond4gold]

I think she only fell 3 times!

And one of these was after completing the jump.

 

[Mathman]

Also, nationals is not the only official selection criteria for world's.

I know. That's what I mean by saying the the USFSA is gradually switching over to a new way of thinking.

Back in the days of Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn and Dorothy Hamill, that's exactly how it was. Even up until this year the rule was that at least the national champion would automatically go to worlds.

What I liked about that system was that the rule was cut and dried and everyone knew what was at stake at U.S. Nationals: win or go home. Now inclusion on the Worlds' team is up to the vagaries of a Committee meeting behind closed doors. I never liked Committees much.

 

[jaylee]

Even though she fell four times, you could tell that this was a champion on the ice. Once she sat down after the jump was landed, once she seemed to stumble after tghe element was long done. That fall on the triple Salcho hurt and she wasn't able to continue at the same pace. But the first minute or so was enough, for me, to tell that this was the cream of the crop who just had a bad day.

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Kaetlyn has all the technical/tangible skills and abilities she needs to be a champion, but I'm beginning to wonder if she has a champion's mentality/focus/guts. And it wasn't just her messy FS that made me wonder. The fall on the 2A in the SP was ridiculous. She can do a 2A in her sleep, this is an important competition, an ISU championship title is available and she's having her best season ever. You've got to take advantage of these opportunities when they're there. The win for the SP was hers for the taking and she totally whiffed. She was still in medal contention after that, but that FS was an unprecedented meltdown.

Super frustrating. I'd love to see Kaetlyn on the Worlds podium, and it can still happen because anything can happen. But right now it seems like Kaetlyn is this frustrating mixture of Sasha Cohen and young Carolina Kostner--consistently inconsistent with flashes of brilliance and an occasional dose of disaster.

 

[skatespin]

I know. That's what I mean by saying the the USFSA is gradually switching over to a new way of thinking.

Back in the days of Peggy Fleming, Janet Lynn and Dorothy Hamill, that's exactly how it was. Even up until this year the rule was that at least the national champion would automatically go to worlds.

What I liked about that system was that the rule was cut and dried and everyone knew what was at stake at U.S. Nationals: win or go home. Now inclusion on the Worlds' team is up to the vagaries of a Committee meeting behind closed doors. I never liked Committees much.

I don't like the committee's either, but i've accepted that they are a necessary evil, especially where the situation isn't black and white.

 

[Sasha'sSpins]

I enjoyed reading the PBPs! Thanks everyone!

HUGE congrats to Mai, Gabby and especially my darling Mirai!! Mai deserved the win although she's still a bit juniorish for me. Mirai's mistake in the SP cost her the silver. Good job from Gabby. In spite of mistakes she hung on to 2nd thanks to her strong SP.

Woo hoo! Great skate Mirai! Still lacking in expression during her FS, but she got those jumps around! Mirai was getting some big air time on those jumps, especially the double axel! Hopefully she can get that triple axel next year! She could have won this thing if only she hadn't flubbed her 3R in the SP. Also, her PCS scores keeps holding her down. I wish she could find a choreographer that could really get her to emote out there - like she used to in her younger days! She needs to get her speed up too and work harder on those in between transitions, etc. Overall though, I'm so happy for my girl!! She soared to burnished bronze! And whatever happens next year, she will always know that she medalled on Olympic ice at this year's 4CCs! Oh, what was up with the criss cross tape on Mirai's back? That worried me some. And no more downbeat music next year please Mirai! You need FIGHTING music for the Olympic season!

I think the world team will stay the same. The motivation for Mirai is different. She knew this was her last completion so she went out focused. She also wanted to redeem herself after such a poor free at nationals. So I expected her to so well.

Mariah hasn't competed as much in high level events. This was her first ISU. She's never gone further than SA. Plus she's feeling the pressure to perform by USFS. So I expected some rough performances.

Karen was very disapointed. But she just had the flu, lost practice time, and is also dealing with the pressure as well. It's sad, but this is what I expected from her too. Just not so low! Yikes!

The world team is fixed. Just like it was last year when Gracie bombed in 4CC. If it weren't for Polina's injury, Mirai wouldn't have gone to worlds at all. We just have to pray both Karen and Mariah can focus and put two good skates together at worlds. Just the way it is sadly.

I agree. AFAIK they've never taken anyone off of the Worlds team after 4CCs. Mirai needed to do well here and she did. She needs to keep it going for the Olympic season.

I bet the predictions will be a mess...practically everyone put Kaetlyn on the podium (and for the win)

I wasn't so sure since Kaetlyn has a history of being inconsistent especially in the FS.

Oh yes of course, I suppose it has been too long. I didn't expect her to medal coming 5th in short. it is a chicken and egg situation with her... her career is totally not what I expected after Vancouver.

Mirai's career wasn't what I had hoped for either after Vancouver (although she did quite well in 2011, also winning bronze at 4CCs that year). That was also the year of Tibia Gate. When Rachael Flatt went to Worlds injured and didn't tell anyone instead of withdrawing like she should have to allow Mirai a shot at Worlds. Mirai should have been on that team anyway. I'll always say that Flatt was over marked and held up at Nationals. USFS was on her side over Mirai consistently. People also forget that after 2011, Mirai had a growth spurt and her body changed completely. She's had to work hard to get into top form and work with a larger body type than some others have.

What do you think this competition was, an exhibition?

Quite a lot of ISU points were at stake. And third place money ain't chopped liver.

Well put!! And not only were ISU points and money at stake. This 4CCs will add to Mirai's 'body of work' that the USFS will be looking at come Olympic selection next year. Hopefully Mirai will have good competitions in the 'B' events and a great GP season since Nationals will supposedly not be the only deciding factor. Nagasu simply has to be consistent and do very well in the GPs next season or it's going to be 2014 all over again.

When you look at others scores this year then yes it is all relative. I mean Karen who is really an unknown except for being the new USA champ, gets 59 points for her not so great skate then yes someone who has been winning medals this year and made the GPF will score higher n PCS.
As well lets not forget Gracie's bad FS this season that scored 64.56 and 62.33! And Ashley scored 68.56 for her terrible GP free in China!

Why is it USA ladies are allowed to have bad skates and still get high PCS but as soon as it happens to someone else it is a terrible thing!

Who said that the US ladies are 'allowed' to have bad skates and get high PCS? There is PLENTY of bitching against Gracie and Ashley in this forum and others when they have skated poorly yet receive high PCS scores. Not just from me but from many other AMERICAN fans.

Funny Johnie also clearly states that Mirai took off from the wrong edge on her 3L - yet she never got dinged for it! She didn't even get an unclear edge call! Go figure!

I recorded and just watched the NBC broadcast. You misheard Johnny. On Mirai's 3L, Johnny CLEARLY states "Here, great triple lutz, nice OUTSIDE edge, beautiful landing".

 

[skatespin]

I suppose that's one way to look at it. Kaetlyn has all the technical/tangible skills and abilities she needs to be a champion, but I'm beginning to wonder if she has a champion's mentality/focus/guts. And it wasn't just her messy FS that made me wonder. The fall on the 2A in the SP was ridiculous. She can do a 2A in her sleep, this is an important competition, an ISU championship title is available and she's having her best season ever. You've got to take advantage of these opportunities when they're there. The win for the SP was hers for the taking and she totally whiffed. She was still in medal contention after that, but that FS was an unprecedented meltdown.

Super frustrating. I'd love to see Kaetlyn on the Worlds podium, and it can still happen because anything can happen. But right now it seems like Kaetlyn is this frustrating mixture of Sasha Cohen and young Carolina Kostner--consistently inconsistent with flashes of brilliance and an occasional dose of disaster.

I almost feel like she has too much power and it's difficult for her to control. There was one jump in the FS where she looked like she had it and then abruptly fell, that's more unusual to see from a skater. It could also be stamina too, because she tends to always mess up on jumps in the second half. As a skater myself, it really is that much harder to do jumps that come later on. You get tired, the legs and body feel different and this can trigger pops from exhaustion and not being ready, instead of pops from nerves.